Topic: Putin attacks 'very dangerous' US

[Pugnate]

linky

That was pretty unexpected, considering how close the US of A has been with Russia lately. And it is interesting to hear Russia say that considering their own party in Afghanistan during the USSR backed invasion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

[scottws]

Actually the U.S. haven't been to close to Russia the last couple of years.  There have been quite a few disagreements and I think like a year ago we blasted Putin for making some undemocratic changes to the Russian government.

To be honest, I don't think he's totally wrong in his argument.  We need to stop fucking around all over and maybe even go back to being isolationist.

[Pugnate]

I just think if the US of A exits Iraq it would be disastrous.

[angrykeebler]

I think Putin should deal with his own countries problems before he criticizes others. Problems like a decade long war with Chechnya maybe?

[Ghandi]

Good point Keeb, although I can't help but think that he is right. Chechnya was handled badly, but it didn't carry the ramifications that Iraq does, especially if we pull out. With the influence that Iran has in Iraq right now, pulling out would mean a largely Iranian-influenced Shi'ite government in Iraq. Plus the prospect of a war with Iran is a little scary considering how we handled with Iraq war. The only bright spot is the fact that we will have more competent leaders when and if (lets hope it doesn't) this ever happens.

[Quemaqua]

The only bright spot is the fact that we will have more competent leaders when and if (lets hope it doesn't) this ever happens.

An optimist?  How sad.

[Ghandi]

More like a realist. Sometimes the only direction is up.

[Quemaqua]

A realist would call you an optimist.  A pessimist would call you something else.

[Ghandi]

No need to hold back, Que. This is the serious board. 

[Quemaqua]

I'm not trying to be disparaging.  I'm just fully convinced that we're completely fucked politically and that there's nothing that can be done to fix it via the "leadership" in this country, one side or the other.  They should all be imprisoned and murdered.  What we need as an American version of the French revolution.

[angrykeebler]

Only the French Revolution gave eventual rise to Napoleon paving the way for a series of the most destructive wars see on the European continent until the 20th century.

well, i guess we could use some of that here. thin the flock a bit

[Pugnate]

If that happens, I'd buy a remote Island somehow. Then I would put Idolminds in charge of entertainment, because I know that would guarantee the island lots of chicks.

[gpw11]

I'm not trying to be disparaging.  I'm just fully convinced that we're completely fucked politically and that there's nothing that can be done to fix it via the "leadership" in this country, one side or the other.  They should all be imprisoned and murdered.  What we need as an American version of the French revolution.

Well, that's not really necesary since America is actually a democratic republic.  Unless what you actually mean is "we need to get off our asses and vote or become politicially involved in ways that are actually proactive rahter then just attending useless student rallies or bitching about stuff on the internet."

That would make more sense.

[scottws]

I think what he is saying is that it doesn't seem to matter who you vote for.  The candidates are not ideal and our government is corrupt.

[gpw11]

Oh, I get what he's saying, but it's not like there isn't a solution.  One that requires people to get off their asses. 

No one hijacked the political system, it's what it is because people aren't motivated enough to organize and promote electoral reform.   

[WindAndConfusion]

I just think if the US of A exits Iraq it would be disastrous.

Conversely, if the US of A remains in Iraq it would be disastrous.

[Quemaqua]

What I mean is that we should get off our asses, take all politicians by force, then imprison or murder them.  I thought I was being clear on that.  My apologies.

[gpw11]

Oh yeah, that makes sense.

Fuck with reasonable people like you around it amazing that the political system is fucked up at all.

[Cobra951]

To be honest, I don't think he's totally wrong in his argument.  We need to stop fucking around all over and maybe even go back to being isolationist.

I'm all for protectionism and isolationism.  Step 1: secure the borders.  Step 2: Eject as many illegal aliens as possible.  Step 3: Institute punitive tariffs on imports.  Step 4: Make it illegal to hire aliens to do any job an American can do.  Seriously.  I'm not kidding.  Fuck global competition.

[Quemaqua]

I agree entirely.

[WindAndConfusion]

Step 1: secure the borders.  Step 2: Eject as many illegal aliens as possible.  Step 3: Institute punitive tariffs on imports.  Step 4: Make it illegal to hire aliens to do any job an American can do.  Seriously.  I'm not kidding.  Fuck global competition.

I have a one step solution to the same problem:

Enforce labor laws on people who hire illegal immigrants, thereby eliminating the financial incentive for hiring illegal immigrants in the first place.

Step 4: Make it illegal to hire aliens to do any job an American can do.

Americans will mop up vomit for three bucks an hour?

[Ghandi]

That would utterly wreck our economy. I think that it's something that we should strive for (to a degree), because globalization hurts our economy domestically, but I don't think it's feasible right now.

Edit: in response to cobra

[Quemaqua]

I think it would be great for our economy.  Remember when they all boycotted saying the world would stop turning if they didn't work?  Nobody fucking flinched.  I have a lot of close ties to these people because of coworkers and people who come to our office, and I see no downside to launching them out of the country.  None worth worrying about, at least.

[WindAndConfusion]

Well, this is Serious Topics...

I think it would be great for our economy.  Remember when they all boycotted saying the world would stop turning if they didn't work?  Nobody fucking flinched.

"They all"? It was a bunch of college students and other young activists most of whom were born in the US.

I have a lot of close ties to these people because of coworkers and people who come to our office,

"I know lots of Mexicans!" / "I'm not racist, but..."

and I see no downside to launching them out of the country.  None worth worrying about, at least.

