Topic: Vagrant Story kicks my ass.

[Cobra951]

This thread forced me to track this game down.  I'll be trying it out after I get tired of Eternal Sonata, maybe even before then.

Edit:  Zounds!  My own page.  Woohoo!

[Quemaqua]

Heh, I actually suggested to you elsewhere that you maybe consider FFXII or VS, Cobra, if you were looking for something less restrictive and more involved after ES.  VS is an amazing game, truly, and exactly what dungeon crawlers should aspire to... except with a lot more to it than you'd ever give a dungeon crawler credit for.  The difficulty may indeed be prohibitive, as if you read the rest of this thread you'll realize that I had a hell of a time getting past the learning curve, but if you're willing to stick it out and learn the ropes, it really does reward you for it.  The story is intriguing and well told, the dialogue is believable, the characters are unique, the music is great, and I think it may truly be the best looking game on the PS1.

[Quemaqua]

So I think I've entered phase 3 of my learning relationship with VS.  GPW gave me the good advice to ignore weapon affinities (i.e. the way the weapon "learns" to kill things of a certain type the more you use it against that type) and just stick with weapon damage type (blunt, piercing, edged).  This helped in the early game where I was having difficulty, as most enemies seemed to be weak to one type of weapon.  He also said that combining materials isn't really something you have to do until a subsequent play through the game and you can ignore it on your first run, which got me to stop worrying about it and that was nice.  It helped me figure the basics out.

However... I think I've now decided otherwise.  I wanted to see how big an effect the affinities had since the *elemental* ones always made life a hell of a lot easier for me against certain enemies and bosses, so I had a sword I'd been using a lot, and it already had a pretty decent rating against humans, and I just concentrated on using it for a while... and now that it's at around 55+ for it's human rating, the thing kicks some pretty serious ass.  Granted, it's still fully possible to run into guys that aren't weak to that armor type, hence the weapon won't do any (or much) damage, but this is easily rectified with a couple shots of Degenerate/Tarnish whilst casting Prostasia on myself.  This eats up more mana than just trying to use a more suitable weapon, but the advantage is when a human character is weak against that blade type, the thing goes through them like butter.  So I do just as much damage as I ever would previously against the guys who defend better against the weapon as long as I soften them up with negative spells, but on the whole I I do considerably more damage, and more consistently.  And I hear things get especially wicked once a weapon reaches an affinity of 99, which I'm fast approaching.

Also, the combining system is actually my friend now, and this is completely because of my discovery about affinities.  When you combine two blades in a workshop, they may or may not form something new and cool.  Generally speaking, whatever you forge won't be as nice as whatever the best blade was.  So if you have a Kickass Blade +3 and a Decent Blade +1, you're probably going to end up with a Pretty Nice Blade +2.  However, the blades will also share affinities, and this is key.  You need to upgrade your equipment to stay potent as you progress, but that means losing all the affinities you've built up on your weapons if you're going that route.  It was a conundrum to me until I realized that by combining blades, you can make better weapons out of your old weapons and still keep their affinities (or even increase them in some cases).  So my standard one-handed Iron Rapier with a 55+ human rating became a "Knightly weapon" two-handed giant freaking axe that does almost twice the damage, has better range, and a better agility rating (somehow) yet remains just as proficient at killing humans as it did before.  By combining blades this way, you can maintain or increase your affinities and still get new gear... not to mention you can seriously move up the food chain in terms of unique blade types if you combine the right stuff.

So yeah, this game was awesome and then just got even better.  I had a two-handed great sword I was using against dragons and lizard types, but it was bronze and fast becoming obsolete.  It still worked because of its affinity, but I knew a newer weapon could be better.  Turned the thing into a Hagane (steel) one-handed sword that I can use with a shield, and it's faster and does a ton more damage.

