Topic: Xi3: Valve's Steam-powered PC

[Xessive]

Xi3, Valve Announce New Steam-Powered PC



Hot on the heels of Nvidia's hardware announcement, Valve finally reveal the Steam-powered gaming PC we've all been hearing about in mystery-ridden rumours.

Looks intriguing but specs are not available just yet.

[sirean_syan]

Who are these things for? I saw a report on Rock Paper Shotgun that the expected price is somewhere over $1000 for the base model. Give that this thing is likely going to have some equivalent to integrated graphics that's a boat load of money for not a lot of performance. I would venture a guess that most folks willing to pay that much for a gaming device would just buy an actual PC. The form factor is nice, but the tradeoff doesn't seem worth it.

[Xessive]

Who are these things for? I saw a report on Rock Paper Shotgun that the expected price is somewhere over $1000 for the base model. Give that this thing is likely going to have some equivalent to integrated graphics that's a boat load of money for not a lot of performance. I would venture a guess that most folks willing to pay that much for a gaming device would just buy an actual PC. The form factor is nice, but the tradeoff doesn't seem worth it.

We still have to see what the actual specs will be but if they're "value-end" performance... Man, at that price point I'd rather build my own little rig in a Micro ATX case. Sure, it's slightly bigger but I can still pack in an above-average graphics card. This is purely speculation, of course, we're not even sure what they've managed to cram in there.

[Cobra951]

Is the $1000 price correct, or just a rumor?  I can't see this thing going anywhere for that much.

[idolminds]

So far I think its a rumor based on the same form factor PCs those dudes already sell. So unless Valve has some magic fairy dust or is going to sell for a loss I think it'll be pretty close to that.

A small form factor PC could be kind of fun. I'd turn it into a little emulation machine, it build it into an arcade cabinet. But I can do that cheaper than a grand. Not sure what people are going to actually play on this thing.

[Xessive]

[ Invalid YouTube link ]

[idolminds]

More to come?

Reached for comment this morning about the forthcoming piece of hardware, Valve marketing director Doug Lombardi told Polygon that Piston is just one of many hardware prototypes they brought to the show.

"Valve will be at CES to meet with hardware and content developers in our booth space," Lombardi said. "We are bringing multiple custom (hardware) prototypes as well as some off-the-shelf PCs to our CES meetings."

Lombardi described the prototypes as "low-cost, high-performance designs for the living room that are great candidates for Steam and Big Picture.

Also about the price of this Piston:

Xi3 chief marketing officer David Politis walked Polygon through what they could say about the device, but were mostly tightlipped on details. While they couldn't discuss the price, they did say the device is based on its "performance level" X7A, which is priced at $999.

[Xessive]

Valve confirms it's building a Linux-based Steam Box that will act as a local gaming server for all your screens

In an exclusive interview with The Verge, Valve CEO Gabe Newell shed light on the company's hardware plans, confirming that its own "Steam Box" will be based on Linux OS. The Steam Box has mostly been sheathed in rumor over the past year, but we've learned a number of interesting details about the planned device -- perhaps most importantly, the Steam Box won't just be a locked-down PC console designed to be used solely in the living room. "The Steam Box will also be a server," Newell says, "so you could have one PC and eight televisions and eight controllers."

[gpw11]

I don't get what Valve is doing here now.  I mean, the basic idea makes sense and I think it's pretty good:  develop a hardware unit that can run PC games as a console.  Big Picture Mode works pretty well and, thanks to Microsoft really pushing the Xinput standard for controllers, there are a lot of PC games that run perfectly with a pad with no setup...and I think there probably is a market for that, especially if Valve can kind of set a hardware standard for smaller companies and independents to aim for.

But I have absolutely no idea why the fuck they would use this thing.  It doesn't even seem as if it was developed for consumer use and Valve's intended application doesn't take advantage of any of the benefits:  modular design, portability, durability, low power draw.   Honestly, this seems more aimed at specialized commercial use....hence why people will pay so much for it over a standard option - perhaps they need something that "versatile" in such a small form factor.

Other than that, it just seems like a stupid prototype to build a console around. The specs for their current models aren't anywhere close to impressive for the price, actually pretty much the opposite and I'm not even just comparing it against desktop units, I'm looking at it like these things have no business playing games.  They didn't just develop some amazing new technology in integrated graphics, they're just going to have to use one of the current contenders...which is fine...on a laptop.  For a dedicated gaming machine?  Not really.  For a dedicated gaming machine that costs that much fucking money?  Hahahahahaha.

