Topic: Paid mods now in Steam Workshop

[idolminds]

Eeehhhhhhh.....

Steam says mods can be free, paid, or pay what you want (though it appears pay what you want has a minimum price that does not include free). On one hand I guess it is nice to be able to "repay" a modder for making a cool mod you enjoy. But paid mods don't sit right with me.

And I mean, the first game to support this is Skyrim. If I paid $1 for every mod I've installed in Skyrim I'd have spent more than the game itself. One of the mods I have is even one of their new paid ones, Wet and Cold.

Wet and Cold v2.0+ has been largely remade to reduce its performance impact. Along with a new framework, there are new items that can be found worn on NPCs. Future plans include refining the current features/assets and possibly creating new ones based on feedback.

So I'd have to pay to get the newest version that has improved performance. Thats just shitty.

Looks like this is only allowed because Steam gets to siphon off some of the money and will split it with the developers. Oh and what a split it is!


Yeah. Developers have to opt-in to the program to allow mods for their games to be sold. I hope this doesn't become a thing.

[idolminds]

Gamasutra has some more info

Update: A Valve representative responded to Gamasutra's request for clarification on revenue splits by highlighting the Skyrim Steam Workshop page, which notes that all revenue from sales of Skyrim Steam Workshop content will be split between Valve, Bethesda and the content creator(s).

People who sell Skyrim content on the Workshop get a 25 percent cut of the revenue, but it seems that the amount a content creator receive is ultimately up to a game's publisher or developer. New supplemental terms for the Steam Workshop legal agreement state that "the percentage of Adjusted Gross Revenue that [content creators] are entitled to receive will be determined by the developer/publisher of the Application" for which they've created content.

Sounds like the 25% cut is not a strict thing and is more Bethesda being greedy fuckers.

[PyroMenace]

Hahahaha

[Xessive]

Paid mod removed in a matter of hours.
http://www.pcgamer.com/paid-for-skyrim-mod-removed-in-a-matter-of-hours/

[Cobra951]

OK, I'll forgo the obvious opportunity to bash Steam over all this, and just ask a question.  Why does anyone need to pay for mods when they're freely available elsewhere?  Is Steam now going to lock out previously free content from games they distribute?

You know another name for paid mods?  DLC.  I know, I know.  I said I wasn't going to.

[idolminds]

OK, I'll forgo the obvious opportunity to bash Steam over all this, and just ask a question.  Why does anyone need to pay for mods when they're freely available elsewhere?  Is Steam now going to lock out previously free content from games they distribute?

No, but there have already been previously free Skyrim mods pulled from Nexus and are now being sold in Workshop. Or like Wet and Cold the newest version being only on Workshop with a fee.

But this is Skyrim and you're right, lots of free mods out there. For now, anyway. What gets scarier is what happens when Fallout 4 or the next Elder Scrolls game releases with this from day 1. Have people asking for money for their mod right away. What does the free modding scene look like then? Also Skyrim modding community seems to share a lot of information among themselves (how many mods require another mod to work, for example?). How does that change when someone thinks their mod is worth money?

I think Skyrim was just a particularly bad choice of game to launch this with. Modding is soooo different compared to other games in how you have multiple mods all running at once in a single world. Unreal Tournament 4 has a store where people can sell their creations. But its like "Hey, buy this map!" or "Buy this player model!". It's a bit more defined and doesn't have dependencies and likely won't break as the game updates. It also helps that UT4 itself is free.

[Cobra951]

I can see this degenerating into an enforced paywall over time.  It's a shame.

Here is one take I read on it.  The comments from the modder "FilthyCasual" seem worthy of note (despite the wonky name).

“First, Valve, you have now made “modder” a dirty word here on the steam forums almost overnight. Thanks a bunch. You have now divided PC consumers and modders, when we used to be a pretty tight bunch.

Second, I now see mods going up that are little tiny swords and whatnot going up for sale. Bundles already that cost more than the game itself. In other words, I am concerned about a complete influx of mods that are completely useless and tiny and unsupported and updated, just because of money-grabbers who want a piece of the pie.

Third, this leads to microtransaction hell. Hell for consumers, and a deluge of stuff to compete against for us modders. This isn’t healthy competition. It is gonna be cutthroat. Thanks again for taking the fun out of it.

Fourth, there will be inevitable stealing of other’s people’s content and then selling it as their own.

I'll leave the rest oh his quote behind.

[gpw11]

There's a huge backlash from this right now.   Modders taking mods off of Nexus so they can charge for them, OR because they're scared someone else will upload them to Steam and charge for them has spurred a bit of gamer outrage.   Good.

