Topic: Intuitive Gaming

[PyroMenace]

Games now are packaged with very slim manuals which skim over the bare necessities of how a game works, and why would they need more? Everything you need to know is done through the game itself. This isnt inherently a bad thing, it helps pull the gamer into the experience quicker, but I was thinking about the more complex games. How far are you willing to go to step outside the game, put the controller down, and get into the nitty gritty of the games rules and complexities before it gets to the point of being too much? or better yet, how far have you gone? Im not solely talking about game manuals, it could also be menu systems or background info.

Sometimes Bioware's games can be daunting in this regard. I've only played through one of their games which was KOTOR. Never did want to touch Baldur's Gate and the like. Even Mass Effect, which I still need to attempt again, throws a lot of info at you, in terms of learning combat and character development to weapon and armor stats and story info which there is TONS, the game even goes so far as to explain intricate details of technologies and sciences of items. Most of all that stuff is optional to look into anyway, but its something for me to at least check out if I want to understand whats going on in the world and story.

I remember when Star Wars Rebellion was released, it had a rather hefty manual. I read through the whole thing front to back, and proceeded to enjoy the hell out of it, even though it wasnt loved by that many. Ive also read alot in to the first 2 Fallout games, but enjoyed doing that. But turned based games turn me off now, I know you guys have raved about Galactic Civ and Sins of a Solar Empire but it just seems too big for me, Ive also never even touched a Civilizations game.

[Xessive]

I think Oblivion is the game that had me reading up on it inside and outside the game. It really made me curious about the history and cultures of its universe. As far as delving into the game technicalities it was fairly straightforward through the game itself, the manual was pretty handy and not too lengthy.

The Construction Set for Oblivion is what really got me studying it. It was relatively easy (though complex at times) to get into but it did require some online research to really learn.

NWN, KotOR, and Mass Effect really drew me in as well.

I think it is mostly RPG's that suck me right in and have me explore and ponder their worlds.

[Quemaqua]

I love any game with lots of materials for me to dig into outside of it.  This is much easier when it's backstory and stuff instead of rules and gameplay information, though.  But yeah, I have a few hundred pages of printed material from The Imperial Library because I love the Elder Scrolls fiction and find it deep and fascinating.  I recently spent a bunch of time digging up stuff for that Metroid thread, got to read the comic and stuff which was awesome.

But yeah, I love to fully invest myself in a game and get into it however I can, including in ways that extend outside of the game itself.

[scottws]

Not sure what I can add here other than yeah, Rebellion was awesome and you're missing out if you've never played a 4X game like Civilization or Galactic Civilizations II.  They are daunting to learn if you've never played one before, no question, but the experience is well worth the effort.

[idolminds]

I'm still in the "trying to learn" stage of Civ games, despite owning Civ 2, Civ 3, and GalCiv2 (with expansion). Theres just so much to learn that it makes it tricky. Gotta power through the learn to get to the fun.

But I do like backstory and outside info. I read a lot about whatever game I'm playing.

[scottws]

I think it helped that I started with the original Civilization.  It was still really complicated, but not as much as the newer 4X games.  The things that ended up getting added in subsequent releases (like culture and various tweaks and additions to treaties) were comparatively easier to pick up knowing how the rest of the game worked already.

One of the things that helps a lot I think is the whole research tree laid out in front of you at all times.  That helps you priorities different branches to get something you really want/need as well as lets you know what research might not be worth chasing at all.

[Quemaqua]

I've never actually understood why people find those games complicated.  Admittedly I have no perspective since I've been playing these for forever, but when I started learning them I didn't really have much trouble.  And the general progression of things is fairly linear.  You have to make choices, but the general flow of the game is ultimately fairly similar from run to run... it's just the specifics that change, and most of those decisions are based on need.  Need more people in your empire?  Focus on increasing population.  Too much corruption?  Focus on whatever civic upgrades help you bring it down.  Everything status quo?  Work on increasing your power and resources as much and as fast as possible until you run into an issue that needs your attention, like population problems, corruption, research going too slow or taking too much money, whatever.  It's all about problem solving.

[scottws]

I think you're oversimplifying it.  Yes, all of what you said is true, but a novice would have to figure out what units or improvements to build or changes to farming/mining to increase population or happiness or something else.  And they have to navigate the interface.

It takes time to get used to all that stuff.  You need to figure out what shields mean, what grass means, and if 2 shields on that square is good or bad.  And is it better to farm the hills or mine them?  How do you even do that?  What unit does that?  It says it's going to take 38 days to build the settler.  Should I build that or do something else here and have another city build it?  None of my cities will go past size 6, but I've seen CPU cities as big as size 12... why?

I know what you're saying.  I was able to pick up and play Galactic Civilizaitons II and do okay at it just based on my experiences playing lots of Civilizatoin, Civilization II, Civilization: A Call To Power, and Civilization III.  But when I first picked up Civilization, I had no idea what I was doing.

[PyroMenace]

The customization of your army scares me in Galactic Civ. Like how you can equip your units with anything you like, I wouldnt know where to begin and it just sounds like tedious trial and error to figure out what works well. I tend to like it when there are pre-set units to choose from. But thats just me, customizing on a very deep level can also be extremely rewarding, but I just get a headache.

Also I did mention on here that I was going to try Eve Online, well I did, and shortly after I go through all the confusing choices of what faction you wanted your character and what class and set of skills, I quit. The game never made any sort of point to show you what it all means or even what the classes mean or how the skills would work toward you getting better for some specific task in the game. I just found that completely stupid and backwards in terms of being something intuitive.

[scottws]

I don't know anything at all about Eve Online, so I can't comment on that.  As far as GalCivII and unit customization goes though, it's sort of a it's-there-if-you-want-it feature.  There are standard units as well.

You can just do your own thing if you want like make a really fast ship with a nice weapon loadout and defenses, but very short range.  Or you can make a beast of a ship: heavily armed and defended and long range, but very slow.

Last time I played I didn't customize any ships.  I've done it before but usually I make something crappy.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, don't let the customization turn you away.  It's pretty easy to ignore completely.

As for the prior discussion... I dunno', scott.  I mean, of course you have to learn what a shield means.  Icons don't mean much of anything on their own, regardless of what game you're talking about.  Basics are basics and must be learned.  But most of that stuff I found really easy to process with Civ.  Obviously there's more to it than a lot of games, but it's also a hell of a lot more simple when compared to really complicated or more tactical stuff.  Like, say, Crusader Kings and its ilk.  You have to put in a little effort to learn a Civ game, but it doesn't strike me as the kind of thing that has a particularly huge learning curve, especially since once you grasp the early concepts, most of the late-game stuff is just an extension of that and hence very easy to digest.  And most of the information isn't in graphs and stuff unless you choose to dig into that level of it, it's mostly just basic numbers and a lot of pictures.  Eh... I dunno'.  Maybe I've just lost perspective.  But I learned the basics of the first Civ in a couple hours, and had fun the whole time.  Are the newer ones more complicated compared to that one?  There's a bit more to think about, but it seems to me most of the fundamentals to get going are virtually unchanged.