Author Topic: Microsoft sued over points system  (Read 3392 times)

Offline iPPi

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Microsoft sued over points system
« on: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 08:04:15 PM »
Class action lawsuit targeting the fact that you purchase points in multiples of 1000, but purchases are in multiples of 400, making purchase of excess points that do not render any goods or services.

I agree with this one.  The point system is retarded.  You buy 1000 points and are left with 200 points in excess if you purchase an 800 point or two 400 point games.  It gets worse if you use their video on demand service since a rental is like 480 or 560 points or something like that.  Essentially, your account is filled with 'useless' points unless you top it up with another 1000 (that's the minimum) points.

I currently have 400, and am considering buying Splosion Man (800), Shadow Complex (1200), and Trials HD (1200).  That's 3200 points.  I have 400 points spare so I need 2800 points.  Well I need to buy either the 5000 point pack, or the 1000 and 2000 point packs, and still have excess points to spare.  Stupid, stupid system. 

They need to just charge cash amounts.

I believe WiiWare also has this problem as well, but I don't use it at all so I cannot comment.

PSN doesn't have this problem thankfully.  Cash transactions only... no stupid point system.
« Last Edit: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 10:04:48 PM by iPPi »

Offline idolminds

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 08:27:33 PM »
After this, someone do something about the mismatch between hotdogs and hotdog buns. I know they do it on purpose!

But really, its about time. Its such bullshit.

Offline scottws

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 08:34:39 PM »
I think it's exactly the point that there is a mismatch.  It's almost like gift cards where they are a huge boon for the store selling them.  There are either small, unused amounts left on gift cards, or the small amounts are used along with more cash to make up the total price of a new purchase in order to clear the gift card.

The difference between Microsoft Points and gift cards is that there is no easy way to use remaining small balances of Microsoft Points.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 09:42:43 PM »
Yeah, it's total bullshit.  Good for whoever's doing it.  I hope they fry for it.  I've been rallying against the whole concept for forever... I was so glad when it turned out PSN didn't follow suit.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline W7RE

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 10:47:27 PM »
I dunno, I've managed to hit zero a few times with my MS points. Yes, it's extremely annoying when I want to buy something and have to spend up to $5 or so MORE so I'll have enough points. I'm not excusing the system or saying it's not bad, just that I always do manage to spend the points eventually. It's not money wasted, it's just money sometimes spent at a time not of my choosing.

Regardless, I hope this brings the death of MS points, or at least a revamping of them.

Offline Schlotzky5

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 10:50:36 PM »
Theres no reason not to use dollar values. You could make the excuse that 1000 points has a certain value no matter the currency that was used to buy it, but you still have to do the conversion when buying the points.

I've wound up with a few cents left in my PSN account a few times, but I recently linked it to a credit card that just auto-charges the exact amount.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 11:51:26 PM »
The point is that we should be able to buy things directly, not fill some account with fictitious currency, and then use it as a trumped-up medium of exchange.  At the very least, I should be able to buy exactly the number of points I need for each transaction, leaving zero behind every time.  Even that is retarded, but at least it isn't a ripoff.

I guess I hover around $2-3 excess in points.  Multiply that by a few million XBL users.  And that's probably a very low figure.  You know many people will have much more money than that hanging in limbo.  It's bullshit, and I hope they lose this one summarily.

Offline W7RE

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday, January 27, 2010, 12:03:52 AM »
What's confusing is that their Games on Demand charge directly to your associated credit/debit card for the cost of the game.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday, January 27, 2010, 12:32:05 AM »
There's no way that this is accidental and the only reason for it to exist is to milk money out of the consumer. I haven't used the XBL version but it's the same on the Wii and it pisses me off. Total fucking bullshit.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday, January 27, 2010, 09:56:45 PM »
Honestly, I don't think they're doing it for the spillage.  I think they're doing it because you have to buy blocks of points and it boosts their immediate revenue. Lets just hope they get their ass in gear and get a direct payment system up and running (lets not kid ourselves, we all know that they have all the details worked out -they were just waiting until they HAD to).

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #10 on: Thursday, January 28, 2010, 08:37:52 AM »
Honestly, I don't think they're doing it for the spillage.  I think they're doing it because you have to buy blocks of points and it boosts their immediate revenue.

 ???

I don't want a half-dozen, I want six.

