Author Topic: 10 Things Christians and Atheists can (and MUST) agree on  (Read 5720 times)

Offline angrykeebler

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10 Things Christians and Atheists can (and MUST) agree on
« on: Thursday, May 24, 2007, 08:02:36 PM »
I saw this on someones blog and thought "holy hell.. this is TOTALLY what this forum needs to read".. Plus its a list of 10 so its a nice contrast to the other one on the Serious board.

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/godfuse.html
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Offline TheOtherBelmont

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists can (and MUST) agree on
« Reply #1 on: Thursday, May 24, 2007, 08:32:11 PM »
That's actually a pretty good read plus some of the images in the article were kinda funny.  I especially like the last part about leading by example, too bad everyone can't do that.

Offline idolminds

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists can (and MUST) agree on
« Reply #2 on: Thursday, May 24, 2007, 09:08:54 PM »
While the headline bullet points I can go along with (except #1, nothing is done "in the name of atheism". Thats just retarded. Stalin and Mao didn't do what they did because they were atheist, they did it because they were assholes.), the reasoning behind many of the points are pretty flawed. Atheists know Christians truely believe what they say. I don't think I've ever read that particular argument before. I also like how several good Christians are named under point #4, yet there is no mention of good atheists.

8. Focusing on Negative Examples Makes You Stupid ...when he mentions Stalin and Mao earlier in the article, and spends this section mainly standing up for Christians. You can tell the whole article was written with a religious slant. Not much, hes not hating on atheists. Its just clear that the author was Christian, you know?

"You can't defend morality with logic." I beg to differ.

Eh..Like I said the bullet points are good, but the reasoning behind some of them is pretty crap.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists can (and MUST) agree on
« Reply #3 on: Thursday, May 24, 2007, 09:52:34 PM »
I thought it was pretty decent.  And idol, my guess is the guy that wrote "the great internet porn-off" with a "warning: nudity" tag on it, who also refers to Christian "mythology", is probably not a Christian.  Just a guess.

Case in point, that's pretty much how I feel about it.  Whether or not every last thing he wrote was spot on (I have a few misgivings from the reverse side, as you might expect), I think I can safely say that a general respect for the opposition is why I'm able to be good friends with people who don't believe exactly like I do (or don't "believe" in anything at all) and just not give a crap.  I don't hate anybody because they're an atheist, and just because we disagree on that point doesn't mean we don't agree on others.

All in all, cool link Keebs.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline shock

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists can (and MUST) agree on
« Reply #4 on: Thursday, May 24, 2007, 10:16:51 PM »
Good idea.  I think he is on the right track with a lot of it, but it is poorly executed and flawed in many cases (as Idol pointed out).
Suck it, Pugnate.

Offline idolminds

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists can (and MUST) agree on
« Reply #5 on: Thursday, May 24, 2007, 10:19:24 PM »
And idol, my guess is the guy that wrote "the great internet porn-off" with a "warning: nudity" tag on it, who also refers to Christian "mythology", is probably not a Christian.  Just a guess.

Quote
I soured on the whole religion thing in my teens, as you can probably imagine, and then came back to it later kind of on my own terms.
From the article. Hes obviously not an atheist either since he never would refer to it as a "belief system."

But yes, I agree that I don't hold it against people for what they believe. I may not like what some do because of what they believe (IE, wanting creationism/ID in a science class...or even some of these militant atheists that are just acting like pricks giving the rest of us a bad image), but that won't stop me from liking them as a person.

Offline gpw11

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists can (and MUST) agree on
« Reply #6 on: Thursday, May 24, 2007, 11:23:26 PM »
While the headline bullet points I can go along with (except #1, nothing is done "in the name of atheism". Thats just retarded. Stalin and Mao didn't do what they did because they were atheist, they did it because they were assholes.)

Counter Point:

He is arguing that you CAN do terrible things in the name of either one, which is pretty much undeniable.  Reread what he says there:

"All I need from you is agreement that it's entirely possible for either an atheist or theist world to devolve into a screaming murder festival. The religious leader sends his people into battle because he thinks God commanded it, the Stalins and Maos of the world do the same because they see their people as nothing more than meaty fuel to be ground up to feed the machinery of The State. In both cases, the people are equally dead. "

His fault here isn't logical, it's that he didn't directly realate it to the opening point, which makes it seem illogical.  We all know you can do terrible things in the name of either one, fuck, you can do terrible things in the name of anything. 

Looking for examples from history off the top of my head, I can only think of a few, and they're not very major.  Lenin's gov't immediately after the revolution looked to destroy the Orthodox church.  They killed a bunch of priests to do so.  Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge likewise does the same in Cambodia.  The People's Republic of China - during the Cultural Revolution religious persicution reigned as it was viewed that religion was incompatible with marxist/leninist philosophy.  French Revolution - The Terror, during this period many clergy were killed in the name of 'reason' as groups tried to push religion out of the country.  Sapin - the Red Terror Anarchist and Communist groups during the civil war go out of their way to kill thousands in an attempt to wipe out religion in the country.  I vaugly remember something in Mexico which almost led to a civil war, but could be wrong about that as well.

Sure, none of the gestures are as grand as some of the holy wars out there, but that's besides the point - people CAN do terrible things in the name of either one.  It'd be foolish to think otherwise.

As for what he says to justify his statement, he kind of leaves out the point:  it doesn't matter if they're done in the name of religion, atheism, or any other sort of ideology- these things happen and that's what matters.  Often, the holy wars are only holy wars because that's the easiest way to motivate the populace* - they're really about something else entirely whether it be land, trade routes, cultural dominance, resources, or a grab for power.  It doesn't matter if the Romans persicuted the Christians in the name of religion or if Stalin killed millions in the Ukraine in the name of the state - the end result is the same.

*This does not mean that the absence of religion would disable the leaders ability to motivate the people, history and human nature have shown us otherwise.

Offline idolminds

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists can (and MUST) agree on
« Reply #7 on: Thursday, May 24, 2007, 11:44:08 PM »
Point taken.