Topic: Brad Wardell takes shots at dev's complaining about piracy

[MysterD]

Brad Wardell of Stardock is tired of hearing about dev's bitching about piracy.

Skinning the frog
My site for talking about the customization of Windows.

Oh wah, quit bitching about the pirates
Published on December 15, 2009 By Frogboy In PC Gaming

I’m going to write more on this later when I’m not so annoyed but I’m REALLY getting tired hearing from game developers who blame piracy for their game’s poor sales.

If you make a game for the console demographic, don’t expect to make huge PC sales, okay? Oh, and if you make your game require hardware that only a couple million users have, guess what? You’re not going to sell a lot of units.

More later.

+1 for Wardell.

[Pugnate]

Wow this guy is a real idiot. I guess he has forgotten how his company totally fucked up the Demigod launch.

And if the only reason people were pirating was system requirements, then why is it that the heaviest PC games have completely outsold his own titles with lower system requirements?

I am not interested in a guy's random b.s. when he himself has failed at publishing third party games.

And I'd like to see what PC game has a worldwide install base of 2 million. PC hardware has been ridiculously cheap for the past year, with even a $100 video card outperforming my 8800GTX. The 8800 series alone sold over 10 million units worldwide... and that was two years ago!

Mr. Wardell needs to prove first that he can successfully publish a third party game with low system requirements in this environment of intense piracy, before he can go about telling others how to do their job.

And no, 600,000 units sold is NOT an achievement. Good games do that on their own.

[MysterD]

Yes, piracy's a problem on the PC - I agree w/ that, Pug. It was a problem w/ Demigod, as well - as they had to try to find a way to get the pirates out. I think it's one of the main reasons that patches for the most part can only be gotten (for the most part) directly from Stardock - so that it makes the pirate want to have the newest version, so the only place to get it is to really go through Impulse; especially if a game has lots of updates and/or it does the updates itself to the game files w/out giving you a separate Patch ZIP package or what have you.

Anytime tons of people pirate your game, they're playing for free what they should be paying for in the first place - regardless if one think it's a "lost sale" or that pirate was a never a sale to begin with. I think piracy is one problem of MANY minor problems on the PC that the PC needs to straighten out - there's a handful of these problems that continue to add-up to this one big mess.

But, the problem is when "piracy" is always the excuse for PC games not selling well that so happen to be lazy PC ports of a console game (Res Evil 4, Prototype) and console games that get PC ports at a later date (Fable TLC PC, Gears of War PC), etc etc. Of course a game that was already sold on consoles - you're not gonna sell as much on the PC; it was ALREADY out on the consoles and many gamers likely bought it there already, so you're always plunging your PC sales down in the first place. Who the hell wants to be double-dipped on the PC version if you already own the same game already on the consoles?

I think what Brad's saying in the last two points that PC games that are made w/ the console demographic in-mind like won't likely sell too well here and too high of system requirements (Crysis and Assassin's Creed PC upon their original release) won't sell are also correct.
 
Annoying DRM schemes another problem on the PC. Activation online is annoying - especially for SP games - but I don't like install limits period. That's just turning my game into a rental product, pretty much.

Each different distributor having their own version of the game protected w/ their own DRM brew is another - i.e. Steam version protected by Steamworks; D2D version protected by D2D's DRM; Retail version protected by maybe Securom disc check. Each all being different version will likely render each version not compatible w/ each other - especially if there's upgrades, patches, DLC's, etc. If I buy Steam vanilla game, I gotta' likely buy DLC and expansions from there. There's too much chaos there. If I buy vanilla version from Steam, I should be able to buy that game's expansion if it's cheapest say on disc (without Steam). I liked when I was able to buy on DOW Gold on CD discs; DOW: Dark Crusade on Impulse - and I could run them all together.

[Pugnate]

Assassin's Creed was "leaked" 1 month on the PC before its released date. Ubisoft sued and settled with the disc copying company that was the source of the leak.

Crysis sold about 2 million copies, which is about 1.5 million more than Sins of a Solar Empire.

If you make a game for the console demographic, don’t expect to make huge PC sales, okay?

