Topic: Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD

[wizall]

So what's the story with BD vs HD at present?  I'm not talking technologically, but just which format is expected to survive.  I read the article (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5965) that Pug posted and they attribute BD's recent surge to the PS3's release. 

I'm curious because I'd really like to get the HD add-on for the X360.  At $200, it's not a bad deal and I'm not all that concerned with the aesthetics of the thing.  But it's still $200.  I've downloaded a few trailers on Live in 720P and it's hugely noticeable.  Also, Netflix has a ton of movies in HD (as well as BD), so I don't need to necessarily sink a lot of money into a library just yet.

What do you think?  Is it just too soon to tell?  I get a little twitchy each time I spot the HD-DVD add-on in stores. 

Thanks, guys.

[iPPi]

I still think it's too soon to tell, but I would still lean towards HD-DVD myself.  The only reason why I haven't gotten the HD-DVD drive for the 360 is because of the fact that there are exclusive BD movies at this point, so I don't want to join the bandwagon of HD just yet.

I mean, the primary reason BD is doing well right now is because of the fact that there are no games to play on the PS3, so people who own PS3s are buying BD movies so that they're using their PS3s. 

I was almost absolutely decided to get the HD-DVD drive a couple weeks ago but I think I'll hold off for a bit...There's really no rush as a consumer to get these new formats just yet and end up getting screwed over in the future.

[Antares]

I think the role of PS2 VS Xbox 360 in the war is relatively minimal when it comes down to it.  I personally prefer HD, but It seems I hear the phrase "Available on DVD and Blu Ray" a whole lot more than I'm hearing "Available on DVD and HDDVD" which scares me a bit.  There is still a long way to go.  Most of the unwashed masses don't seem to realize that DVDs themselves don't quailfy as "High Definition"

[Quemaqua]

I couldn't give less of a fuck than I do about either format, really.  As a consumer I don't feel the need for either one.  Not on any level whatsoever.  Obviously that's just me, but I'm very tired of wasting money on shit that doesn't actually make any difference to me.  This would be one of them, Vista would be another.  I'm just not going to do it any more.

[JacksRag(e)]

 Also, Sony just announced a new $600 BD player that does everything their $999 player does in addition to being able to play normal CDs.  Yeah, figure that one out, you drop a grand on a player that doesn't even read CDs.  So, this puts them more in line with the HD-DVDs price range.  It might make them a bit more dangerous, though you gotta wonder now, they price their new player at the same price as the PS3.  Wonder where that'll go.

[Pugnate]

HD DVDs and Blu-Ray discs are the same price as regular DVDs.  Say you buy 2 HD DVDs a month, which is about 50 in a couple of years. Since you are paying the same price for the discs, and the player cost you $200, you are basically paying $4 extra per HD DVD till you buy 50.

I still think you should hold off though. The reason is that I think Blu Rays are selling a lot more, and there is more exclusivity with them considering the Sony owns 30% of the movies out there. Will those movies ever come to HD DVD?

I would personally wait for the player that could handle both.

I personally won't go for it, because I enjoy my multimedia on my comp. To play a next gen disc I need to have a compliant monitor, a compliant video card and an OS that I don't want. I realize they've put these restrictions to stop piracy, but I still think it is B.S.

For guys with big HDCP compliant TVs the choice is much easier.

BTW, did Blu-Ray sort out the visual problems? I remember reading about how surprisingly the HD-DVD movies looked much better.

I personally prefer HD, but It seems I hear the phrase "Available on DVD and Blu Ray" a whole lot more than I'm hearing "Available on DVD and HDDVD" which scares me a bit.

That's exactly it.

[scottws]

I think Blu-Ray will win, as much as I hate to say it.  It's the better format in terms of quality, but it is also a Sony format meaning it's horribly DRM-ridden.

Honestly though, I'm staying out of the HD-DVD movie thing for awhile.  There are all these different versions of HDCP and there are even players out that use a version of HDCP that isn't compatible with any current TV on the market.  People are just going to get burned real bad on all this shit.

