Topic: Oh crap, I completely forgot...

[idolminds]

...about Sept 11th! Thank you national television for reminding me that I should never forget! I'll be sure to follow your advice this time, I swear!

[Xessive]

You just reminded it's my friend's birthday! Honestly that's the only significance of the day for me.. No offence to anyone ofcourse.

[Ace_O_Spades]

Well... it's 9/11 tomorrow, and it has stopped and made me think about the events of the past five years... and it has made me think about the true impact of 9/11.

This is what 9/11 says to me: "LIVE IN FEAR!!!! REMEMBER TERRORISM CAN STRIKE ANYWHERE, AT ANY TIME"

Might as well not even leave the house.

It was a day that sounded the death knell for civil liberties in the good ol US of A...

Yes, it was the worst terrorist attack on US soil, maybe I'm the most insensitive bastard in the world, but in comparison to the deaths Americans have dished out in the middle east, the 9/11 terrorist attacks are but a drop in a bottomless bucket. It's all from differing perspectives.

You can't deny some people will be CELEBRATING the deaths caused on 9/11. I'm not one of them, but I'm just viewing it from an outside perspective. And let's not forget, the 9/11 commission shows, there was ample opportunity to avoid it. And last I checked, you guys weren't even after Bin Laden anymore. And last I checked, there was no link between Iraq and Al Qaeda... LAST I CHECKED, CANADA WAS MOPPING UP YOUR HUGE FUCKING MESS IN AFGHANISTAN.

If anyone here lost loved ones in the attacks, by all means, mourn and remember them... But please, please, don't sit idly by as shit like THIS  goes down in your once fair country. All in the name of fighting a state of mind.... a fight that is as endless and as pointless as the war on drugs.

There will always be extremists who hate you, they will always be trying to attack you, you WON'T stop them all... 9/11 proves this. Turning into a police state means that those who carried out the vicious attacks have successfully completed their mission FAR beyond the grave.

ter‧ror‧ism  /ˈtɛrəˌrɪzəm/ Pronunciation[ter-uh-riz-uhm] Pronunciation Key -
–noun
1.   the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2.   the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.   a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

So remember the day, but for the right reasons. Be vigilant, but not oppressive. Be prepared, but not overzealously so.

It's been quoted so many times, but it fits so perfectly... He who would give up a little liberty to gain a little security deserves neither and loses both.

[Cobra951]

Dont get me started. 9/11 was a huge tragedy for America, the living and the dead. We have not dished out nearly enough death in response to it.

[Ace_O_Spades]

Haven't you now?

How does the life of one Afghani civillian weigh against one American civillian?

[Quemaqua]

Let's make a comparitive statement to yours:

Fuck all the liberal scum that comes out of Canada.  No offense.

[Ace_O_Spades]

I don't understand how that is a comparitive statement... but I can play too

Fuck all the conservative fear mongering bible thumpers in the United States

no offense.


... cmon Que, I pegged you as being more eloquent.

[Cobra951]

[As my last "contribution" to this thread, I'm editing this.  I can't pretend I didn't say what I said, so I'm not removing what I wish I hadn't said.  I'll just comment on it.]

There is no moral equivalence here.  We are fighting a war that was declared on us, no differently than Pearl Harbor got the US fully into World War 2.  We pursue combatants, not innocents.  Innocents may die unintentionally, as they do in any war.  But you know what, you fucking prick [this insult was uncalled for, and I apologize]?  I don't give a rat's ass about anyone who collaborates or sympathizes with any of those rag-headed bastards [comment was directed strictly at the enemy, not everyone who practices Islam and/or wears a turban] who are trying to send the world back 10 centuries with an Islamic apocalypse.  Teheran should be a radioactive crater right fucking now.  [It may yet come to this, but the comment came from a blind rage, not careful thought.]  That's the epicenter of this departure from humanity, and like the tumor that it is, it needs to be burned off ASAP, before any more cancerous growth spreads to places where real human beings are trying to live and breathe [and hopefully there are better ways to do it than to turn the desert into glass].