I definitely do agree with him here. I just find his "omg I need a $5000 PC to run this" and "don't blame pirates" mantra to be more in line with the whiny assholes who excuse their pirating ways.

[idolminds]

Demigod and Sins of a Solar Empire are 3rd party games that Stardock has published, and they have both done well.

The Demigod launch was fucked not specifically because of pirates, but because the network infrastructure was not up to snuff. Even without the large amount of piracy the game would have most likely had problems. That and it was a dumb decision for the game to try log in on startup, which didnt help anything.

[MysterD]

Assassin's Creed was "leaked" 1 month on the PC before its released date. Ubisoft sued and settled with the disc copying company that was the source of the leak.

This is why I say that dev's should constantly patch their game. B/c if they do so, the pirates have to keep up with it. And w/ enuff updates - and especially if they auto-download updates directly into your game folder (which likely have 1000+ files in there) like say a Steam or Impulse does - how the heck you gonna know what files got really added? You really gonna cycle through all of that mess? I don't think so.

If you get just the patched files, ah - now the pirate can work from those and they'll know what the new changed files are.

Crysis sold about 2 million copies, which is about 1.5 million more than Sins of a Solar Empire.

Of course, I'm sure Crysis cost a hell of a lot more money to make than Sins did.

I just find his "omg I need a $5000 PC to run this" and "don't blame pirates" mantra to be more in line with the whiny assholes who excuse their pirating ways.

No, you don't need a $5000 PC to run a new game - like Crysis, back when it first came. If I recall, a new $800 PC Crytek came up w/ could run Crysis PC, back when it came out.

EDIT:

Demigod and Sins of a Solar Empire are 3rd party games that Stardock has published, and they have both done well.

The Demigod launch was fucked not specifically because of pirates, but because the network infrastructure was not up to snuff. Even without the large amount of piracy the game would have most likely had problems. That and it was a dumb decision for the game to try log in on startup, which didnt help anything.

I'm sure having the pirates online didn't help matters either, as well - since they were jumping on and making the player count online even higher - which we knew Demigod's Network structure couldn't handle in the first place.

Again, it's not piracy hurting PC gaming. It's one part of the big puzzle.

[Pugnate]

For some reason I thought Stardock developed Sins.

Sins has sold about 500,000 units, while Demigod isn't even on the radar yet. Chris Taylor bitched a lot about Supreme Commander and piracy, and yet that still managed to outsell Demigod with nearly 900,000 units sold.

I think Brad Wardell is full of shit.

I'd like to see him publish a triple A third party game and make it an actual success in terms of sales and not profit margin.

Yes 500,000 for sins is a great profit margin, because it has a lower cost of production. But that's not a marketing or distributional achievement. That game would have sold that well regardless.

Here are a few links:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/04/demigod-sales-triumph-over-piracy.ars

From there Wardell is talking about how Demigod's sales are strong yadda yadda yadda on May 20th.

Here is another link with the self serving Wardell from 11th May:

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3174172

Demigod Sales Respectable Despite Being Heavily Pirated...Stardock CEO says it's example of not worrying about high piracy rates and just focusing on customers.

If he was any better at self serving, he'd be sucking his own dick...

Now this is a whole month later:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/demigod-expects-100-000-by-next-friday

Stardock boss Brad Wardell reckons multiplayer strategy game Demigod will break 100,000 users before launching in Europe next Friday, 29th May.

So a month after saying the game was doing well, he "reckons" the game will break a measly 100K etc.

I am telling you, this guy is full of shit and is a bit of a con artist. After Demigod, no developer will entrust him with a AAA game. And notice how Chris Taylor is completely silent about Demigod. I bet he is fuming inside.

The whole "gamers bill of rights" was full of stuff that just suited his company's model. Some of the parts had no sense in the context of that "bill"...

[idolminds]

I wonder what the total sales of Demigod are. From the Stardock 2009 Report:

Demigod continues to sell thousands of copies weekly – enough to remain at retail during the
Christmas season despite it coming out last Spring

Which is most likely true. The local Target stores here have just now put Demigod on the clearance rack. In contrast I've seen many newer games already go through there and off of the shelf. Currently Section 8 is also on clearance and it came out in September. So it would seem Demigod had some staying power there.