[Cobra951]

That's it.  It's too early for more than the usual reasons.   (Early adoption is expensive, extremely if the format fails after you bought a library of titles.)  The usual bullshit over copy protection has taken a very nasty turn with high-def DVDs, and HD in general.  Once the HDCP image-constraint token starts getting enabled in video releases, what you'll have in most setups is an expensive 480P player.  Analog (component) will be forced to downsample, and only if both the player and the TV support HDCP-compliant HDMI will you get HD on that content.  But the X360 doesn't support HDMI, so then what?  It's unclear whether the VGA output wold also force downsampling, but I would not assume that you'll get away with using this interface for HD until the dust settles, and all the rules are set in stone.  Besides, the colorspace the X360 outputs does not match the VGA colorspace, producing a washed-out image on anything which does not directly support it (i.e., most monitors and VGA-supporting TVs).

[Antares]

I'm staying out for now as well, although the difference in visuals between a HD image and a DVD is significant.  Although, I'm comparing Cable HD to regular DVD.  I've never seen the quality of either new option.

There really is no downside to waiting.

[Jedi]

I'm staying out for now as well, although the difference in visuals between a HD image and a DVD is significant.  Although, I'm comparing Cable HD to regular DVD.  I've never seen the quality of either new option.

There really is no downside to waiting.

Oh yeah staying well out of it too.
And if the stories are right their releasing a new 360 with HDMI (and a 120Gig HD).

[Pugnate]

When it came to DVDs I was an early adopter. I was buying DVDs when they cost $30+. I actually bought a DVD drive when it was 2x speed and a year before DVDs even started hitting stores with some regularity.

Yet I can't find myself going either way in this war. The restrictions are bullshit.

[WindAndConfusion]

I think Blu-Ray will win, as much as I hate to say it.  It's the better format in terms of quality, but it is also a Sony format meaning it's horribly DRM-ridden.

As opposed to HDDVD which, being a Microsoft format, is full of Love and Candy which it pours upon the consumer like a veritable cornucopia of Magical Happy Fucking Rainbows.

Fortunately the DRM in both formats is broken, and it is possible to completely usurp the central authority within about 2⁴⁰ operations. (I posted a paper on the subject on this board before...)

[Cobra951]

Doesn't Blu-Ray have an extra form of DRM?  No one thinks Microsoft is love and puppies.  They're behind the whole HDCP crap, after all.  HD DVD just seems to be the lesser of the 2 evils.  I'm not getting into either one for a long time to come, and I waste no love on either of these companies.  Yet given a choice, I'd opt to exclude Sony from anything media-related.  If Blu-Ray wins, I'd have no choice, and the argument is moot.

[JacksRag(e)]

As opposed to HDDVD which, being a Microsoft format, is full of Love and Candy which it pours upon the consumer like a veritable cornucopia of Magical Happy Fucking Rainbows.

Fortunately the DRM in both formats is broken, and it is possible to completely usurp the central authority within about 2⁴⁰ operations. (I posted a paper on the subject on this board before...)

I seem to remember HDDVD being a format led by Toshiba and Microsoft just throwing its support in.

[Jedi]

I seem to remember HDDVD being a format led by Toshiba and Microsoft just throwing its support in.

That's the way I remember it too, and restrictions MS is putting in place through Vista is there becuase media companies are demanding it. MS has little interest in HDCP as they've got no media of their own to protect., their interest is to keep the studios happy so that this software can play their movies etc. And HDCP isn't limited to MS software it'll be fucking everywhere by the end of the year and that's being driven by those with the media to protect. MS shouldn't be the target of hate here I'm not saying their a pawn in the bigger picture or anything though!
And yes it's already broken I think someone posted about it a few months back.

[WindAndConfusion]

I seem to remember HDDVD being a format led by Toshiba and Microsoft just throwing its support in.

The software side of things (the codecs, the DRM standards, et cetera) are pretty much all Microsoft.

And wasn't Toshiba on the Blu-Ray consortium?

[JacksRag(e)]

I don't believe so, Toshiba was one of the original developers of HD-DVD.  I remember there being talks about some sort of compromise between the two sides, but talks broke down and they went on with their separate releases.

[scottws]

Well, the Toshiba logo appears on the bottom of the HD-DVD homepage.

http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/

[WindAndConfusion]

I don't believe so, Toshiba was one of the original developers of HD-DVD.

Doesn't mean they're not also on the BRC. Most manufacturers have been "playing both sides" this whole time. (Edit: But not Toshiba. Dang.)