So tell me, what do you think about how much I value one American vs one motherfucking rag-headed Islamo-fascist animal now?  [Once again, the comment is directed at the hated enemy, no one else.  A mortal enemy should be hated and vilified, to promote a united moral front against him.  He should be understood only as far as it is necessary to facilitate his destruction.  This I can say easily even with a cool head.]

[idolminds]

My funny went wrong, it seems.

[Cobra951]

idol, was this all a joke, man?  Christ.  Some things are just not funny. I'm sorry I lost my cool.  This incident first and foremost killed a lot of innocents, and derailed the progress of this country toward more peace and prosperity.  It shook the business world to the core, and as a result, everything suddenly dried up for a lot of people, including little-old me.  About 4 months after it, the company I was working for had no choice but to lay me off.  It was a fairly small company who depended on large telecomm's for its business, and they choked off spending in a hurry.  My whole world fell apart a piece at a time afterward.  I lost no one on 9/11/2001, not to death anyway.  But the personal effects were deep and painful nevertheless.  The rage that seethes beneath the surface can't always be supressed.  Sorry I lost it, regardless.

[Quemaqua]

I don't even have anything else to say.  I hear you say the same things over and over again, and I honestly don't hear anything but one-sided bias.  For instance - I'm not a bible thumper.  I'm not a fear monger.  I'm only half conservative.  But because I completely disagree with you half the time, that makes me a conservative, fear mongering bible thumper.  That shit don't fly with me, nor does your blind loyalty to your own country, which is just as sad as anyone's blind loyalty to any country.

The fact is, those people that died in the 9/11 tragedy were not the government.  They were fucking people.  And anybody that wants to play devil's advocate with that can go fuck themselves.  Say what you want about the government and the American way of life, but fuck you if you don't acknowledge that it was a tragedy that deserves every bit of this outrage.  I have no love for my own government.  I don't vote because I think the whole American political system is a complete sham.  But if you want me to say that the radical Islamic war machine is anything other than a group of terrorist dogs who should be shot in the street, you're looking in the wrong place.

I'm done with this conversation.  Completely.  I don't need to aggravate myself any further about a subject nobody gives enough of a shit about to even get their fucking facts straight.

EDIT - I don't think that qualifies as "losing it", do you?  Maybe it does.  I don't know.  I lost my job because of 9/11 as well (absolutely directly - I worked for United), and was unemployed for 7 months because of it.  And I actually liked that job, unlike the shit I do now.

EDIT x2 - And Kams, I don't want you to think there's anything personal at work here.  You and I disagree politically like fucking crazy, but I still think you're a cool dude, and I still respect you.  I may get heated about this, and I may wish you'd look at things differently, but it doesn't mean I'm trying to aim anything directly at you.  I'd still hang out with you any day of the week.

[Ace_O_Spades]

There is no moral equivalence here.  We are fighting a war that was declared on us no differently than Pearl Harbor got the US fully into World War 2.

From their point of view you guys started it with your decades of support for their enemies... It's all relative. No, I don't sympathize with Al Qaeda... calling for the deaths of Westerners is sick and twisted and Bin Laden and all his supporters deserve to be brought to justice. But he's currently a free man while Saddam sits on trial. Saddam didn't start that war, Bin Laden did. Saddam didn't support Al Qaeda, he thought they were a threat to his regime. Why is Bin Laden still a free man??

We pursue combatants, not innocents.  Innocents may die unintentionally, as they do in any war.  But you know what, you fucking prick?  I don't give a rat's ass about anyone who collaborates or sympathizes with any of those rag-headed bastards who are trying to send the world back 10 centuries with an Islamic apocalypse.  Teheran should be a radioactive crater right fucking now.  That's the epicenter of this departure from humanity, and like the tumor that it is, it needs to be burned off ASAP, before any more cancerous growth spreads to places where real human beings are trying to live and breathe.

  you really epitomize everything I hate in a bigoted American. And I used to respect you... shame. It is your imperialistic foreign policy that got the Islamists mad at you in the first place. Take off your blinders, take a step back, and really think about what you just said. Please... The ad hominem was a nice touch too.