I'd like to see him publish a triple A third party game and make it an actual success in terms of sales and not profit margin.

I'm pretty sure most companies would prefer a profit over number of actual units sold. Being able to make a game cheaply so you don't need to sell 1 million units just to break even isn't some lesser form of game development, its a good business strategy.

Check this out. An interesting breakdown of all the games on the PS2 (er, all the ones that were released in North America and got a score on metacritic) and tracked them on a average review score vs lifetime sales. Its data from 2006, but still relevant for this discussion. Nearly 1300 games graphed on the hugely popular PS2 system. All of it is pretty interesting, but scroll half way down to see some strictly sales data graphs.

80% of the PS2 library shipped less than 300,000 units. Does that blow your mind or what? So it would make sense to aim to make a profit within that "zone", right? Doubly so for the PC (not as popular, easy piracy, etc).

I mean, Brad does like to flap his gums sometimes. I dont agree with everything on that "gamers bill of rights" thing, and you're right that it was rather self-serving. But I think the main message here is, really, people need to stop bitching about piracy so much. It can be bad, plan for it, but its going to happen and you fucking know it ahead of time. Don't like it? Dev for the PS3...pretty sure thats the only thing thats not cracked yet. But tossing on a bunch of DRM and shit it probably going to turn more people off and pirates are STILL going to do their thing so you'll have solved nothing.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, I agree with what idol said, more or less.  I don't think Wardell is full of shit... I think he's a businessman who's trying to drum up business, but I think at least he's trying to actually give his customers what they want rather than focus on everything else.  I certainly don't get the outrage.  We need more people out there who actually listen to what we say rather than constantly telling us how we should think.

And yeah, I've seen Demigod still at retail as well, even in places with really skimpy selection.

Regardless of sales figures, you have to look at the context.  The fact that Demigod is doing as well as it is after being totally hammered by some early reviews made when it had the launch problems says a lot about the quality of the actual product.  Those problems were definitely bad, but they had the dedication to really suck it up and fix the shit.  Of course it was in their interest to do this, but at least they were honest about it and kept us informed of where they were at and why things weren't working.  And Wardell was very outspoken about what went wrong, and they even offered to give people their money back.  That's all but unheard of.  As for Sins... you have to look at who made that game and what the budget was.  It was a shoestring operation with a couple of dudes.  The game's success is absolutely huge when you look at what it started as.  It's quite an interesting story.  500,000 copies is a big deal for a game that literally came out of nowhere.

Anyway, I just take his opinions as opinions.  He isn't always right, he isn't always wrong, but he runs what I consider a fine business and one of the few gaming establishments that I feel actually gives a shit about what I want as a consumer.  I've talked to him in chats a number of times (during the Demigod debacle and a bit after), and he's a pretty nice guy who will answer most questions you put to him flat-out, even if the answers aren't terribly rosy about some of their internal stuff.  I think he's a decent fella.

[Pugnate]

That's not surprising that 80% of those PS2 titles sold less than 300,000. We already know that 60% of all video games released don't meet the cost of production.

There is a huge load of garbage that gets released for the PS2 every year. Most of it comes from Eastern Europe and Asia. These games have such a low cost of production that a 100,00 lifetime gross should be somewhat of a triumph. The reason that stat may surprise some is that we don't really pay attention to these games. We are more concerned with spending our $50 on a good title, but there are dozens of games released every week, most of which we've never heard of. These games all become part of the statistic. Regardless, I am sure that even if we had a look at purely the AAA titles, we'd still be surprised by the numbers. I can't imagine most games breaking 500k.

But the point is that Brad Wardell has constantly targeted the AAA titles with his criticism. I am not talking about the Baby Donkey goes to the Big City game, which I am sure would be thrilled with Demigod's stats, but games like Crysis etc. Games with high production costs that need to sell 700,000+ just to break even. When Crytek sees the vast majority of people pirate their game, they have a right to be heart broken.