Sure, the $1000 is just a terrible, terrible rumor...but considering Xi3's cheapest projected model is basically the equivalent of an Asus eeeBox and costs pretty 2.5x as much ($500+), I don't know why Valve would even use this companies products as a template. 

Pssssst....consoles don't have to be that small and power draw isn't THAT big of an issue.  Oh, and it doesn't have to be modular if it's well priced.   The design benefits of this thing (the reason for the price) don't suit the purpose at all.

Oh, and there's already pretty good indication that there isn't a market for this

If you can't sell it to people to replace a PC, what makes you think you could do it to act as a console? 

Honestly, hopefully Valve just wants to license the form factor or something.

[idolminds]

It would be different if they were going all Microsoft and actually pushing a console, but they aren't. This thing is some kind of inbetween PC/Console but weaker than both. Who is going to buy it? Who is going to target it for game ports? Lets see, they could make a Windows version that targets all the PCs everyone has and the large Steam base, or we can do a linux port for some weakass livingroom hardware that no one owns.

I guess they what I'm thinking is they need to give this thing some kind of identity. What *is* it? Its not a PC because its not going to play your PC games. If they would target it as a new separate platform, get some indie devs on it, leverage Steam as your backend, you might have something interesting. Except if we're going for novel new indie hardware I can buy an Ouya for $100, so why would I look twice at Valves thing?

[scottws]

I think Valve is trying to push game companies to make Linux games.  Think about it, Microsoft seems to be edging into a closed market like Apple and taking a cut of all sales.  Since that's Valve's bread and butter, they see Microsoft making a move that will hurt them.  Steam needs an OS, and if Apple and Microsoft are going to push them aside then they need an outlet.  Linux isn't going down the locked store road.

[idolminds]

Great! Id love to not have to buy Windows every few years. I'm just not sure this Steambox thing is really going to help that much.

Of course it'll be great to have a nice open OS to run my locked down game store. (yes Im bitter)

EDIT: Ok, I dont want to come off as a dick, even though I probably did. I'm just kind of responding to all these people online that are kind of missing how hard trying to front a transition from Windows to Linux is going to be. Valve is going to need to throw a ton of weight behind it to get other devs on board, and Windows and DirectX have a crazy amount of momentum (and money) behind them. I just don't know if they are going far enough to shift it.

[Quemaqua]

They aren't. This won't go anywhere, for all the reasons already mentioned.

[gpw11]

They aren't. This won't go anywhere, for all the reasons already mentioned.

I think this is probably it.

The problem with Linux as a gaming platform isn't the lack of a distribution platform, it's the lack of demand. Considering how hesitant many developers are to dedicate resources to PC development and/or ports these days, you can bet your ass they're going to want to go with the safe bet and the massive installed user-base of Windows.   I mean, they could do both, for sure, but I don't think Linux is really a profitable option at this point.

Valve can push all the want, but at the end of the day you can't force developer acceptance of Linux as a gaming platform. Honestly, I think they'd be a lot better off using Android for their set top box.

Also, it's not like Microsoft or Apple are actually fully transitioning into completely closed systems on their desktops.  You can still download and run and .exe as you could before, you just may not have appstore/market access. Steam's userbase is more than capable of going through the url for the download link.

I find this whole thing seriously confusing.

[scottws]

Also, it's not like Microsoft or Apple are actually fully transitioning into completely closed systems on their desktops.  You can still download and run and .exe as you could before, you just may not have appstore/market access. Steam's userbase is more than capable of going through the url for the download link.

True, but think about the future of Windows.  Microsoft really pushing the Modern UI.  Think about it this way:  both Windows 8 and Windows RT support Modern UI apps, but only Windows 8 supports Win32.  That means that, by default, Modern UI has a larger installed base.  It is hard to ignore; however, the only way to sell Modern UI apps is through Microsoft's marketplace.  I understand why Valve is worried.

As far as converting both devs and users to Linux, if Valve can somehow make this thing work developers would be stupid to ignore it especially if they don't want Microsoft sucking a big percentage of their profits.  And if they develop for this, they are developing for Linux.  That said, I don't think it is going to be a commercial success.

[gpw11]

Think about it this way:  both Windows 8 and Windows RT support Modern UI apps, but only Windows 8 supports Win32.  That means that, by default, Modern UI has a larger installed base. 

I get what you're saying, but I don't think it's necessarily true. Even including windows RT, I'd venture a guess that the Modern UI won't have a larger installed base for close to a decade.  We're not talking about iOS or Android here, Windows RT has market share in the low single digits and isn't exactly doing a lot to convince people to switch over. I think that you're totally right and part of the reason Microsoft integrated the Modern UI into Windows 8 was so that they could unify the market and boost developer support for Windows Phone and Windows Tablets. Will it work?  Who knows, but I doubt it.

