Topic: What it feels like to laugh and weep for humanity at the same time.

[Quemaqua]

Today I came across an application (you'll remember I work for a local child support office).  When the guy was listing the physical characteristics of his ex and it asked for her race, he put "human".

Discuss.

[gpw11]

Soooo, do you think he was a shitty hippy who didn't believe in the concept of different races or do you think he was just stupid as fuck (yes, I know...both are kind of the same thing)?

[Quemaqua]

Personally?  I'm betting he was subconsciously thinking the other options were Elf, Orc, or Troll.  Proof positive that WoW has destroyed a generation.

[gpw11]

Ahahahaaha.  I'm pretty sure I've fucked a troll....more than once.   

[scottws]

Today I came across an application (you'll remember I work for a local child support office).  When the guy was listing the physical characteristics of his ex and it asked for her race, he put "human".

Is there a possibility he is one of those people that is hypersensitive about race ("Why does it matter what race I am?") rather than just a complete idiot?

[Xessive]

Technically speaking we're not different races. We're one race with multiple ethnicities.

The term "race" refers to a taxonomic rank in biological classification a.k.a. species in zoology. At least that's how it originated. At some point in time, around 1490-1500, the word "razza" (Italian), an adjective which means "of obscure origins" influenced the English language and became used to refer to a group of people related by common descent; more arbitrarily referring to tribe, clan, family, stock, line, or breed.

I would have likely answered the same if I saw a "race" field on a form. I can be rebelious and aggressive when it comes to what I consider asinine fields on official forms such as race (ethnicity), religion, or political stance. My old-fashioned passport still indicates my religion, like it's any of their business or it's supposed to have some bearing on my official or social status in whatever country I'm in.

[scottws]

Technically speaking we're not different races. We're one race with multiple ethnicities.

The term "race" refers to a taxonomic rank in biological classification a.k.a. species in zoology. At least that's how it originated. At some point in time, around 1490-1500, the word "razza" (Italian), an adjective which means "of obscure origins" influenced the English language and became used to refer to a group of people related by common descent; more arbitrarily referring to tribe, clan, family, stock, line, or breed.

I would have likely answered the same if I saw a "race" field on a form. I can be rebelious and aggressive when it comes to what I consider asinine fields on official forms such as race (ethnicity), religion, or political stance. My old-fashioned passport still indicates my religion, like it's any of their business or it's supposed to have some bearing on my official or social status in whatever country I'm in.

Here, they seem to separate race and ethnicity.  Basically the choices to label yourself are: White, Black or African American, American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander, Some Other Race.  But there is also usually a separate ethnicity question asking if you are Hispanic or not.

I guess this makes sense as Cubans are typically white or black while Mexicans are generally a mix between white and Indian (mestizo).  Like "Hispanic" is more of a culture that includes many races.

Jennie doesn't consider herself white though.  She thinks of Hispanic like it is a separate race.

[Quemaqua]

He got it right for the other party, so he definitely knew what the question meant.

And Xessive, you'd mark "human" on a child support form, as though you might potentially have had children with a... house cat?  Goat?  Cactus?

[Cobra951]

I always have trouble with race questions about me.  The prevalent myopic view here seems to be that only North America has a heterogeneous population.  Now website job application forms will ask if you're hispanic or not first, then grey out all other options if you say that you are.  So there's no way to be latin-American and Caucasian at the same time.  Morons.

[sirean_syan]

I'm actually ran into the same problem last week, Cobra. I was filling out paperwork for my work over the summer and the race question gave me the choice of choosing white/Caucasian mixed with African American or Asian with a few other options or just Hispanic/Latino. My mother is white and my father is Mexican, so I fall squarely in non-existent. In the past I've always selected decide to state because I was probably under the impression that selecting race fed some notion of affirmative action (this was mostly back in the days when I was first applying for college). No, I guess just I don't care so much.

[Cobra951]

See, but given my background, your saying that your father is Mexican doesn't tell me the whole story.  Most Americans will assume the look that comes from heavy native influence in the genetics, but there are a good number of Mexicans with strictly European ancestry, mostly Spanish.  The same is true of just about any Latin-American country.  The new world is all heterogeneous.