If being an ignorant, slothful, bigoted American is your model for humanity, I don't want to be a part of the human race anymore.

So tell me, what do you think about how much I value one American vs one motherfucking rag-headed Islamo-fascist animal now?

I value the Islamo-fascist more than you at the moment... to be honest. And I think America deserves any and all woe that your ham-handed attempt at nation building will bring you.

[edit]

LARGE parts of this post were uncalled for, but I don't want to axe them, because quite frankly I don't want to censor myself.

[idolminds]

I was just pointing out the stupidity of saying "never forget" as if this is something that would be forgettable. So...yeah. Wow. Backfire.

PS, cool. The forums alert you when a post has been made since you last refreshed the thread and when you click submit.

[Ace_O_Spades]

Que... that one I posted that said: "Fuck all the conservative fear mongering bible thumpers in the United States" wasn't directed directly at you

It was just what I perceived to be the opposite of what you posted.

I know you're not all of those things, I just thought we were playing the "make a massive sweeping generalization game"

[Raisa]

i feel old... i can't believe it's been 5 years..  i was 21 when it happened..  long long way off

well...  someone i knew died there. 

[Ace_O_Spades]

I was in no way making light of the deaths on 9/11. Merely that it was both preventable, and the fallout has been exactly what the terrorists wanted.

[Raisa]

The US is just so predictable.... 


I think that's one thing that makes the US a target.  Their insecurities.... It doesn't help having crazy leaders.

[JacksRag(e)]

I think everyone needs to unplug their buttholes for a second and hug each other.  I think we're all just in some sort of terrible misunderstanding and words are being said that were not meant.  So, let's calm down and try to work it out like we always have and stuff.

[Quemaqua]

The sad thing is that I thought idol's original jest was rather funny.

[TheOtherBelmont]

You know whats good about this year's 9/11?  The limited edtion Star Wars DVDs come out at some Wal Marts today and everywhere else tomorrow!

[Cobra951]

Here I thought idol was saying this ace of spades character was the jest.  That was the basis for my second post here.  Part of the problem is that I don't know who's who.  If people choose new names, I'm lost.  So whoever ace of spades is, I don't care whether you value me or not.  You have no right to make judgements about me, or about my philosophies, or my country.  The people you are coddling to are the hated enemy, and you need to make allowances when you talk about that among their victims.  If you come here, on the anniversary of this travesty, to criticize and condemn the victims, then fuck you.  I don't care who you were on the old boards.

Edit:  I didn't make this clear:  I thought ace of spades was some joker who happened to troll his way into the forums.  Then I thought he was a creation of idolminds, when he said his jest didn't work out.  Only now do I realize it's a member of the old boards.  Would I have treated this differently, if I had known who was who?  Probably; but inside, I would have been seething just the same.  Sorry this had to happen.

[ender]

I say fuck the war on "terror". They haven't done anything towards actual ones responsible. Yes, Mr. Bush you're buddies in Saudi Arabi had a large amount (15, I believe) of men on the plane. Bush has even said Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11 now. What happened to the search for Bin Laden?

[Cobra951]

Afghanistan/Taliban was exactly doing something against those responsible.  Iraq was stupidity incarnate.  Bush is most certainly an idiot.  Iraq was not aligned with radical Islamic ideologies, and had a very strong government to suppress them. We killed that, and now we have to do the job ourselves. The next place to go was Iran.  Look at them now.  King of the hill, practically unopposed, openly calling for the destruction of the West, and working on nuclear technology.  Way to go Mr Bush.

But the war on Islamic fascism is very real, regardless of the obtuse blunders of the worst American president in my lifetime.

