Author Topic: Has America Peaked?  (Read 10076 times)

Offline Ghandi

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Has America Peaked?
« on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 12:06:55 AM »
Has America peaked as a nation?

We have ridden the wave of post-WW2. Our economy soared, our foreign relations were excellent, and we were the superpower of the world. We still are the superpower, but a quickly declining one. The dollar is sinking in value. Our foreign relations are disastrous. We are losing money on an irresponsible war, and our administration is selfish and ignorant. Can we reverse the trend? We are not immune to the trends that have plagued nations throughout history. We exhibit the trademark signs of a declining nation. Hell, we aren't even concerned enough at the grassroots level. We are ignorant to our susceptible demise. Can anything be done / should anything be done?

[My apologies for the third-person perspective in the thread, but I am American. In no way was I insinuating that the entire board is American.]

Please post your thoughts.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #1 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 12:41:10 AM »
America is one of the greatest nations in the history of the world, but I always said that if things continue the way they have in my lifetime, America would also be one of the shortest-lived nations in the history of the world.  Many nations have fallen, but the generally stood for hundreds of years.  American is very young, and while it was a bright thing once, it has turned from that.  I'm not anti-America, nor do I believe that tossing a bunch of democrats into the driver's seat is going to change anything, but I think you'd have to be an idiot to say that we aren't in dire straights.

Have we peaked?  Honestly, I think we peaked a long time ago.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #2 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 01:53:46 AM »
My general thoughts on the matter when making the topic was that we have peaked.

But suddenly I digress. We look particularly vulnerable right now. But we are not. We are still strong. Everyone knows this, but we need to show them. Why not go on the offensive? Don't back down from the Iraq war. Step up that war and attack someone else. Stick it to the fuckers. We have the manpower and the technology. Why not use it?

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #3 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 03:57:01 AM »
My hope is that our precarious position was caused and continues to be caused by the worst administration in my lifetime, perhaps in history.  If that is the case, then perhaps changing to less corrupt, less moronic leadership might rescue the country.  I was all for marching after anti-West militant Islam, wherever it may run and hide.  We started on the right foot with Afghanistan, botched up the round up, then proceeded to invade the wrong country for the wrong reasons.  The last thing on Earth we should have done is take down a brutal secular regime in that region.  Think of how much strength we have provided the religious nuts by taking out Saddam and occupying Iraq.  He's responsible for over a million Iranian deaths.  What better way to keep that belligerent Islamic country in check could you hope for?  The asshole could have been bought too, with a small fraction of what we've spent taking him down and occupying his country.

Now we're mired there as we were in Vietnam, probably worse.  We do not have the power to invade and occupy anywhere else right now.  Our manpower is already spread too thin.  We certainly can destroy the entire power base of our mortal enemies, but that would leave behind a radioactive vacuum, the hated of most of the civilized world, and possibly a harmful change to the biosphere.  A single Ohio-class submarine can do it--it ain't gonna happen, not without an American city getting nuked by the Islamists beforehand.

I have no confidence that we're going to turn this around.  The damage our executive branch of government has done is beyond belief, and the other 2 are not fulfilling their obligation to force changes.  You may be right.  History eventually may show that after the boom of the latter half of the 20th century, America sank into the muck too quickly to understand, unless one lived those years and kept abreast of the folly, firsthand.  It's too depressing to contemplate for long.

Offline nickclone

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #4 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 07:29:55 AM »
I don't think we've peaked, I just think we have a horrible leader who has taken us many steps back instead of taken us forward. I think we can reach higher than we ever have...it just won't be for a while. I don't think it will be in my lifetime and I'm only 23.

Offline angrykeebler

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #5 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 10:45:14 AM »
i can pretend im chinese when they become #1!
Suck it, Pugnate.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #6 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 10:49:30 AM »
Can I be your fatter, whiter, less Chinese looking Chinese cousin?

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #7 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 11:03:50 AM »
My hope is that our precarious position was caused and continues to be caused by the worst administration in my lifetime, perhaps in history.  If that is the case, then perhaps changing to less corrupt, less moronic leadership might rescue the country.  I was all for marching after anti-West militant Islam, wherever it may run and hide.  We started on the right foot with Afghanistan, botched up the round up, then proceeded to invade the wrong country for the wrong reasons.  The last thing on Earth we should have done is take down a brutal secular regime in that region.  Think of how much strength we have provided the religious nuts by taking out Saddam and occupying Iraq.  He's responsible for over a million Iranian deaths.  What better way to keep that belligerent Islamic country in check could you hope for?  The asshole could have been bought too, with a small fraction of what we've spent taking him down and occupying his country.