Idol initially expressed mild displeasure at the thought of no loot pinatas in this game, but let me tell you, building your own gear is so much more satisfying.  Nobody tells you how to do it, you just fiddle around until you figure out a combination that's going to work out well.  I got several new shields out of combining as well, and a few pieces of armor.  Affinity seems to matter a great deal less when it comes to defense, or at least it would just take far too much time to build it up... so I haven't paid attention to that.  I've just tried to avoid having a lot of negative affinities on my gear, which hasn't seemed to be that big of a problem.  But yeah, building your own weapons is great, and it's even cooler because you spend so much time tempering them in combat.  After all that, watching them bloom into an even better weapon is just really satisfying.

[gpw11]

Yeah, good call on the affinities.  I don't think I ever got close to having a weapon anywhere near a hundred, but using the one weapon for two enemy type system I probably got up there.  The other key thing is the gem slots.  You can get gems to raise each affinity a certain ammount, so in boss fights it's usually a good idea to switch it around from one to the other if you need to.

But yeah, it sounds like you're handiling the learning curve now.  That's the thing - when you're first starting there's almost way too much stuff to worry about.  You can simplify the game substantially by not messing with the affinity types too much, while also avoiding getting too far into the combining aspect of weapon creation.  You won't be as powerfull as you can be (which will keep you the fuck out of the optional dungeon in a later playthrough), but you can get through it as long as you get good with chaining and using your defensive skills. 

As for armour affinity;  I've played through the game completely four times I believe and made it a fair bit through at least a few more and I've never worried about it.  I think some people do because they want to create the ultimate armour, but who the fuck wants to carry around three copies of everything and constatly having to switch between them?  That's just me.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, the armor thing is just too much micromanagement for me.  Weapons is doable, and even that can be a little annoying at times, but anything beyond that would be too much.

I continue to love this game with every hour that passes, even though sometimes it also makes me want to kill myself.  Today for instance:

I hit a save at a workshop and do all kinds of cool stuff.  Get some new weapons and armors crafted, get some nice class affinity bonuses, all that good junk.  I feel like I'm on top of the world and can handle anything.  So I go to the neighboring area because I haven't explored it yet and it seems like the logical next step, and there's a new enemy type.  Little doll demon things.  Yay!  I dispatch them post-haste with my giant demon-slaying katana.  No biggie.  Then all of a sudden there's this horrible harpy thing with a disturbing head, and it gets an intro like a boss.  I'm not using a good weapon, so the first few hits don't do much, and I switch out to other gear while the stupid bird does nothing but "Drain Mind" on me over and over.  I'm about to hit it again, when suddenly it casts "Banish".  This spell is, for all intents and purposes, instant death.  Drains HP to zero, you either defend in a timely manner, or you die.  I died.

Fuck.

Okay, so I try again.  This time, two hits with my new super-mace (which is meant for humans but apparently does tons of damage to the harpies) and the thing is gone.  I get my stuff, and I guess it wasn't a boss after all.  Just a new enemy.  Yay.  I head into the next room.  I don't know what the guy in there is, but he looks like an elemental just with a skull mask or something.  I prime myself with some spells and such, whip out the new phantom-smashing axe (high light affinity and undead class, though phantom is pretty decent also for the time being), and run up to him.  He casts a spell called "Radial Surge", and it does a multitude of good-sized, smaller hits, essentially killing me in a single strike.

Fuck.

So I get back into the game and go at it again.  This time I'm smart and I make sure to equip all my magic protection stuff so that his spell can't destroy me in one go.  So I go through the first couple rooms, kill the harpy, then take the guy out.  He tries the spell again, but instead of multiple 50s and 60s popping up around me, it's 10s and 13s and a couple misses.  Sweet.  He gives me stuff, and I move on.  Then I run into more harpies, which don't pose much of a problem, and then (to my surprise) another of these phantom guys.  Only it isn't a boss.  I run up to him to kill him, thinking he must surely be a lot easier, and he promptly kills me in one hit with the same damned spell as his big brother because I had my evil weapon (the katana) out and no shield (which had the magic protection stuff).

Fuck.