[ender]

Oh, no doubt it is real. I'm just saying the way its been conducted so far. I know some guys that are in Afghanistan and Iraq... they said it's pretty sad and pathetic that basically the US hasn't done much more than destroy half the signs of civilization there. From what I understand, they went in to Afghanistan, got the Taliban out but still left the place fucked up.

[Cobra951]

I don't even have anything else to say.  I hear you say the same things over and over again, and I honestly don't hear anything but one-sided bias.  For instance - I'm not a bible thumper.  I'm not a fear monger.  I'm only half conservative.  But because I completely disagree with you half the time, that makes me a conservative, fear mongering bible thumper.  That shit don't fly with me, nor does your blind loyalty to your own country, which is just as sad as anyone's blind loyalty to any country.

The fact is, those people that died in the 9/11 tragedy were not the government.  They were fucking people.  And anybody that wants to play devil's advocate with that can go fuck themselves.  Say what you want about the government and the American way of life, but fuck you if you don't acknowledge that it was a tragedy that deserves every bit of this outrage.  I have no love for my own government.  I don't vote because I think the whole American political system is a complete sham.  But if you want me to say that the radical Islamic war machine is anything other than a group of terrorist dogs who should be shot in the street, you're looking in the wrong place.

I'm done with this conversation.  Completely.  I don't need to aggravate myself any further about a subject nobody gives enough of a shit about to even get their fucking facts straight.

EDIT - I don't think that qualifies as "losing it", do you?  Maybe it does.  I don't know.  I lost my job because of 9/11 as well (absolutely directly - I worked for United), and was unemployed for 7 months because of it.  And I actually liked that job, unlike the shit I do now.

You said it so much better.  Yeah, that was "losing it", in particular, the epithets which could be easily misconstrued as hatred of all Islamic people, or Arabs.  My father's partner was Iranian, and I was friends with his children.  I almost dated his daughter, but fate had other plans.

Once again, I apologize for letting my rage win out over my head.

[Cobra951]

Oh, no doubt it is real. I'm just saying the way its been conducted so far. I know some guys that are in Afghanistan and Iraq... they said it's pretty sad and pathetic that basically the US hasn't done much more than destroy half the signs of civilization there. From what I understand, they went in to Afghanistan, got the Taliban out but still left the place fucked up.

Look at it this way:  The Roman Empire would have sacked, pillaged, and burned all signs of civilization.  Then they would have salted the earth to keep anything from growing.  All you have to do is look at Japan and what was West Germany, to see what America does after it wins a war, and the people there embrace the new reality.  That's the key that's missing here.  We still have people bombing and shooting at us.

[ender]

Look at it this way:  The Roman Empire would have sacked, pillaged, and burned all signs of civilization.  Then they would have salted the earth to keep anything from growing.  All you have to do is look at Japan and what was West Germany, to see what America does after it wins a war, and the people there embrace the new reality.  That's the key that's missing here.  We still have people bombing and shooting at us.

Oh, I definitely agree with that. I certainly believe in peace and everything... but sometimes it seems it takes a violent punishment to bring about peace. You can't attack someone while being politically correct. In war, there will be innocents lost and cities destroyed. Only then will that send a message.

[scottws]

I guess I'll weigh in on this subject.  The idea that 9/11 is anything less than an utter tragedy and especially that it was maybe deserved is utterly ridiculous.  If the hijackers attacked the White House and Pentagon, that would be one thing: an attack on the government of the United States.

But they attacked, and had the most success in attacking, two civilian buildings, killing a few thousand people that most likely had nothing to do with the United States' foreign policy.

Kams, if you want to say that the United States did something to provoke a response, that's one thing, but to play it like the Unites States almost deserved what happened 9/11 is absolutely ridiculous.  No country or populace deserves to have civilians directly targeted in such a manner.

Also, to act like a handful of people smashing two planes full of civilians into two buildings containing civilians is anything like dropping a bomb on a guerilla base that results in civilian casualties is even close to the same thing is nothing short of complete insensitivity and is just a ludicrous concept.