Now we're mired there as we were in Vietnam, probably worse.  We do not have the power to invade and occupy anywhere else right now.  Our manpower is already spread too thin.  We certainly can destroy the entire power base of our mortal enemies, but that would leave behind a radioactive vacuum, the hated of most of the civilized world, and possibly a harmful change to the biosphere.  A single Ohio-class submarine can do it--it ain't gonna happen, not without an American city getting nuked by the Islamists beforehand.

I have no confidence that we're going to turn this around.  The damage our executive branch of government has done is beyond belief, and the other 2 are not fulfilling their obligation to force changes.  You may be right.  History eventually may show that after the boom of the latter half of the 20th century, America sank into the muck too quickly to understand, unless one lived those years and kept abreast of the folly, firsthand.  It's too depressing to contemplate for long.

I think you're right, but it will take more than an administration change to turn things around. The entire mindset of the country has to change. We're so fucking ignorant about our place in the world - we think that it should be given to us and that we deserve to be the superpower. We can blame the administration all we want but it's us who voted him to power.

I was mostly being sarcastic / ironic with my earlier post about starting a new war. That's how countries throughout history have fallen - being too power hungry and stretching themselves too thin. Our Army is really the only thing that is weak right now, though. Our navy and air force is still fine. A simple draft would fix that problem.

Offline scottws

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #8 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 11:53:41 AM »
I think the biggest problem is the corruption.  That just has to go, but how?  The best answer I can think of is free TV time for political candidates, but then you'd probably have a shit-ton of candidates and then that would be a problem.  There is no good answer, but "campaign financing" really is just a source of corruption and it has got to go.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #9 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 11:55:44 AM »
But Ghandi, doesn't the problem run deeper?  I mean yes, Bush was voted in, but do we honestly think any of the other candidates would have been that much better?  They may not have made some of the major mistakes he did, but they're still all part of the same cancer and they still suffer from ego and greed and short-sightedness.  What scott said is relevant.  The corruption needs to be dealt with... but how?

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline angrykeebler

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #10 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 02:34:25 PM »
The corruption needs to be dealt with... but how?

RON PAUL
Suck it, Pugnate.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #11 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 03:33:40 PM »
But Ghandi, doesn't the problem run deeper?  I mean yes, Bush was voted in, but do we honestly think any of the other candidates would have been that much better?  They may not have made some of the major mistakes he did, but they're still all part of the same cancer and they still suffer from ego and greed and short-sightedness.  What scott said is relevant.  The corruption needs to be dealt with... but how?

I think that it has always been present, to a degree. But when you give truly evil people like Cheney and Karl Rove power it manifests itself. Bush is just an idiot -- he probably wants to do what's best for the country but he just listens to the wrong people and is too stubborn to admit mistakes. Mistakes like the Iraq war. It just seems to me like this administration is a culmination of power-hungry individuals in office. All of the partisan bullshit that goes on in congress is testament to this. Politicians aren't blindly following partisan lines for sake of loyalty to party ideals but rather to get re-elected.

Instituting free TV time for party-sponsored candidates is a good idea, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Everyone in power gets elected because they have enough money to campaign for the seat. They don't want to change the status quo. If anything, things are starting to get worse. Political campaigns in a capitalist country are inevitably going to be dominated by money. We need to find some way to separate the two that actually works. Free TV time is great, but often candidates with money purchase additional airtime, which is what we already have.

Anyways, I think that we should purge everyone in congress. Get the fuckers out of there, get someone else in. The Republicans and Dems in congress right now are fucking idiots. Hell, the Dems promised to get us out of Iraq and I voted for them for this very reason, and what have they done about it? NOTHING. Fucking liars.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #12 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 03:45:13 PM »
Exactly, and that's what you're going to get from 100% of the people along the American political landscape.  Nothing.  So how do we change it is the ultimate question?  How do we wipe the slate clean and start over?  It just doesn't seem possible.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline scottws

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #13 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 07:13:18 PM »
I just don't understand why the big motivation is to get re-elected.  Why is it that no one wants to truly make a difference and to hell with getting re-elected.  I think if we saw another Kennedy or FDR or Reagan type that actually did things, people would fall over themselves voting for them especially in this day and age where it seems all anyone wants to do is sit there on their fat wallet.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #14 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 07:21:16 PM »
I think that part of it is, especially for congressional incumbents, it's easy to get re-elected. They have like a 90% return rate. Part of the problem is no one knows what they do half the time, or what they have done, unless it is really bad.