[MysterD]

Of course this was going to get PC gamer outrage!

The one thing PC gamers have always had over consoles is free-mods. Mods can really expand the lifespan of a game-title. Mods have often fixed broken things, added new content (assets, maps, game areas, new NPC's, etc).

Could we imagine how not-so-well Dark Souls 1 PC would've sold, if Durante's DSFix was a $-Mod? Would everybody buy that $-Mod just to run DS1 PC above 720p? How much would Durante have charged for it? Would Dark Souls 2 PC even got a PC version or a proper PC port by From Software, if it wasn't for what happened w/ DSFix being free?

I could imagine how us PC gamers would feel, if any of these things did actually cost money: DSFix; DPFix (for Deadly Premonition PC); any of Wesp's unofficial patches/mods for Vampire Bloodlines; any of DrogBlackTooth's unofficial patches for Arcanum; any unofficial texture mods for System Shock 2; any unofficial texture mods for Thief 1+2; etc etc. Just think about all of that, for a moment - let that sink in.

How would other old-school MP-focused games have turned out, if mods weren't free and they came out in this new $-Mod era? Remember when CTF modes (before every dev put it in their game) and Freeze Tags modes were really free-mods? What about new maps, which in the old-school SDK era (before official pay-DLC came out) were what helped games like Q2, Q3, UT, and RTCW keep their life-span alive for a long time frame? That's right - these games wouldn't have lasted as long as they did, if it wasn't for SDK's and free-mods. Putting mods behind $-wall, that's obviously going to make less people use your mod.

Look at games like Titanfall PC, where you feel like after 3 hours of play, there's not much more official content to really get. How crummy would it be if a game like that lacks official content and the mod-content you might want is behind a $-wall b/c mods are paid for. Who the heck is going to spend even more $ just to get more 3rd party mods and content?

It's already a pain-in-the-ass trying to keep up w/ official content from the base-game dev's - i.e. $-DLC's + Season Passes. It's even worse when games have copious amounts of pointless DLC - and for some reason, you might want it all. This is especially true if you're trying to Collect Everything for a certain game...even more so true, if they don't later release a Complete Edition with everything! If $-mods come out, we'll NEVER be able to get a Complete Edition for a game we love for free.

Sure, it'd be really nice for deserving modders to have their hard work and effort reward with $$ - especially if they made their own assets for it. But, the problems of modders stealing others' content and selling it as their own is also going to be a problem, too. And well, the floodgates are already open. If everybody wants to charge for their mod, then how long will a game's lifespan even last? How many companies will make a game, port it very basic-style to the PC (i.e. see Dark Souls 1 w/ lack of PC features and locked in 720p), and then let modders charge for the UI improvements and other things (i.e. see DSFix, if Durante decided to charge for it)?

Another thing - what about if the original dev updates their game and it actually breaks a mod you paid for? So, we already known Steam ain't too friendly for allowing gamers to run older-versions of game - especially if an update is forced, even if you select the option to not have a game updated. Well, until modder fixes your mod - you're screwed. And with the way this is, this is the Wild Wild West right now w/ mods - so, it's not like the base-game dev's or the publisher have control and be very selective over what mods they will allow; or even they can go ahead and make sure certain mods they selected work w/ their particular game.

[MysterD]

Looks like SkyUI (i.e. the best UI for Skyrim) has joined the $-Mod club:
https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33quz6/skyui_pretty_much_one_of_the_most_essential_mods/

Nexus responds to them also getting a cut of mod-sales from SteamWorkshop:
http://www.nexusmods.com/games/news/12459/?

[MysterD]

Reddit -> Gabe Newell shows up on Reddit to discuss paid mods.
IGN -> For the $-Mods, Valve is thinking of allowing a "Pay What You Want" Option for those modders that want to utilize such a donation option.

[MysterD]

Youtube -> TotalBiscuit's thoughts on $-Mods on Steam.
RockPaperShotgun -> Looking at the cases For and Against $-Mods on Steam.

[idolminds]

I am not entirely opposed to mod makers being able to make money off their work if they choose. I thin Valve/Bethesda just haven't done the legwork in answering questions that really need to be answered before people would be on board with this. Because honestly, this:

Q. What happens if a mod I bought breaks?
A. Sometimes one mod may modify the same files as another mod, or a particular combination of mods may cause unexpected outcomes. If you find that mod has broken or is behaving unexpectedly, it is best to post politely on the Workshop item's page and let the mod author know the details of what you are seeing.

is bullshit. Especially if the mod breaks due to an update to the game by the original developers. Mods were just free 3rd party content before, people understood that they could break and had to just wait on a mod author to update. But now these are paying customers and Bethesda is getting the largest cut of the sale of this content. They MUST take on some responsibility for it.