[Ace_O_Spades]

scottws

Did I play it like you deserved it? Maybe I did. Maybe you can clarify the difference between "provoking a response" and "deserving a response".

I am also not saying "people smashing two planes full of civilians into two buildings containing civilians is anything like dropping a bomb on a guerilla base that results in civilian casualties" are the same. HOWEVER, a cruise missile that misses its target and hits a hospital, school, or other public building, killing no guerillas, but killing dozens of civillians is at least ideologically the same. Especially in war. As people have stated, in war, civillian casualties will ensue... the WTC was an extremely viable target; it delivered a serious blow to the economic activity in the United States with far reaching effects. That would be an objective of someone at war with you. Just as the targeting of communication centers and transportation routes in Iraq and Afghanistan were viable... resulting in civillian casualties.

I'd be pretty 'effin bitter if my family was blown up by a US cruise missile, when I had nothing to do with the current conflict. I wouldn't personally be mad enough to want to retaliate and kill US civillians in return, but I can picture people who would. So can you.

[Ghandi]

Ace_O_Spades, you might want to look in to who is targeting civilians with cruise missles. Or, let me tell you. Hezbollah, an Islamic terrorist organization. The only cruise missles that have anything in relation to us (the US) are the ones that we supplied to the Isreal army.

As for 9/11, it is important to remember not just the tradgedy but how we dealt with it. No one disagreed with the invasion of Afghanistan, but as for the rest, well any idiot off the street could have come up with a better plan. What Bush should have done is put a $2.00 tax/gallon of gasoline and used to the funds to sever our dependence on gasoline and thus our dependence on oil from the middle east. The fact that we (well, not me..) re-elected this idiot still baffles me.

But, once again, my prayers still go out to anyone that was personally affected by the tradgedy. 

[Ace_O_Spades]

Once again, the problem of perspective comes into effect... To the Lebanese, Hezbollah is a resistance movement against the destruction of Lebanon at the hands of Israel. Xessive has some interesting views on this point and I invite him to educate us further on the joys and beauty of differences in experience and perspective.

However, in any case, no matter the political ideology, religious affiliation, or nation of origin... Deliberately targeting civillians is despicable... And needs to be universally condemned.

[Ghandi]

I read the thread at TME about the subject, and while I appreciate Xessive's view on the subject (and perhaps don't want to start the heated debate again), you have to remember a few things about Hezbollah. They are categorized as a terrorist organization by the international community, and for good reason, but the reason that they are seen as a "resistance movement" in the Islamic community lies in one simple fact: they stand up to the enemy (the evildoers?), Isreal. Not only did they recently resist Isreal, they actually did a good job at it, and now, funded by Iran, they are helping to rebuild Lebanon. Does this mean that they are a not terrorists? Of course not, they target and kill civilians. But this funding and rebuilding of the community gains respect and admiration, which is why they are not viewed as terrorists.

[Ace_O_Spades]

I really can't even begin to support Hezbollah because their mandate is the destruction of Israel (can anyone correct me? I'm not being sarcastic), on top of the defense of Lebanon... And I agree, that takes them from the realm of resistance movement to the realm of terrorist organization.

[scottws]

I am also not saying "people smashing two planes full of civilians into two buildings containing civilians is anything like dropping a bomb on a guerilla base that results in civilian casualties" are the same. HOWEVER, a cruise missile that misses its target and hits a hospital, school, or other public building, killing no guerillas, but killing dozens of civillians is at least ideologically the same.

I disagree.  It's not like we were like (as far as I know), "Let's blow up this hospital and school."  As far as I know, anytime that happened, it was a situation where there was a mistake in targetting made, or there was the belief that the building was used as a base of operations.

The same could not be said of the 9/11 hijackers.  There was no mistake make, and they (or at least the planners) knew that there were no military assets in the building.