I have an excellent plan for how to fix the current problem. Everyone that wants to vote has to take a test. If you don't know the platform of the person that you are voting for, you are not allowed to vote. If you can't answer simple questions about your country, you can't vote. If you care enough about your country, you should know these things. This will get the fucking idiots out of the ballot box.

I understand how this undermines some of the basic principles that the country was founded on but I think that it would work.

Offline sirean_syan

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #15 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 08:58:41 PM »
They want to get re-elected because of all the ties to money they have while in office. It might not be their money, directly, but their buddies who help them out a little at some point.

What should really happen is Congress should just get cleaned out every decade or so. Force everyone out and force anyone who's made money contacts with them to have to make new ones. You won't squash corruption, but at least you'll force complaisant scum out. It'd be nice if the cleaning day was somehow random too, so no one could plan ahead for it. Like, one day Congress opens and a guy comes out and simply says, "Alright, your time's up. Get out and go home." Elections follow the next day. That might be difficult to pull off, however.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #16 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 09:14:32 PM »
I think that part of it is, especially for congressional incumbents, it's easy to get re-elected. They have like a 90% return rate. Part of the problem is no one knows what they do half the time, or what they have done, unless it is really bad.

I have an excellent plan for how to fix the current problem. Everyone that wants to vote has to take a test. If you don't know the platform of the person that you are voting for, you are not allowed to vote. If you can't answer simple questions about your country, you can't vote. If you care enough about your country, you should know these things. This will get the fucking idiots out of the ballot box.

I understand how this undermines some of the basic principles that the country was founded on but I think that it would work.

I've heard this a few times, usually in school.  Apart from the point you brought up about it undermining the basic principles that the country was founded on, the other main argument is that the percentage of the population that votes will fucking plummit.  Even if that's partially the goal, it does nothing but harm to the percepted legitimacy of the government.  There's other issues beyond that, but most are academic.

As for the topic subject: Yes.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #17 on: Friday, September 28, 2007, 09:23:54 PM »
Legitimacy would be strengthened. Instead of a majority of people who didn't know who / what the fuck they are voting for, you would have a percentage who is well educated on the subject. Those who are voted to power would be more legitimate, because they would be instated on just cause rather than ignorance.

Besides, it's not like education on these subjects is difficult or time consuming. Why the fuck are you voting in the first place if you don't care enough to become educated on the subject?

Also, Sy brings up a great point: Why aren't there term limits on congressmen? And from whom can this be changed? The Supreme Court? I cannot recall.


Offline Cobra951

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #18 on: Saturday, September 29, 2007, 12:33:10 AM »
I recommend a film called Why We Fight.  I think it's very pertinent to this discussion.  Check out the trailer and Eisenhower's comments in his farewell address from early '61.

It's all about power and money.  All of it.  Corruption to the rotten core.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #19 on: Saturday, September 29, 2007, 02:19:39 AM »
Legitimacy would be strengthened. Instead of a majority of people who didn't know who / what the fuck they are voting for, you would have a percentage who is well educated on the subject. Those who are voted to power would be more legitimate, because they would be instated on just cause rather than ignorance.

Besides, it's not like education on these subjects is difficult or time consuming. Why the fuck are you voting in the first place if you don't care enough to become educated on the subject?

Also, Sy brings up a great point: Why aren't there term limits on congressmen? And from whom can this be changed? The Supreme Court? I cannot recall.



But legitimacy is only measured in the eyes of the public as a whole.  As such, when you eliminate a percentage of the public who wants to vote but can't for whatever reason you decrease the legitimacy of the governemnt in general because it is not recognized by more citizens.  You can argue that those in power are there for more legitimate reasons, but that's a different concept all together.  You don't need to know a regional representitive's views on NAFTA to know that he's likely to build a garbage dump in your backyard or farm out manufacturing work on government projects while his competitor won't.

Beyond that, there's the issues of who writes these tests, what do they actually measure, and how complex are they going to be. Do you think somone is better off voting if they know a few hot topics and buzz words, but don't have any clue as to the key concepts behind them?  The tests would most likely create more false negatives than positives if you're talking about them enabiling real social change.  Why the fuck are you voting if you don't know anything about the subject?  Most people that don't know anything about the subject aren't voting.  That's the main argument against Australia-style mandatory voting legislation.