Ignoring the fact that I'm almost certain you're wrong (not mistaken, just wrong), surely you see this isn't a useful approach? Even if we managed to deport an appreciable fraction of them (hint: not happening, ever), so long as the market forces that created the situation remain (example: poor enforcement of labor laws making subhuman wages possible) we'll quickly find ourselves in the same situation with some other ethnic group. For example, some of these people:

According to ABC's 20/20 television program, Abramoff lobbied DeLay to stop legislation banning sex shops and sweatshops that forced employees to have abortions in the Northern Mariana Islands when Abramoff accompanied DeLay on a 1997 trip to the U.S. commonwealth. While on the trip, DeLay promised not to put the bill on the legislative calendar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_DeLay#Jack_Abramoff

Good luck deporting them. They're US citizens.

[Quemaqua]

And everyone I ever met from Mexico.  My office has several huge families from there with a lot of ties to the community.  *All* of them boycotted, and most of them were neither young, in college, or born in the US.

[Ghandi]

I think it would be great for our economy.

If we put punitive tariffs on all imports, the prices of oil in the country will skyrocket. Supply will plummet, demand will skyrocket along with prices. Not to mention the economical implications when we would inevitably drill in places like Alaska.

[WindAndConfusion]

And everyone I ever met from Mexico.

How many (say) janitors or agricultural workers do you know?

[Quemaqua]

Many.  There are a great number of farmers in my family and I worked as a janitor for years.  How many do you know?

[WindAndConfusion]

Sorry, which specific day are we talking about here? (The May Day boycott?) I have an anecdote, but I don't want to waste it.

If we are thinking of the same day, I believe I was in Northern California at the time, and I distinctly recall the familiar sight of lots of brown people working the fields. Like always. The only people I know who actually did participate in the boycott were members of my own family (obviously not illegal immigrants themselves).

[gpw11]

If we put punitive tariffs on all imports, the prices of oil in the country will skyrocket. Supply will plummet, demand will skyrocket along with prices. Not to mention the economical implications when we would inevitably drill in places like Alaska.

Too true. It's been pretty much recognized by the vast majority of economists for the past 30 or so years that protectionism is bad for just about everyone and you'll find that most who disagree with that completely are purely politically motivated.  In theory it could work great, until you take into account that every single country that trades with you is also going to initiate tariffs and trade restrictions on your exports in order to make sure their balance of trade doesn't become skewed.  So, all those jobs you just saved?  Well, considering that no one is buying your exports you just lost them again.  All your industry?  Branch plants...no american jobs there, but there is money going to american companies so at least it's helping someone....untill the rest of the world just decides to buy the much cheaper alternatives from countries without restrictive trade policies.  Meanwhile, the American industrial machine is going to be fucked because all those resources used to go into the consumer goods have tarriffs on them and production numbers are down, so you'll more than likely be looking at more expensive, lower quality products flooding the market.

Or, at least that's the theory.

[Antares]

GPW is right, pretty much all modern economic theory points to free trade as a benefit to everyone, theory, I might add that is backed up by historical as well as empirical, data.  Free trade helps everyone.  If you're curious, do some research on Comparative advantage.

Tariffs are kind of old news as far as controling imports and exports goes, the more modern approach is to balance inflation and the strength of your Countries currency vs the currency of the world to make goods more or less expensive on the international market.  You'll notice the impact of currency exchange making the front page of the Wall Street Journal almost daily, but you never hear anything about tariffs anymore.

Back to the Iraq topic.  The US is fucked in either situation, but in this case, to resort to a cliche, this country has made its bed, now we have to lie in it.  We can't just fuck up a country and abandon it to the wolves.  Especially when the wolves are Iran.

[Pugnate]

The problem is that when those wolves become stronger, they become dire werewolves, and the USA just doesn't have enough magical +5 silver swords to hurt werewolves.

What I am trying to say is that if Iran gains control of Iraq, it will mean bigger problems later. Suddenly you'll be seeing a lot more causalities and the same people will be wishing that something had been done while the chance was there.

[nickclone]

Putin is a terrorist in his own right, I would actually call him more of a dictator. The man has no problem pulling shady deal and assassinations to keep himself in power.

[Cobra951]

Wow, this topic is still alive.  I had forgotten about my protectionism post here, since it's really OT.  I can't defend it on any grounds other than we've tried the NAFTA approach, and fucked the middle class.  Time to backpedal.  We can be self-sufficient.  I'm sure of that.  We may have to pay several grand for a TV or stereo, but I think it's a small price to pay for your average family to have a decent standard of living where it counts.

I have one suggestion which has about 10 million percent better probability of coming to pass than what I suggested.  It came from my brother, the lawyer.  Legislate that anyone who does business in the US must have a labor force which meets minimum US labor standards.  That includes any and all subcontractors down the line.  This alone would go a long way, if enforced properly of course.  We have laws against illegal immigration, and they're not being enforced at all.

The problem with Iraq, and wishing later that we had done something now is, do what, Pug?  What would you have us do now?  We broke it, but we can't fix it.  All we could do is really, really break it, and Iran, and Syria--but especially Iran.  Nobody wants to contemplate that.  It ain't gonna happen.  As stupid as you may think Rush Limbaugh is, he got the function of the military right: kill people and break things.  As soon as we ask them to do something else, they're like fish out of water.  Unless we're going to let them kill more people and break more things in Iraq and vicinity, it's best to just get them the hell out.

[Pugnate]

I'll tell you one thing my dear friend. Even the Arab countries are afraid of Iran at the moment. There have been tons of meetings going around all over the middle east and even in Pakistan about Iran. Countries in the middle east region for the first time since the Kuwait  invasion are buying up on defense equipment.

I think Iran makes everyone nervous, and they continue to find evidence of Iran made weapons in Iraq. There is a big divide in Iraq at the moment, and because a vast religious sect in Iraq is the same as what predominantly runs in Iran, it is trying to take advantage.

As for what I would have them do, I really have no idea. But I just think as big as the problem seems right now, it will be impossible to contain in the future.