[Xessive]

The issue Valve and publishers seem to be ignoring is liability. When you pay for something the payee has to take responsibility for delivering a functional product/service.

Anyway, basically what Valve did here is bring the Team Fortress 2 hats to other games. It was retarded then and people still paid money for hats. WTF.

[MysterD]

I am not entirely opposed to mod makers being able to make money off their work if they choose. I thin Valve/Bethesda just haven't done the legwork in answering questions that really need to be answered before people would be on board with this. Because honestly, this:

is bullshit. Especially if the mod breaks due to an update to the game by the original developers. Mods were just free 3rd party content before, people understood that they could break and had to just wait on a mod author to update. But now these are paying customers and Bethesda is getting the largest cut of the sale of this content. They MUST take on some responsibility for it.

The other problem is - well...Steam forces updates, if there are incoming updates still happening. You can disable updates, but if it overrides that and is forced + you're connected to the Net, you're screwed. If it wasn't forced, then said gamer could run old-version of the game + said gamer can run un-updated mod; all's still well, somewhat. But, honestly - Steam isn't really friendly for running old-versions of games; usually, ofifcial-game eventually have forced-updates.

So, if $-modder abandons ship - you're screwed. Money out the window. Enjoy your rental.
Well...unless $-modder updates it to work w/ new version, of course.

If the mod was free and it won't work - then, well....it just won't work. Stinks, but it's no money out of your pocket.

[idolminds]

Yeah I made that point elsewhere as well. It would be one thing if you could just say "Well, just run an older version of the game until your mods update" but that isn't possible with Steam. Well, unless you went into offline mode before the update hit and then never ever take it back online. Like that'd be an option.

[Cobra951]

The issue Valve and publishers seem to be ignoring is liability. When you pay for something the payee has to take responsibility for delivering a functional product/service.

This occurred to me earlier.  The biggest sticking point in what I'm seeing is paying for content designed as freebies.  Serious bugs or sudden loss of support are understandable in amateur, free content, and the user can always choose to uninstall without loss.  Paying imposes an implied warranty of merchantability, one which cannot always be waved away with lawyer speak.  Even if the anticonsumer "as is" bullshit gets slapped on every paid mod, there will be legal quagmires, class-action suits, and whatnot.  A rough patch ahead seems inevitable, unless Valve backs off.

[MysterD]

Yeah I made that point elsewhere as well. It would be one thing if you could just say "Well, just run an older version of the game until your mods update" but that isn't possible with Steam. Well, unless you went into offline mode before the update hit and then never ever take it back online. Like that'd be an option.

The only other way is if you actually have an old-version of the game backed-up somewhere else as back-up (just in case), it actually doesn't have CEG, doesn't have any other DRM-wrapped about it, and actually works when placed outside of the Steam-folder somewhere else to run the game from there.

Some Steam-versions of games work like that - i.e. Wizardry 8 Steam-version works when placed in C:\Wiz8.

[idolminds]

Why we’re trying paid Skyrim mods on Steam. Bethesda has it's say.

[W7RE]

We're going to remove the payment feature from the Skyrim workshop. For anyone who spent money on a mod, we'll be refunding you the complete amount. We talked to the team at Bethesda and they agree.

http://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218

[idolminds]

Was just coming here to post that. Good. It needs a lot more worked out before they can offer it again.

[PyroMenace]

That response felt reeaaally condescending towards the end.

[MysterD]

Polygon -> Skyrim $-modders were getting death threats + defending why their work should be paid.

It's one thing to protest + complain peacefully (and it worked!), but death threats are going way too damn far...

[Cobra951]

No more paid mods on the Skyrim workshop.

Edit:  Looks likeI missed W7RE's post.  Ignore me.

[K-man]

Polygon -> Skyrim $-modders were getting death threats + defending why their work should be paid.

It's one thing to protest + complain peacefully (and it worked!), but death threats are going way too damn far...

Yeah, this bullshit really, really needs to stop.

[gpw11]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, gamers are the fucking worst mainstream "subculture" in society.  Take a hobby and treat it like a way of life, then get absolutely blind with rage and caught up in a mod mentality feedback loop anytime there's the slightest bit of controversy.

[MysterD]

PC Gamer -> Id Software was looking to pay modders in 1995, but the idea was dropped.

Youtube -> Total Biscuit has a 1 hr 52 min discussion about Paid Mods w/ "Dark0ne" the owner and admin of NexusMods + Nick McCaskey of SMIM Mod.