Like you said, it goes against some of the basic principles the country was founded upon. If we're going to put forth proposials on that why not just stop with the little pipe dreams and go for all out meritocracy?  Test (simplified or not) or no, the system just comes down to a popularity contest either way.  There's no way to change why one votes for who they do, regardless of what they know.  There's also no way to assure a representive will draft policy which strictly adheres to their platform, nor should there be for it would come at the cost of mobility, fluidity, and the adapability of government.

I'm not personally saying it's a bad concept, but it's not new and there are reasons that it doesn't have a lot of support among academia or the populace.


Offline Cobra951

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #20 on: Saturday, September 29, 2007, 03:04:10 PM »
Meritocracy?  I had not heard that word before.  I have a feeling that in practice, it wouldn't be much different from fascism.  A select percentage of the population is elevated above the rest, who are then treated as lowly dregs.

I see nothing wrong, though, in having some sort of forced education as a preparation for voting.  It has to be short (as in one sitting), basic, and available to everyone.  That includes illiterate citizens.  No one should vote without knowing the basic facts about who and what the choices are.  Implementing this would be a nightmare, but it would not violate any American principles.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #21 on: Tuesday, October 02, 2007, 10:23:05 PM »
To be quite honest, I'm not sure that I agree with myself either. All I know is, the current system clearly doesn't work. It's based on all the wrong factors. It hasn't always been founded on such factors, I don't think, but it has turned ugly. Reform is necessary. I was just kind of trying to think of a better system.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday, October 03, 2007, 04:28:46 PM »
The reform has to start with the morons in the Supreme Court, who decided that corporations throwing big wads of money at politicians is free speech.  This right here is what led to the corruption.  Only preventing this in the future can cure it.  Without that, nothing else will make a difference.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #23 on: Wednesday, October 03, 2007, 04:46:02 PM »
At the same time, it's a bit foolish to point to the supreme court for all of America's problems.  A bit foolish and a little too easy.

Not to say, however, that it isn't a problem - just that I don't think it's the root cause of anything.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #24 on: Wednesday, October 03, 2007, 06:25:16 PM »
They are the third branch of government and they could have at least allowed the possibility of preventing this.  I never said that everything is their fault.  It's the first branch's fault that we're mired in Iraq.  It's the second branch's fault that my job is either in India or being done by an Indian somewhere in this country, for Indian wages (source).  These people are entrusted with the well-being of the country, and they are fucking it up.  I see nothing wrong with calling them on it.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #25 on: Wednesday, October 03, 2007, 07:38:03 PM »
Oh, by no means do I disagree with you.  The problem with the Supreme Court generally is that by definition it's pretty much reactive.  You have to isolate a policy or piece of legislation to bring before it, and figure a way in which to do so.  It's not really a fault of the system, because that's generally the basis of the system.  There's really no model out there of a democratic republic that works any other way (excluding legislative bodies that volunarily trial run legislation through the court)

I seriously think that electoral reform is the easiest way to radically change the system so the average population is best represented.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #26 on: Thursday, October 04, 2007, 01:25:50 PM »
Electoral reform?  Do you mean direct popular vote?  That would be some trick, and I'm not sure it would end up being fair.  The East and West coasts might end up ruling everything in the middle, where they don't live.  I'm not sure, but it might take a Constitutional convention, and I don't think the less populated states are going to go along with the idea.

You're right about the Court.  All they can do is wait for someone to bring them the big issues, and then rule on them.  That makes it all the more important that they do it correctly and completely.  But they always narrow things down to the most insignificant scope possible, and they are so isolated in their own jurisprudence that their decisions are often wrong in practice.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #27 on: Thursday, October 04, 2007, 04:29:05 PM »
No, not direct popular vote, but more like replacing the current first-past-the-post plurality system of the electoral colleges with something a bit more like the proportional representation systems in place in many democratic republics in the world.  It would shake things up a bit and give indipendents and third parties a chance to get some seats and shake things up a bit.  Ideally, regional representation would be maintained by one house, while the other would be more of a unified body not neccesarily tied to constiuants so much.  Actually accomplishing that last part is a whole other story, however.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Has America Peaked?
« Reply #28 on: Thursday, October 04, 2007, 05:16:04 PM »
I've always been a fan of proportional representation, but what would it take to institute it in America?

I think that part of the reason that states have collapsed in the past, particularly the dominant ones, is that they were not willing to adjust. Many people in power are inherently selfish, not willing to change the status quo. I look at the populace of America and question the motivation to change. It will take something significant.