Likewise,  I sincerely doubt Linux will really serve as an alternative to Windows as a gaming platform in the next decade or so. Even if Valve can push developers to leave windows behind and focus on Linux I can't see many all that willing to fund such ventures considering that Linux has a less that 1% desktop market share...and it's free.  So, in contrast to Apple, there isn't a barrier to entry. Anyone who wants to run Linux already does.  Those that don't run it just don't want to.  I don't see how that's more enticing to Valve than just allowing people to download Steam, even if it's not in the Windows Marketplace.   Sure, pursuing Linux support in addition to Windows is a great idea, but I can't see them ever focusing on it.  The user base isn't there (and never will be) and developer support (currently) isn't either, and people aren't going to switch over enmasse because you can play games on it all of a sudden...not until there's better support for productivity suites (Open Office and Google Docs are sweet for Word Processors and simplified spreadsheets, but that's pretty much it) and the type of specialty software that's been developed for Windows over the last two decades.

But yeah, I concur that it can all be summed up by "this isn't going to be a commercial success" in either case.



   

[Xessive]

How Valve's Steam Box will reinvent the game console as you know it

An interesting article on The Verge. Makes some points though there is a lot of speculation. Here's an excerpt:

Valve is trying to build a game console that you haven’t seen before: something that brings the PC (the big thing sitting on your desk) and the traditional console (the little thing sitting under your TV) together into a single device. A device that will run Valve’s Steam platform: the biggest digital game distribution service on the market, with upwards of 50 million users. (By comparison, Xbox Live has somewhere around 40 million subscribers.) But what does that really mean?

If you know any PC or console gamers, they’re sure to have some talking points on hand about why their gaming platform of choice is the platform to have. That’s because PCs and traditional gaming consoles each have a lot to offer for everyone who likes playing games. Consoles are easy to set up and play, great for gaming with friends and family, and comfortable to use (just try using a keyboard and mouse on the couch). Lots of people can hook up a Wii or an Xbox to the television, pop in a disc, and start playing without a huge learning curve. And while console games are usually more expensive, consoles cost much less than powerful gaming PCs upfront (high-end gaming PCs can cost thousands of dollars).

[Cobra951]

3 tiers?  Top tier allows manufacturers to throw in whatever hardware they want?  Not exactly standardizing anything, is it?

It's an interesting concept.  If that middle tier can come in at a console price point instead of $1000+, it becomes potentially viable.  I can't see that $99 option (that needs an additional user PC to work) as anything but niche (a poor one).  But a $300 self-contained Steam-dedicated PC that performs well (is that possible?) might be a real winner.  It's all pie in the sky at this point.  Let's see where reality takes it.

[Xessive]

3 tiers?  Top tier allows manufacturers to throw in whatever hardware they want?  Not exactly standardizing anything, is it?

It's an interesting concept.  If that middle tier can come in at a console price point instead of $1000+, it becomes potentially viable.  I can't see that $99 option (that needs an additional user PC to work) as anything but niche (a poor one).  But a $300 self-contained Steam-dedicated PC that performs well (is that possible?) might be a real winner.  It's all pie in the sky at this point.  Let's see where reality takes it.

Precisely. Time will tell soon enough.

I'm just thinking, remember when you could install a Linux distro on a PS3 (I think it was Yellow Dog)? This is starting to feel like a refinement of that idea. Essentially having an open console that you use as you see fit (as opposed to how the proverbial they see fit.)

[gpw11]

I think there's still a piece of the puzzle missing here. As Cobra pointed out, they're not really standardizing anything, just coming up with a bit of a more specified Windows Experience Index sort of thing and maybe offering three hardware tiers around it.  But at the end of the day, you're still looking at a gaming PC hooked up to your TV, not a streamlined and standardized pc/console type thing....which is where the appeal is. 

From where I stand, they'd be much better off hammering out a standardized design based on that middle tier, reap the benefits of the increased scale of production on those parts in order to offer a lower price point, and work on getting publishers and developers together to set that hardware as a baseline for future PC releases.  People who want higher end can just play on their PC, as that's not going away, or they can just hook their PC up to a TV, OR they could buy the $99 peripheral. 

