Topic: Vagrant Story kicks my ass.

[Quemaqua]

In more than one way.  I've mentioned on a number of occasions that I really think the game is tops, and I think it was a huge achievement in design, story, presentation, art design, music, and gameplay.  However, I never finished it.  In fact, I never even finished a quarter of it.  Why?

I got the game on my PSP, per the PSP thread that's floating around.  Awesome, I thought!  I can finally go back and play it again!  I've been wanting to, and that's a great excuse.  So I start it up, get all excited, and start playing and enjoying myself, until I run into exactly the same problem that I ran into the first time I played -- I completely suck and I don't know why.  I actually just got to exactly the same point in the game where I quit on my first try, and I'm feeling the same pains.  So I'm here hoping that somebody can maybe tell me what it is that I'm not getting, because it's obviously something.

I understand how weapons and armor adapt to different bad guys, but how are you supposed to deal with this?  I mean, I've been switching my weapons out sometimes.  I've got a sword for beasts, a dagger for the undead, and a big spear for humans, but even with a 6 on my sword for dragons there's this dragon boss in the mines that I more or less couldn't damage.  I'm about 6 and a half hours in now.  I made sure to cast the STR-DOWN spell on him and the EQUIP-UP on myself, and I made sure to get the fireproof defensive chain thing so that his fire breath thing didn't kill me in a couple hits, but I had no real way of damaging him.  The fight was like a half fucking hour because I did almost no damage at all.  I tried letting my risk get high and then using spells, I tried using items to keep my risk low... nothing worked.  He was just always impossible to damage.  I'd do like 1 damage per hit, maybe a little more if I got a chain going.  And all his body parts always said 0/whatever% no matter what I did.  And it's starting to get like this with a lot of other bosses.  Do you just really need to have a sword with like a 15/20+ rating for the enemy type, or what?  The enemies don't seem abundant enough to really get super high ratings consistently, and it seems like you'd need a lot of patience to go grinding away just to get a few more numbers on the weapon you wanted to use.  And if you had to do that with armor too?  Fuck, there's not enough inventory to have different weapons and armor for every different enemy type, not to mention it's already annoying as hell to have to access the menu every 10 seconds to switch my weapons out!  And I really like how you can craft weapons and combine stuff, but that tends to fuck with the numbers when you make a new weapon and it doesn't have a great rating for whatever enemy type.

Anybody have any tips?  I'd really like to get over the hump and actually enjoy this game, but I'm feeling like a dolt when it comes to the gameplay.  There's just something that isn't meshing with me, and I need to find out what.

[TheOtherBelmont]

Damn, I wish I could help but I haven't played that game since it first came out, took me awhile to beat it too.  I remember that game having a high learning curve and difficulty though.  Maybe look at an FAQ and see if there's an element of gameplay you're missing out on.

[Quemaqua]

I think it just plain wants me to grind enemies more to increase the weapon affinities.  That's all I can guess.  I mean, if I have a low rating on beast with a powerful weapon, it takes five hits to kill a fucking bat.  If I have a high rating for human with the same weapon, it only takes a couple of good swings.  At this point it's the only thing I can guess.

[gpw11]

Remember when I said Castlevania: SotN is the best game ever a few days ago?  I totally lied, it's Vagrant Story.  I've played through the game a few times, and there's definitely a trick to it.  You shouldn't really need to grind at all to get through the main game, it kind of plays out perfectly if you know what you're doing. 

The actual 'class' affinity isn't that huge of a deal, and in reality you only need to really use three weapons because of the way the system works.  Raising one class will drop another class, so there is a combination of something like you have one weapon you use for human + Beast, one for Evil + Dragon, and one for Undead + Phantom.  I THINK those are the combinations you can have on one weapon without lowering each other, but I'm not sure.  Anyways, that's not really the big deal....especially with bosses.  The big deal is the elemental affinity and the weapon type weakness.  Specifically the elemental affinity. 