Back to square one.  I do the run over again, but this time kill the other phantom guy.  Okay, no big deal.  I'm learning.  So where the hell is the save?  A few more rooms and I run into another boss, this one like the Dullahan and other possessed armors.  He isn't too bad, and a couple negative spells later, he goes down quick.  Save must be right after, right?  No, it's another phantom guy with his doll girlies.  Damn it.  I kill those, and the worst is over.  Got a dead end, and a key, and the key unlocks the way out.  Sweet.  I head out and start pissing off some harpies that respawned after the boss died, and I'm killing them just for laughs because they're so easy.  Except... wait, there are several of them, and after a couple of unlucky misses, my risk is a little high.  Oh, no big deal.  I'll just run away for a sec and wait for --

Fuck.

Apparently all harpies can cast Banish.  SON OF A BITCH.  This is taking like 20 minutes each time I go through this, and I'm getting a little fed up.  So I do it all over again, beat the two bosses, beat the phantoms, and am very cautious with the harpies now, casting Magic Ward whenever I don't kill them before they have a chance for action.  I get to the door that leads to the next area, and am very happy.  Surely a save awaits me.  I'd go back and save at the one where I last saved, except that leaves this particular area and everything would respawn, and that would be just as annoying as fighting the bosses again.  So I press on through the door, and... no, it's a dark elemental.  FUCK.  Fortunately I went on a different path earlier in the game, facing one of these before I technically had to (as there's an optional area you can go through which most people probably end up doing first), so I knew what to do.  His first spell took a good chunk out of me because I wasn't ready, but I recovered and proceeded to brain him thoroughly.  Cool.  Through the next door, and I'm back inside the city walls north, where lizard guys like to hang out.  These guys haven't posed a problem because I have a decent dragon weapon, but I just realized that when I last converted it I turned it into a super-powered dagger.  That may not have been smart, because the lizard guys have lances and like to run away after each hit, and the dagger has no range at all.  I'm worried... but fortunately, it all turns out okay.  I don't have as much trouble catching them as I thought, and I end up the victor after all.  I head out of the walls, find a nearby save point, and turn off my PSP with a huge sigh of relief.

Man what a great fucking game.  It's so good that the expletive really does need to be there, or the statement just doesn't seem potent enough.  Great fucking game.  What's so brilliant is that your character doesn't really need to level up, you do.  Either you anticipate things and play smart, or you die.  It's that simple.  *You* need to evolve, not your character.  His equipment gets better, he gets more tools to vanquish the enemy, and more abilities and such, but if you don't figure out how to use them effectively, they might as well not even be there.

[MysterD]

That review needs a lot more cussin', Que.

[Cobra951]

Meanwhile, back at Square One . . .

OK, so I have this yellow limb in the little silhouette of my guy in the lower-left corner.  HP is full.  (It regenerates slowly.)  I know I have cure items, but those are rated in HP.  I don't need HP.  I need to fix my stupid arm.  What do I do?

The buttons feel wrong.  I would have chosen X (bottom) to attack and circle (right) to back out or cancel.  I need to get used to this, or remap in ePSXe. 

It is, after all, my very first attempt to play this.  I'm all thumbs, and not in a good controller way.

[JacksRag(e)]

Argh, all this talk makes me want to play again.  Now I need to find where I put the disk.  I know I couldn't have lost it.....
Buh, I'll just go back to Final Fantasy Tactics...

[Cobra951]

So you don't know the answer to my yellow-arm-itis?

[gpw11]

Healing spells and healing items will repair your body parts, but regeneration won't if I remember correctly.

[Cobra951]

OK, thanks.  That's just, strange.  Full HP, but I'm still hurt somehow.

[gpw11]

No worries.

And yeah Que, I never thought about it that way but you're totally right about how you have to learn and evolve instead of your character doing so.  All of the enemies become extremely easy if you have the right equipment and go about attacking them the right way, the entire point of the game is almost to find out what works.  The last few times I played the game I did it through ePSXe, so I haven't run into the save point frenzy, but thinking back to it, there were certainly some intense moments the first time I played it on my PSX.  Getting the hang of defensive skills is what made the huge difference for me. 


If you're already into affinities and weapon building this might help you out;  There's a dummy for each enemy type spread out through the game.  Attacking it will increase the affinity of each weapon, and it's a great way to practice chaining as well.