Here's an example.  That's from a family reunion in '07.  I took the picture.  Just about everyone in that picture is Puerto Rican.  My niece under the umbrella, looking up at my mother on the right, is half Cincinnati German.  My cousin's daughter on the left is half Puerto Rico German.  Her father's family has been there for about 3 generations.  My brother Tony is the big guy with the glasses & mustache behind my mom.  That's a cousin in the pink shirt by my mom.  My brother Carlos is under that explorer hat, holding a beer can.

[Xessive]

He got it right for the other party, so he definitely knew what the question meant.

And Xessive, you'd mark "human" on a child support form, as though you might potentially have had children with a... house cat?  Goat?  Cactus?

Hey, now you're discriminatin' against anthropomorphs! hehe

The idea is that the question is redundant to begin with.

Selecting a specific race can be a convoluted process. In my case I have Egyptian, Lebanese, Albanian, Italian heritage (and probably Armenian and Turkish in there somewhere too). From an anthropological perspective I fall in a subdenomination of Caucasian but I'm not white, I'm just a casual middle-easterner. Most North Americans I encounter perceive me to be Spanish, Italian, Iranian, or Romanian or something along those lines. According to 17th/18th century studies, which seem to be the ones thta had the most influence today, the only three races are Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid. If you're not clearly one of the three then you're in a subcategory belonging to one. However, in Arabic we have a word for my classification but it's something you'd only ever hear or read in an anthropology class, it's not a commonly used term.

Arabs run the gamut regarding ethnic characteristics. We have black people, white people, middle-easterners (my classification), Asian looking fellas, it's a mixed bag. Arabic is a culture rather than a "race" just like Hispanic as Scott mentioned. On most forms I just tick the "Middle-Eastern heritage" item if it's an option. So when Arabs get "racist" it's not about skin colour or anything like that, we get vicious about cultures i.e. "Fackin' Syrians and they're cheap-ass chickpea-based falafel!! Lebanese bean-based falafel can kick Syrian falafel ass any day!!" or "Fackin' Palestinians!! Go get your own country then come talk to me!!" And that kinda stuff. So we're not "racist" by race exactly it's all culture. Hence the "Damn Americans!" and "Welcome Canadians!" social standard. Then again that's everywhere.

Suppose I marry a girl who's half Jamaican half Native American, with a dash of Irish in her heritage (she really exists and if I play my cards right this may become a reality), and we have kids, what category would our kids fall under? Y'know what I mean? It's not always so cut and dry.

I thik we need to reform this whole race business. It only really started because of the imperialists anyway!

[scottws]

Hey, now you're discriminatin' against anthropomorphs! hehe

The idea is that the question is redundant to begin with.

Selecting a specific race can be a convoluted process. In my case I have Egyptian, Lebanese, Albanian, Italian heritage (and probably Armenian and Turkish in there somewhere too). From an anthropological perspective I fall in a subdenomination of Caucasian but I'm not white, I'm just a casual middle-easterner. Most North Americans I encounter perceive me to be Spanish, Italian, Iranian, or Romanian or something along those lines. According to 17th/18th century studies, which seem to be the ones thta had the most influence today, the only three races are Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid. If you're not clearly one of the three then you're in a subcategory belonging to one. However, in Arabic we have a word for my classification but it's something you'd only ever hear or read in an anthropology class, it's not a commonly used term.

Arabs run the gamut regarding ethnic characteristics. We have black people, white people, middle-easterners (my classification), Asian looking fellas, it's a mixed bag. Arabic is a culture rather than a "race" just like Hispanic as Scott mentioned. On most forms I just tick the "Middle-Eastern heritage" item if it's an option. So when Arabs get "racist" it's not about skin colour or anything like that, we get vicious about cultures i.e. "Fackin' Syrians and they're cheap-ass chickpea-based falafel!! Lebanese bean-based falafel can kick Syrian falafel ass any day!!" or "Fackin' Palestinians!! Go get your own country then come talk to me!!" And that kinda stuff. So we're not "racist" by race exactly it's all culture. Hence the "Damn Americans!" and "Welcome Canadians!" social standard. Then again that's everywhere.