What Brad Wardell suggests that AAA titles need to lower their system requirements is ridiculous. He is assuming that people don't have the PCs to run these games when they do. But that misinformed attitude is not all that bothers me. Brad's suggestion is plain and simple a cop out.

I like AAA games on my PC.

Why should Crytek or any AAA developer lower their product's quality, at Wardell's suggestion, when none of his own published games have gone platinum. It would make sense if it were work. And to clarify, 500,000 units sold for Sins of a Solar Empire is a fantastic statistic, considering the low cost of production for that game. But really, would 500,000 units be enough for AAA titles on the PC? Like I said, I like to play these games on the PC rather than my 360 or my PS3. And I am just wondering how many units Sins would have sold had it actually found some fool proof piracy measure. The only reason Stardock can register 500K as a win for Sins is because of its lower cost of production. But what does that mean? That AAA developers downsize to indie stuidos? And really, Sins was a very very special product. In an ideal world, it would have broken a million.

If he is that smart a distributor/publisher, then why not suggest a way that AAA titles can actually get money from all the people who are playing their games on the PC. People have the PCs to run these AAA games, and these games do exist, so something is wrong in the center. To suggest that it is a problem with the system requirements rather than anything else just seems like appeasement to me.

Yea I am probably sounding more worked up than I should be .

I'll organize my thoughts and e-mail him. See what comes of it.

edit:

What price is Demigod going for these days at retail? It is $20 on eBay.

[Quemaqua]

I think it's a valid point.  Almost all the people I know who used to be into PC gaming but aren't as much anymore don't have the hardware to play anything.  It's an incredibly common thing.  You seem to think everybody and their grandmother has a great gaming rig... that's not true.  And there are plenty of people who build gaming rigs and don't use them for gaming.  They're just ignorant nobodies who want to build something that's awesome, even if it means nothing.  Hell, I have a coworker who has a gaming rig and she doesn't play any PC games except for WoW, and she knows several people who are the same.  Hardware sales do not equal game sales (even in the console world... see: Wii), and prohibitive system requirements do keep people from buying games.

[scottws]

I agree with Que.  Pug, your view is extremely myopic.  My PC is something like three years old now and it's still the best rig out of all the people I know outside of online forums.  There are a few people that have newer PCs, but they are crap as far as gaming goes.  Not everyone ran out and bought that $100 Radeon 4770.  Hell, I didn't even know that you could get a decent videocard for less than $300 until I saw that "Video Cards" thread on here a couple of days ago.  I'm not saying that people just don't have the rig to run these games, but you act like everyone does when that just isn't true.

And really, how can you say Wardell doesn't have valid points?  Seeing PC games becoming consolified like Rage, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, and Deus Ex: Invisible War is horrifying.  I only have personal experience with DX:IW, but I can state for a fact that the game sucked, primarily because of its consolification:  small levels, giant text and menus, bad textures, dumbed-down ammo and inventory system.  It wasn't even a shadow of what DX was.  I bet if they somehow faithfully reproduced a sequel to DX, it would have been a legendary game just like DX was but instead it will fade into history and people are glad to get the bad taste out of their mouths.  Now DX3's sales will probably suffer just because DX:IW was console trash.

I don't have CoD:MW2 yet (Christmas...), but I have a good friend that does and he is extremely frustrated by the consolified multiplayer.  These aren't totally great examples because you know CoD:MW2 will sell or has already sold gangbusters, but the point is that PC games are suffering from this affliction and it most decidedly does make them worse games.  They might still sell well, but they won't reach their true potential sales.

[Pugnate]

My views are formed by statistics I've read. "My friend" and "her friend" doesn't convince me, sorry. If we are talking real life friends, I have as many friends with current gen. consoles as I do with decent video cards. It was like Cobra said, why would you buy a sports car if you are going to keep it locked up.

The 8800 series sold 10 million units a year ago, but that was worldwide. Maybe the situation is different in North America? Not sure.

I would have been convinced had we been talking about an entire system. Had it been a PS3 for example, I could easily accept that its sales wouldn't directly correlate to game sales as it is also the best blu-ray device on the market.