[Quemaqua]

I've heard rumors about that, but have only found one at this point (and forgot where it was, heh).  I'm sure I could look it up easily enough.

Cobra, that's one of the other systems that can be a little overwhelming at first, though it shouldn't be too big of a problem for you until about halfway through the game.  The various limbs on you and your enemies have their own individual "health" states.  It goes from blue, to green, to yellow, to orange, to red (I think), and red is *bad* (it's "dying" status).  If any of your parts get down that far, you're going to start suffering from pretty major consequences.  I can't remember what they are, but legs hamper movement, I think head hampers ability to cast spells, and left arm is defense while right arm is attack power (or something like that).  But like I said, this shouldn't be a big issue until about halfway through the game, because that's when enemies can come close to literally one-shotting your limbs into dying status if you aren't careful.  You may come across an enemy who doesn't do a ton of damage to you HP-wise, and who is fairly easy to kill, but if they actually hit you, your limbs suffer the consequences.  It's really just another strategic element to worry about.  But again, don't worry about it too much now.  You'll wrap your head around it by the time you get to where it really matters, I think.  Just remember that any kind of healing item will heal the status of your limbs, but just standing around won't.  You're going to get in the habit of healing after nearly every battle where you actually get hit, most likely, at least once you get past the early game.

[EDIT - Also, MP recovers by standing around about twice as fast as HP, so you'll find yourself naturally using a couple heal spells just because it's always faster.]

And yes, the button setup is weird.  Well, for us.  That's actually the standard setup in Japan.  Where X is always "go" for us and O is "back out", it's just the opposite over there by default.  O is go, X is out.  I think you can swap those in the options somewhere, but I could be wrong.  In ePSXe though, it should be easy enough to swap them if you have to.  I've played enough games now that use this standard to have just adapted (though it's weird using it on PSP, because the PSP controls are naturally the opposite... so I end up backing out of the menu to start the game sometimes, heh).

[gpw11]

I actually wish the system had more of an effect on the game in both an offensive and defensive capacity.

[idolminds]

You know, this is a nice looking game. And I don't even turn texture filtering on. I like the pixely-ness of the textures. They were so low res they are essentially pixel art anyway, and filtering messes that up.

Just thought I'd say that. I have a soft spot for gritty PSX textures like this (also seen in Tomb Raider).

[Quemaqua]

I think this is the best looking game on the Playstation.  It's really very pretty, even now.

[gpw11]

Oh, I think it's easily the best looking, both technically and from an artistic standpoint.

[Cobra951]

It's on the dark side for me.  I'm using the brightest settings on my display, which I normally only use for movies with a lot of muddy dark scenes.  And it's still too dark.  I can see everything, but it does not look pretty.  Does it get into brighter areas later?

I want to play this some more.  With so much other stuff, it's hard to dedicate the time to it.

Edit:  I'll try to come up with a custom NVidia profile for this if all else fails.  I'm not a fan of sending the desktop into ultra-bright mode to compensate for stuff that doesn't handle its own lighting well.  I wish the emulator plugin would let me ramp up brightness.

[gpw11]

What plugin are you using?  And can you post a screen shot?  The start of the game is dark because you're in a dungeon, but it shouldn't be that bad.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, I haven't noticed any problem at all on my display.  The game can be dark, but it shouldn't be hard to see or anything.  Looks pretty much fine on my install  of ePSXe.  Not sure what plugin I'm using though.

 ...

Pete's D3D driver 1.76.

[Cobra951]

Pete's Open GL 1.72  I also tried the D3D plugin (same version).  No help.  I guess I'm going to have to play with the video-card's settings.

[Quemaqua]

ePSXe is far from perfect.  I always have funkiness with it.  Wonder why they stopped development?  It's such a great start, and it seems like things could improve with just a bit more work.

[gpw11]

They stopped development (unofficially) because the emulator had hit the point where any further improvements take so much effort for very little reward.  Officially, I don't thnk development has stopped, or at least that's what the creators claim - hence their reason to not make it open source.