Suppose I marry a girl who's half Jamaican half Native American, with a dash of Irish in her heritage (she really exists and if I play my cards right this may become a reality), and we have kids, what category would our kids fall under? Y'know what I mean? It's not always so cut and dry.

I thik we need to reform this whole race business. It only really started because of the imperialists anyway!

I totally understand what you are saying, but at the same time I understand why it exists, at least here in the U.S.  Due to slavery and historically poor treatment of blacks in this country there are many governmental aids that black people get that others do not.  So I can understand that choice, but they still have all those other racial choices.  It should almost be "black" and "non-black".

However, I can understand more choices for the census to figure out how many people in each different category live in this country.  But yeah, it can be hard to quantify if you are sufficiently mutt-like.  For instance when people ask about my heritage, I tell them I'm a mutt with mostly German, American Indian, and French blood.  I guess generally I'm European and white.  But if I had African, German, and French blood, then what?  I guess that would make me mulatto, but that's never a choice.  It's almost like Barack Obama.  Isn't he half-black, half-white?  I don't get why people call him black as he's only half-black.  If you can call him black, you should be able to call him white and it be equally true.

Regarding your references to "racism" and culture, there's a fallacy in your point.  Your are differentiating by country, not by culture.  Canadian and U.S. culture is very similar in an extremely general sense, with the main differences being taste in sports as Canadians are much more apt to be a hockey fan first and foremost and an American being a football, baseball, or basketball fan.  Then again in America you have several different cultures.  Southern culture.  Hip-hop culture.  "Whitebread" culture.  There may even be other cultures I'm not aware of amongst some groups of immigrants.

It's all very complicated.  I guess that is why anthropology is an entire field of study.

[Xessive]

Regarding the "racism" and culture stuff I was only referring to the stereotypes perceived out here, country/culture becomes melded into one big ball, as with all racism it's all about stereotypes and generalization.

The part I'm liking so far is that the world really is getting mixed. Most of us are part-something these days and it's not too far off that everyone will be as well, then we can discriminate against each other about shit that actually matters.

[Cobra951]

Scott, if you're even a quarter black in America, you're considered black.  It's a product of the extreme racism, I guess.  But hispanics also have gotten preferential treatment under affirmative action, for sure in academia.  It's not just blacks.

[ScaryTooth]

The GF was filling out job applications for EVERYWHERE last month. She was desperate for a job. I mean, granted the economy sucks, and jobs are slightly scarce. She kept trying and trying. I helped her tweak her resume a little bit, and I looked at some of her job applications. I told her to stop indicating her race as white, and she started getting phone calls...I really think that had something to do with it.

[Quemaqua]

Oh, absolutely.  Don't even get me started on affirmative action and all that other bullshit.  No really, don't get me started.  I work for the government and I see a lot of shit that makes me want to scream and pull my hair out.  You don't realize what a corrupt system you live in until you start working for them.

I honestly was just making what I thought was a funny post, haha.  I had no thought it would turn into this!  Insightful comments all around, though.  I've long held that we need to make great changes to the way this stuff is handled in the modern era.

[Xessive]

Thanks for the inspiration, Que

[ScaryTooth]

Oh, I see it all the time too. I'm a government/state employee. And it really pisses me off. Especially in a job where what you do can potentially hurt or even kill someone. You have persons A who is a minority who is incompetent, bad at math, and drug dosing, and isn't certified, who is going to be making IV bags for cancer patients and messing them up 20% of the time...Then you have person B who is a white lady who is good at what she does, decent at math, and drug dosing, and is certified and messing up only 2% of the time. When they both applied for the same job at the hospital. Guess who got it?

This actually just happened 3 weeks ago...

[Cobra951]

That's very bad.  The intention is supposed to be that given equally qualified candidates, preference may be given to minorities.  Even that's wrong, but at least it's workable.  Affirmative action at the expense of competence is bad not only in general, but even for the minorities it tries to prop up.  If your life is at stake, would you rather go to a black doctor you don't know, or a white doctor you don't know?  You do know the white one worked his ass off and was consistently near the top of his class.  The black one?  You just don't know.