That really seems to me like the only point it doing this.  As it is, it sounds like they're just trying to develop a front end....which they already have with Big Picture Mode. I really, really don't get it - It's almost like they're just utilizing the bad parts of PC gaming and basing a system on that. Not to mention, I don't know what the fuck $300 is going to get you without economies of scale in production and a system setup where the provider (Valve) is willing to take a loss in hopes of future profit through licensing fees and sales, and it doesn't seem like they want to set it up that way.  Seriously, you can't build that decent of a gaming PC now for $300 - and that's just looking at cpu, gpu, ram, and the mobo.  There seriously has to be some sort of plan to offset the costs, apart from just reaping the rewards from selling games through Steam.

And finally, by going through Linux, they're cutting off 90% of the pre-existing PC game catalog. Sure, I'm sure if they focus on Linux and provide developer incentive that number will get better, but lets not kid ourselfs, a lot of past, current, and future games still aren't going over that way with the plan they have now.

It seems like they're over-complicating what should be a simple plan:

-Release standardized PC hardware to be hooked up to TV at a reasonable enough pricepoint to attract people who find the high cost of pc gaming a barrier
-Provide front end and store
-Use the baseline metric they've made here to entice developers and publishers to port more games to Steam/Linux.  This serves to help Valve get away from windows slowly, as well as increase catalog and marketplace acceptance.
-Ensure users that their new Steambox systems will be able to play Steambox games for years without having to upgrade.

Simple plan that could very well make Steambox the template for PC development. Options still available for higher end PCs, but the safe bet for developers would be to make sure that their games run on Steambox standardized hardware flawlessly. No idea why they aren't doing that, it's almost like they're only try to sell this to people who already game on PCs...which is dumb.

[idolminds]

Valve is in the news today after a round of layoffs/firings, including Jeri Ellsworth who was their main hardware development person.

25 people were let go, and not just hardware. Lead on Source Film Maker, lead artist on TF2, etc. Considering the size of Valve, 25 people is a significant number. And of course Valve being Valve they aren't getting in front of this and telling anyone whats happening so the internet is full of wild speculation.

[Xessive]

More speculation but some official response from Gabe.

Valve head Gabe Newell says the company isn't stopping any planned hardware initiatives, despite reports of layoffs at the company and the news that hardware lead Jeri Ellsworth was fired. In a statement issued to Engadget, Newell said:

"We don't usually talk about personnel matters for a number of reasons. There seems to be an unusual amount of speculation about some recent changes here, so I thought I'd take the unusual step of addressing them. No, we aren't canceling any projects. No, we aren't changing any priorities or projects we've been discussing. No, this isn't about Steam or Linux or hardware or [insert game name here]. We're not going to discuss why anyone in particular is or isn't working here."

Source

[Quemaqua]

I hate that fat prick.

[gpw11]

How strange.

[sirean_syan]

The new rumor is that 24 of these people regularly used the vending machine on the fifth floor and deprived Gabe from buying every bag of Cheetos in stock at some point.

The 25th person just got axed because Gabe loves numbers that are divisible by five. Also, he heard this guy only owns two non-cooking knives at home and Gabe doesn't trust anyone with less than five.

[Cobra951]

Internal shakeup.  The king reasserted himself.  Happens all the time.

Edit:  Speaking of Newell (here) and JJ Abrams (Aliens: CM thread) . . .

[Xessive]

PISTON is now available for pre-order from Xi3 starting at $899.99.

The system itself won't be shopping until the holiday season, end of the year.

Specs so far are:

Hard Drive: Internal 128GB SSD
8GB RAM
3.2Ghz Quad Core (R464)

The customization option is only a larger SSD drive for an additional cost:

Add $340 - Internal 256GB SSD
Add $750 - Internal 512GB SSD

No word on the graphics chip yet but Xi3's X7A series uses Radeon 7000 series graphics cards, that could be an indication.

[Cobra951]

That link won't load for me right now.  As I read the story earlier, the price is $1000, with a $100-off incentive for preordering.  Not exactly a mainstream price for something aiming to compete in the console demographic.  Maybe it isn't really trying to do that at all.  I can get any number of gaming-capable PCs for a grand or so.

Edit:  Trailer!

I had forgotten about no discs.  I don't like that one bit.  I suppose you can get an external DVD or Bluray, adding even more to the already excessive cost.

[gpw11]

Yeah, Its cool that it's so tiny and powerful, but what do I give a fuck?  Priced way too high for anything I'd ever have use for.

[Xessive]

Yeah, sorry about that, the Xi3 website sucks and keeps going on and off.

Anyway, the PISTON is definitely priced pretty high. Considering the specs we've seen the hardware enthusiasts among us can easily build an equivalent system for much less. I guess you're paying for 3 things: brand, portability, and modular architecture.

[Cobra951]

UPDATE: Valve has distanced itself from the Xi3 Piston, dubbed an unofficial Steam Box.