But we are talking about a graphics card here with the sole purpose of playing games. I can accept that a small percentage just buy those for bragging rights, but surely 10 million people across the world didn't buy an 8800 series card just to test it out for the weekend. The card itself costs $200 to 300. It doesn't make sense.

The only purpose of a video card is to enhance your gaming experience. It is not a multipurpose device. You can't use it to speed up windows, or use photoshop, or edit videos. It isn't a piece of RAM, it isn't a processor, its sole purpose is to play games on. Default laptops and desktops are coming with built in video... you can't just buy it by accident.

As for the Nintendo Wii, it is an entirely different scenario. That is a casual gaming device, focused on the casual crowd who aren't looking to buy a lot of games anyway. It costs what $199? That's price of a single computer component: a video card.

My PC is something like three years old now and it's still the best rig out of all the people I know outside of online forums. 

I think it's a valid point.  Almost all the people I know who used to be into PC gaming but aren't as much anymore don't have the hardware to play anything.  It's an incredibly common thing.  You seem to think everybody and their grandmother has a great gaming rig... that's not true.

No jeeze, I don't think everyone has a great gaming rig . I just think the install base is at least half as wide as it is for the consoles.

I just have a question for you guys. These friends of yours... are they gamers? Do they own 360s and PS3s?

I am just asking, because I am not saying that every PC has a great video card. I am just saying that those that do, aren't all letting them collect dust.

And Scott... I do think Wardell makes a lot of good points, of course.

Hell, I didn't buy Mass Effect PC (despite being a Bioware junkie) till it was $9 on eBay purely because of the DRM. I actually skipped a lot of games that I wouldn't have because of DRM.

I just get a bit sickened when he takes the self-congratulatory route. I also think it is silly of him to ask AAA publishers to follow his formula, when by his formula he himself hasn't generated enough sales to meet the costs of a AAA title.

[idolminds]

We need a new term. What actually qualifies a game as "AAA" anyway?

But asking Stardock to make a "AAA" game and sell a million copies of it to qualify his statements is a little off. I mean, thats not what they do. They make the niche products and apparently it works out pretty well. Though I see your point. It would be better if his message was something more like "This works for us, there is a viable path here."

[Cobra951]

This thread has gotten extremely interesting.

Reading some of the comments above, I can see why kids get into fanboy wars.  It does take some maturity to let them slide.  The reason consoles have taken over the market is simple economics.  As Pug said, $200 is the cost of a single PC component, the video card.  You can get a whole current console for that, and not just the Wii.  Since piracy in consoles is much lower than on PCs, we'd be unrealistic to blame software devs for migrating to the affordable mass market.  And "affordable" has taken a much more real meaning around here in the past year and a half.

With more devs migrating to consoles, or at least focusing on them, and with more users doing the same, the possibilities for higher-quality content explode.  So does the amount of drivel, but that's what research and forums like our gaming board are for.

I thing Pug is on to something when he mentions getting money from everyone playing PC games.  Gaming is on a multiplayer high right now.  Here is something the devs can control.  When they take stabs at owning (and charging for) multiplayer in the PC world, they get burned in effigy; but like with anything else, it's just a matter of time before consumers succumb to the temptations and come-ons.  The (not so) new model: lower the price of multiplayer-centric games, charge a fee for playing (or doing anything else with the game) online.  People can still pirate and maybe even hack in private-server MP, but they'll be out of the big party without a way to crash it.  They'll need to pay admission at the door, regardless of how they acquired the software to begin with.

Pug's argument is very sound.  The huge sales of dedicated video cards I think do necessarily imply a lot of people playing graphics-intensive games on the PC, though we don't know for how long.  Some of them I'm sure tried it because of the buzz, but never really connected with it.  But I guess that can be said about any gaming rig (including consoles).  Still, the sales indicate a large base of potential game buyers, so if a way is found to tap it in a lucrative way, the PC as a triple-A gaming platform may be viable well into the future.  If devs get away from going crazy with hardware requirements, their playground gets that much bigger.

[Pugnate]

We need a new term. What actually qualifies a game as "AAA" anyway?