It might not be perfect, but it's pretty close.  I've used it for all my ps games since probably 2001 or 2002.  I've run into a total of one game that had a major problem - Valkyrie Profile.  You couldn't use save states.  Well, you could, but at the risk of freezing your game sometime in the future.  To be fair, every single emulator has this problem with this game, but frequency is another issue.

Beyond that, the problem so many people have with it is that there are so many options and you literally have to change them for every game.  I don't think there's really any way around that.  If you're switching games a lot, use a front end loader that saves settings for individual games, but in my expierience if you spend enough time doing it and do a bit of reseach, you can get almost every game very close to perfect.

[Quemaqua]

My big issue is sound.  There's almost always something off somewhere.  VS is mostly perfect, but the rain is fucked up, and the part in the opening when the gate closes and Ashley looks back... it sounds horrendously strange.

[Cobra951]

Footsteps and other percussive effects were way off for me until I switched to the P.E.Op.S. DSound driver 1.7.  I was using Pete's DSound 1.14.  I don't know if this will end up breaking more things than it fixes.  I have more audio drivers here than video.  I haven't updated any of them in so long.  I need to go look and see what's new.  The emulator may no longer be under development, but the independent drivers might be.

[gpw11]

The sound is fucked by default in this game.  The best way to tell I find is by checking the part right at the start of the game where Ashley cuts the stop in the gear for the gate or drawbridge before entering the manor. Save a game right before that, and load it up after fucking around with the sound options.  If that sounds normal, it's good.  I've had it close perfect or near perfect before, but I've also had a bitch of a time remembering what to change to get it there so I'd give up.  The forums at ngemu.com are great for questions regarding ePSXe settings, but the actual site sucks.

[gpw11]

This was on sale on PSN a few weeks ago and I bought it for like $3.  Currently playing on the Vita.   

1.)  It works great on the Vita.  This is pretty much what it's made for.  That said, the last couple times I played I did so in ePSXe aaaaaand...well, it's hard to go back to not having save states.  Not in a "shit, I just died, better load up that save from 30 seconds ago" kind of way, but more in a "I want to stop right here now" sort of way.   Sure, I can just suspend the game, but it's kind of not the same.   Save states and I have no problem playing for 20 min at a time.  Save points and I still feel the need to get to the next one.   Weird.  I just ran through one of those time trial gauntlets, beat the boss at the end, and then died on a normal enemy and lost about twenty minutes.  Not the hugest deal, but it reminded me how much die and lose time in later areas if you go about things the wrong way.  Again, part of the fun, but at this point in life, with a backlog about a million miles long and so much limited time, it just seems kind of a waste because I know I'll grind through certain sections like they're a chore.  At that point, why bother?


2.) I don't think I'm going to make it all the way through.  I'm like 9 hours in and remembering things coming up, and really, it just kind of seems daunting.  I love it, but it needs to be refined, and getting older and having time being more valuable, it makes it harder to put up with the little annoyances (that I used to not notice).  LET ME FUCKING QUICK SWAP WEAPONS

3.) This is Dark Souls before there was Dark Souls.  I liked Dark Souls but couldn't get too into it - I almost liked it just because it was quite a bit like Vagrant Story in a lot of ways - exploring, etc, but also how you had to get better yourself.  Not in the same reflex-driven way, but you had to know what to do where and what weapon to use on whom, etc. 

4.) There should be a remake or a sequel one day.  The world is about ready.

[gpw11]

And deleted.  I'm just going back to FEZ.

[Quemaqua]

Wuss.

 ... but I know what you mean. I've sort of felt that way every time I've thought about going through it again since I still didn't beat it last time. Great game, but I think there are just so many systems to learn the ins and outs of that it's a little too daunting for its own good. I have no doubt I'll play it again someday. Just not sure when that will be.

[Cobra951]

Hello, and welcome to last decade.  I had forgotten that I had played this at all.  I must have wussed out early, Que.  Haha!  FF XII I remember vividly, and fondly.  (Thanks again, Que!)

[Quemaqua]

You're welcome, and I'm glad! This brought back so many memories. Can you believe it's been 7 years?

[Cobra951]

7 years.  Sounds Biblical.  So much has happened in that time too, though in some ways it feels like it flew by.