[PyroMenace]

God how I hate these 2 formats. Its gonna be like consoles. Your decision on buying a player won't be about technology, but what movies its gonna be allowed to play. I know this has been said before, but its one of the most transparent and retarded consumer traps I've ever seen.

[Pugnate]

I think the way to go is one of those players than handle both.

Actually the way to go is not buy anything yet.

[iPPi]

God how I hate these 2 formats. Its gonna be like consoles. Your decision on buying a player won't be about technology, but what movies its gonna be allowed to play. I know this has been said before, but its one of the most transparent and retarded consumer traps I've ever seen.

I totally agree with you.  I was so close to getting the HD-DVD drive for the 360 but as I was looking through the movie selection, I realized that blu-ray had lots of 'exclusives' as well, and that really tells me that both formats are both too new to jump on to without getting screwed over. 

But this is just a tug-of-war right now.  I can only forsee two things occurring. 
1. One format wins, and becomes the dominant format for the next x years.
2. We'll get a hybrid player.

[Cobra951]

. . . and

3.  The whole copy-protection mess gets sorted out, or thoroughly cracked.  (Either works for me.)

Anything you get now you need to look at as disposable.  If you can't, then wait.

I've watched a few normal DVDs on my brother's 42" plasma, including an episode of Band of Brothers.  I see absolutely no reason to rush to replace this.  It looks awesome, just the way it is.  I've had less visceral experiences in theaters.  (Yeah, the 5.1 surround helped too.)

[WindAndConfusion]

3.  The whole copy-protection mess gets sorted out, or thoroughly cracked.  (Either works for me.)

Both AACS and HDCP were fatally compromised before they ever got to market. The HDCP thing was especially hilarious.

Cryptanalysis researchers demonstrated fatal flaws in HDCP for the first time in 2001, prior to its adoption in any commercial product. Scott Crosby of Carnegie Mellon University authored a paper with Ian Goldberg, Robert Johnson, Dawn Song, and David Wagner called "A Cryptanalysis of the High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection System". This paper was presented at ACM-CCS8 DRM Workshop on November 5, 2001.[1]

The authors conclude:

    "HDCP's linear key exchange is a fundamental weakness. We can:

• Eavesdrop on any data
• Clone any device with only their public key
• Avoid any blacklist on devices
• Create new device keyvectors.
• In aggregate, we can usurp the authority completely."

Among other fun things, I think this makes it possible (in theory at least) to extract arbitrary Volume ID keys on AACS-protected discs.

Anything you get now you need to look at as disposable.  If you can't, then wait.

I have a feeling all this format war shit is going to end up sinking both technologies (in the long run, anyway).

[idolminds]

Thats the great part about the DMCA. The DRM doesn't have to be effective in any way, it just has to be there so when people bypass it you can call them criminals.

[WindAndConfusion]

Thats the great part about the DMCA. The DRM doesn't have to be effective in any way, it just has to be there so when people bypass it you can call them criminals.

The DMCA is getting harder and harder to use, though. You can't actually stop software development with it, although you can still forcibly censor tens of thousands of websites and inconvenience hundreds of thousands of people with it.

[Cobra951]

I read up on that earlier.  The disheartening thing is that the lawsuits (I assume for declaratory judgement) have gone nowhere, or at least I have not heard of them getting anywhere.  All they were trying to do is affirm their right to free speech.  I've said before that the DMCA is unconstitutional since it punishes the dissemination of information, not just direct acts of piracy.   Researchers can get indicted like criminals for publishing what they discover.   It's a clear violation of the First Amendment.  Here we are in '07, and that so un-American law still stands.

What do you mean that the DMCA can't be used to stop software development?  Have there been limitations imposed on the law?  That would be a bit of good news, but only a bit.  The whole thing needs to come toppling down.

[WindAndConfusion]

What do you mean that the DMCA can't be used to stop software development? 

First, there are specific exceptions built in to the DMCA for research, inter-compatibility, et cetera. Second, plaintiffs have lost several important judgments that set legal precedent. Third, the DMCA's real purpose - to intimidate people with the costs of litigation - has been substantially undermined by recent cases which suggest plaintiffs will be paying attorney's fees for most every favorable judgment they don't secure. (There was a story about it within the last few weeks on Ars Technica, but I'm having trouble finding the link - one of my squirrels just dropped dead of a heart attack, looks like.)