But asking Stardock to make a "AAA" game and sell a million copies of it to qualify his statements is a little off. I mean, thats not what they do. They make the niche products and apparently it works out pretty well. Though I see your point. It would be better if his message was something more like "This works for us, there is a viable path here."

By AAA I mean triple A. A triple A title seems to be the term used for big budget games like Modern Warfare, Crysis, Doom, Company of Heroes, Sup.Com etc.

But of course it seems off. That's my point... it is off, and it only works for the niche products. So in essence he seems to be asking developers to compress their AAA titles into niche ones, because that's where his method is working quite beautifully.

I know we all hate the the whole DLC trend, but apparently it is helping combat piracy. It seems that because all this DLC is very difficult to pirate, pirates are turning into paid customers.

Obviously there is no solid evidence of this, but there is no doubt that DLC is having a positive affect on sales. Like Borderlands for example... it was at no10 on the steam best sellers list, above Dragon Age, when the DLC came out. Suddenly both Borderlands and the DLC were at #3 and #4, well past the four or five games they were behind.

[Quemaqua]

I don't know, I think you guys overestimate a lot of stuff.  What else am I supposed to go on other than the people that I know and have experience with?  My alternative is hearsay.  I feel I made my point.  I know several people with good video cards (either that shipped with their rig or that they bought and had someone install for them) that don't really play games.  They might play WoW, but they wouldn't buy Crysis even if their computer were 3 times as powerful.  You seem to think that the PC isn't a casual gaming device, but I hate to break it to you, it's one of the biggest casual gaming devices that exists.

[MysterD]

And really, how can you say Wardell doesn't have valid points?  Seeing PC games becoming consolified like Rage, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, and Deus Ex: Invisible War is horrifying.  I only have personal experience with DX:IW, but I can state for a fact that the game sucked, primarily because of its consolification:  small levels, giant text and menus, bad textures, dumbed-down ammo and inventory system.  It wasn't even a shadow of what DX was.

100% agreed.

I don't have CoD:MW2 yet (Christmas...), but I have a good friend that does and he is extremely frustrated by the consolified multiplayer.  These aren't totally great examples because you know CoD:MW2 will sell or has already sold gangbusters, but the point is that PC games are suffering from this affliction and it most decidedly does make them worse games.  They might still sell well, but they won't reach their true potential sales.

When a game does NOT take advantage of its platform, that's a grave mistake - and just asking for gamers of that platform to possibly say, "I'll put my $50-60 elsewhere."

We're seeing it happen more and more - PC games like Call of Juarez: Bound in Blood, Prototype, Street Fighter 4, and Borderlands ALL have issues on some of their pre-rendered videos w/ sound issues - REGARDLESS of it you're running kick-ass audio sound card w/ the newest drivers or not. I'm tired of this trend. It's freakin' annoying. These companies are spending more time w/ bug-testing the console counterparts than their PC counterparts - and the PC counterparts probably need way more testing than the console version (since there's going to be unlimited number of variables of hardware gamers are gonna be running the PC version on).

I'm ALSO not very happy to see PC versions of COD: MW2 and also Rage NOT having ded-server support. Worst of all, MW2 doesn't have mod tools - though, we're soon going to get an announcement on if there will be any, according to Robert Bowling. When you take away something from gamers that they love and are used to - you're going to get big-time backlash.

You know, I'm not the biggest Valve around, but you know what? They really nailed the MP for L4D2 - and I've had NO net-connection troubles w/ this like I did w/ the original now and then. At least they listen to their PC gaming fans for that basic kind of stuff. Sure, L4D2 is pretty much the same damn game as L4D1 w/ a few new little tweaks and whatnot - but at least they allow for ded-servers and stuff PC gamers like and they do plan to give us a SDK - even if we might see the SDK probably in 2012. MW2 should've just used the same MP ded-server style that worked perfectly fine in COD4:MW and nobody on the PC would've complained. B/c you know what? Call of Duty is such a big series - if they start a trend, regardless of if its good or bad and they still make tons of sales, it's going to be a trend other dev's and publishers will follow.