It had been believed that Valve had backed the grapefruit-sized computer ahead of the release of its own Steam Box, but this appears to be false.

Valve's Doug Lombardi told Eurogamer that Valve had some dealings with Xi3 Corporation, the company behind the Piston, but not any more.

"Valve began some exploratory work with Xi3 last year, but currently has no involvement in any product of theirs," he said.

Story

That kills it, I think.

[Xessive]

Yowza! As interesting as Xi3's systems are most people never even heard of them until the "Steam Box" rumours started circulating.

[gpw11]

Story

That kills it, I think.

Valve is in the news today after a round of layoffs/firings, including Jeri Ellsworth who was their main hardware development person.

I'd be willing to place money on these two things being very closely related.  There's no way Valve let rumors (which for the most part were treated as fact by most news outlets) circulate for 3 months that they were approving of/branding this product without releasing a correction. Something weird went on over there.

[Pugnate]

I agree with GPW. I think some deal went sour or something. The firing has to be related.

So I am not following this because I don't care so much... but is Valve's official Steambox still happening?

[Pugnate]

http://kotaku.com/5990254/piston-makers-we-were-asked-to-build-a-product-specifically-for-valve

It seems to me that the disagreement was that Xi3 wanted the box to have Windows, while Valve wanted it to use Linux. Xi3 thought it would seriously limit the market of their product.

[Xessive]

Valve are trying desperately to squeeze out from under Windows' grip. That much was evident with their growing Mac support over the past couple of years and now it looks like they want to migrate the gaming community (as a whole) to Linux.

I can understand where they're coming from but swimming against the current is not often advised. It's an ambitious undertaking.

[Quemaqua]

It's a nice idea, but unrealistic. You almost have to admire their hubris—it was, after all, that same ego that got them Steam to begin with—but I don't see them getting away from Windows. It just doesn't seem feasible.

[Xessive]

It certainly would a heck of challenge, especially considering how deeply entrenched most of us are in Windows as a base OS.

I have been using Ubuntu on one of my other systems and while it takes some getting used (Ok, a lot of getting used to) to I can see myself adopting it as my primary OS, should shit hit the fan with Windows.

The region-based dependencies of Windows Phone and Windows 8's Modern UI apps riled me up and got me to seriously research alternatives in the event Microsoft push me out as a result of these asinine issues. Linux as a base OS represents the freedom and open-source I seek in an OS, and Ubuntu is the Linux distro that I feel truly embraces that while helping ease the transition from Windows. OpenSUSE is alright and even resembles Windows but it had some limitations and required a lot more savvy to get running properly (a lot of repos for manual driver installations).

I don't fully understand why Xi3 would back out considering they could have geared the PISTON towards Valve's wishes and keep their own series (X5A and X7A) setup with their Linux or Windows options. Plus the average techie (like me) wouldn't necessarily care what OS is installed by the OEM, we can just install whatever alternative OS we want later anyway.

Well, I suppose the target demographic isn't techies but rather people who just want a convenient solution in a small box with minimal setup/config requirements.. y'know a console.. We techies can just build our own machines for a lot less anyway.

[Cobra951]

But it's not really a console.  It's still a full PC, regardless of OS.  Other than the size and shape, there's nothing here that can't be had elsewhere.  If it doesn't get manufactured to Valve's specs, it has nowhere to go in the marketplace.  The whole fiasco is just weird.

[Xessive]

But it's not really a console.  It's still a full PC, regardless of OS.  Other than the size and shape, there's nothing here that can't be had elsewhere.  If it doesn't get manufactured to Valve's specs, it has nowhere to go in the marketplace.  The whole fiasco is just weird.

Yeah, technically it's still a PC but they're marketing it as a console. They even refer to it as the "Piston Console."

Even with current-gen consoles, the only thing really setting them apart from PCs is the software (aside from the standardized approach of course). I think what Valve is getting at is making a Steam box that boots right into Steam's Big Picture mode, kinda like how the Xbox goes right into NXE (or whatever it's called now) and the PS3 goes right into the XMB interface. The only difference being that a Steam Box would still have an accessible underlying OS.

If Valve succeed at what I think they're trying to do they may effectively jump-start something I've been dreaming of for a long time: playing console games on my PC comprehensively and without feeling left out because I'm the only one with the PC version of a game.

Technically my PC could run Xbox 360 games but Microsoft won't allow it. Imagine if we were able to play X360 games together despite me having my PC and you having a console? If Valve manage a standardized PC that effectively operates like a console, with a powerful distribution network and developers/publishers backing them with solid titles, it could very well be the next-gen console that can cross-play with PCs and Macs.