Offline K-man

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #11 on: Thursday, January 28, 2010, 09:18:26 AM »
I'm betting the ultimate result of this lawsuit is a class-action settlement where all Xbox live subscribers receive 127 xbl points.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #12 on: Thursday, January 28, 2010, 08:55:56 PM »
???

I don't want a half-dozen, I want six.

From a business perspective (accounting really) there's a pretty big difference.

Something isn't spillage if it's claimed.  Usually, when purchases like this are activated through an account, left over change isn't considered spillage unless it can expire so you lose it.  With gift cards, people throw them away when they have an amount they consider unusable on it, averaging something like three dollars.  That is gone forever, and just becomes profit from no service being rendered.

Point block purchases, like this, are a bit different because you always retain the points in your account and it's assumed there is going to be an inflow and outflow of money in that account. It isn't spillage unless the account is rendered inactive. The number may not line up evenly, but the points are flowing through so it can't really be said that there are stagnant dollars in there. Generally, this is like front load invoicing, and done for cash flow reasons (the chance of free profit is awesome as well).  The thing is that with point block systems, if they were really going for the spillage, they'd just mess with the fake currency exchange rate in order to automatically include the spillage (the value is already obscured, 400 point purchases would now be 500).

Basically, spillage is free profit, point systems like this are revenue control mechanisms (generally). Don't get me wrong, it doesn't make it any more convenient - it's just a different motive and viewed as being somewhat more ethical.

A comparison would be the system that Skype used until very recently. It was point-block, but based on currency.  You had to buy a predefined amount ($10 US), but you could reload another block of that amount onto your account at any time. In that respect it was front loading.  It'd be easier for them to bill your card or account, but this way they had revenue to show up front and cash flow to work with before the product was used. What Skype got in trouble for, though, was they had it set up so your points would expire after 6 months of non-use.  That was there for the spillage and is pretty much illegal in most places.

Reading on this class action suit, it doesn't seem that they're going after Microsoft for the point system itself, but rather because of issues associated with it - like getting charged for downloads you've cancelled.

We'll see how it goes, but they really should switch the system over because it doesn't do them any good.  People tend to stay away from point block systems if they can because they're a headache to actually figure out a lot of times. 



Offline W7RE

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #13 on: Thursday, January 28, 2010, 09:16:41 PM »
Reading on this class action suit, it doesn't seem that they're going after Microsoft for the point system itself, but rather because of issues associated with it - like getting charged for downloads you've cancelled.

This part I don't quite get. Maybe I made a false assumption, but I thought you made a purchase BEFORE downloading, then you could download the purchased item at will. When I buy a game or addon, the download option appears AFTER I've spent the points. Who cares if you cancelled the download, you already bought it.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #14 on: Friday, January 29, 2010, 12:45:11 AM »
Yeah, I haven't used the system so I don't know exactly what they're talking about. It mentions fraud, which is tort rather than contract law.  That seems weird because there's nothing really apparently fraudulent about what Microsoft is doing.  It's a closed system, they can accept whatever they want in a transaction, and everyone is free to set prices as they wish. The points don't expire (I don't think).  Like, it's a shitty practice, but they're not the first or only to do it, and I can't see anything you'd find really fraudulent about it on the surface (unless they never mention the point system when you buy your....points.)  I kind of assumed the class action would be about breach of contract somehow, but I really can't see there being a very good tort argument.


Offline gpw11

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #15 on: Friday, January 29, 2010, 01:05:19 AM »
Got it. I guess headlines evolve?  He's not suing over the points system in general, he's suing because he got charged for transactions he said he could not complete because of technical difficulties (which he blames on Microsoft).  Well, as near as I can tell in general.  I can't see it going all that far - he kind of looks like an ambulance chaser.

That said, they should change the point system.

Offline W7RE

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #16 on: Friday, January 29, 2010, 01:12:25 AM »
Yea you never really lose your points, you just have money sitting in limbo while MS hopes you find something to spend those on (and preferably require you to buy another batch). The only time it's annoyed me is when I'm low on spending money and want to buy something without buying more points than I need.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #17 on: Friday, January 29, 2010, 01:45:16 AM »
The practical fact is that your leftover points money is not in limbo; it's in Microsoft's bank.  They have possession and use of it.  Anyone see Superman 3?  Richard Pryor's Ferrari?  (Or was it a Lamborghini?)

Offline gpw11

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Re: Microsoft sued over points system
« Reply #18 on: Friday, January 29, 2010, 01:49:36 AM »
Yeah, that's basically the plan. Use your points or not, they don't care because they already have your money.