Especially in war. As people have stated, in war, civillian casualties will ensue... the WTC was an extremely viable target; it delivered a serious blow to the economic activity in the United States with far reaching effects. That would be an objective of someone at war with you. Just as the targeting of communication centers and transportation routes in Iraq and Afghanistan were viable... resulting in civillian casualties.

This would be the first I've ever heard of a purely economic target being hit in "war" and I would not have considered us to be at a state of war when 9/11 happened.

Communications are hit to disrupt the organization of the enemy.  Supply lines are hit to prevent fighting assets from receiving needed supplies.  Factories are hit so that guns and tanks can't be built for a while.  Airstrips are hit so that attacking or defending planes cannot take off.

[Ace_O_Spades]

You may not have considered the USA to be at war, but in February of 1998 Osama Bin Ladin issued a Fatwa calling for the murder of Americans anywhere on Earth as the "individual duty for every muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it"

Three months later he was interviewed in Afghanistan by ABC-TV

He said "It is more important for Muslims to kill Americans than any other Infidel"

He said "We believe that the worst thieves in the world today and the worst terrorists are the Americans. We do not have to differentiate between Military and Civillian. As far as we are concerened they are all targets. We are certain that we shall -- With the grace of Allah -- Prevail over the Americans. And if the present injustice continues... It will inevitably move the battle to American soil"

This is all from the 9-11 Commission report.
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/sec2.pdf

Also, no, the military does not intentionally blow up churches, schools, hospitals... but it happens. The intent is irrelevant to these people. The act is the final word.

[Ace_O_Spades]

Ooo the 9/11 report in comic form!! Cool!

http://www.slate.com/features/911report/001.html

[Pugnate]

How did I miss this thread?

Afghanistan/Taliban was exactly doing something against those responsible.  Iraq was stupidity incarnate.  Bush is most certainly an idiot.  Iraq was not aligned with radical Islamic ideologies, and had a very strong government to suppress them. We killed that, and now we have to do the job ourselves. The next place to go was Iran.  Look at them now.  King of the hill, practically unopposed, openly calling for the destruction of the West, and working on nuclear technology.  Way to go Mr Bush.

But the war on Islamic fascism is very real, regardless of the obtuse blunders of the worst American president in my lifetime.

Some of what I've read in this thread has been alarming to say the least, but uhh anyway..

I think tactically if the USA wanted to do something about Iran it was vital that they had a presence in Iraq.

With American influence dying in Saudi Arabia, they needed a place to hold their military bases.

Kams, if you want to say that the United States did something to provoke a response, that's one thing, but to play it like the Unites States almost deserved what happened 9/11 is absolutely ridiculous.  No country or populace deserves to have civilians directly targeted in such a manner.

I am not saying I agree with this, but the terrorists feel that the people are responsible for their government. If the government commits murder, then it was the people who put them there and the people who are indifferent to what the government is doing.

I know that is wrong, but so are civilian casualties when targetting terrorists.

[Xessive]

You guys are gonna pin me as a mad conspiracy theorist, but I believe that the US government orchestrated that attack. I see a lot of similarities with the Reichstag fire, which incidentally led to Germany's change from democracy to dictatorship, consequently initiating Hitler's rise to power. My point is that no one really knows who started the fire, but the communists were the 'usual suspect.'

[Ace_O_Spades]

You guys are gonna pin me as a mad conspiracy theorist, but I believe that the US government orchestrated that attack. I see a lot of similarities with the Reichstag fire, which incidentally led to Germany's change from democracy to dictatorship, consequently initiating Hitler's rise to power. My point is that no one really knows who started the fire, but the communists were the 'usual suspect.'

I honestly find that very hard to believe... I mean, unless Bin Laden and Ayman al Zawahiri are the two most insane undercover agents in history.

[scottws]

You guys are gonna pin me as a mad conspiracy theorist, but I believe that the US government orchestrated that attack.

Yep, duly pinned.