I take it you're on the fire dragon.  Scan it if you have that spell (I think you should).  You also probably have a spell to increase the water affinity of your weapon....which is something you're going to want to do for this fight.  If you don't have it, don't worry about going  back to look for it, I don't think it's something you can miss.  The elemental affinity and weapon type are the most important aspects, and you can find those weaknesses by analyzing the creature you're fighting.  Just remember that attacking a fire based creature increases your weapons water affinity, but being attacked by it increases your armor affinity.

The part that may be a bitch is if your weapon is the wrong type for the boss.  If a dragon is weak against piercing weapons and you're using  a blunt or slashing weapon it's going to be an issue.  On most bosses, this is more important than the actual class affinity.  Analyze the dragon, but I'm pretty sure they're weak against piercing weapons (I remember using a lot of pole arms on them).  If that's the case use whatever piercing weapon you have on you regardless of it's class affinity.  See how much damage that does. 


That said, a lot of bosses have a point weaker than the others.  Check the tail, the neck, and the head.  Beyond that, I think I remember that if you get in very close to the dragons they can't use their breath attacks (maybe try getting under the neck, close to the body so you're sort of behind or under the head), leaving them with physical attacks....which you can reflect back at them with one of your defensive chains.

I never really worried about the attributes of armor...I'd just use magic to boost the elemental defense if needed. 

So, for this particular boss:

-Equip pole arm or spear.
-Put gem on it to boost class affinity if you have it (dragon stone or dragonite I believe)
-Cast elemental weapon boosting spell boss' weakness if you have it (probably water).
-Get in close
-reflect damage
-CHAIN ATTACK whatever weak point he has (head, neck, or tail)
-Boost equipment if you can't cast spell boosting your weapon's water element (if you cast both the later cancels the former)

That probably should do it.  The whole game requires a lot of equipment management...which is very daunting at first, but once you get the hang of it you realize it's a lot easier than it seems.  There's an easy way to do everything and the trick is to find it.

I may load an old save if I can find one and figure out what weapon class and type affinity combos are the best.  Element isn't a huge deal since you can alter it with magic later on.

[Quemaqua]

Well this is all very helpful.  Thanks dude.  I think my problem was I wasn't focusing on anything much other than the class affinity, and I didn't even think about whether or not different things took damage from different kinds of weapons.  I have no idea why that didn't enter my mind... I guess because it's several pages down on the list from the class affinity stuff.  Also, my analyze spell has failed every damned time I try to use it, so thus far I haven't been able to analyze anything.  Whoops.

But yeah, thanks again.  I did manage to beat the dragon, it just took me a billion fucking years whittling away at him.  I'm now at the guy that pissed me off to the point of quitting the first time I played -- some crazy fire phantom guy just after the dragon.  I will use my newfound information to pound his ass into the ground.  I'm not sure why it's taken so much effort me to adjust to the game's systems, but for some reason it just isn't quite coming naturally.  Certain aspects are, I guess I was just overlooking some stuff in an effort to better understand the things I was more focused on.  Hopefully now I can get on with it and enjoy it more properly.

Then somehow find the time to finish FFXII...

[gpw11]

I'm pretty sure the fire dragon is where I finally got the system the first time I played.  I ran into the same problem and started looking at other things. 

And yeah....those phantoms are a bitch.  If you have any more questions, don't be afraid to ask.  It's definitely a game worth playing all the way through.

Edit:  I also know for a fact that you should have the water element fusion spell for this fight, but can't remember if it's in a chest around there or if you got it from a boss.  It makes a huge difference.

[Quemaqua]

Looking at a FAQ, I realize that I do have it and just forgot that it was in my inventory.  I should also have a water gem that I completely forgot about, so I'll be sticking that in something too.  How I forgot this I have no idea, but I'm blaming lack of sleep.

[gpw11]

Yeah, that should make a huge difference.  Anyways, I broke out my copy and started playing it again, from looking at my save I think the combination for class affinity on your weapons that I gave you before was correct (human/beast, ect).

[TheOtherBelmont]

I wouldn't mind playing this game again, but this was another one of my PS1 games that was stolen.  I think I still have the save file on my memory card though.

[gpw11]

...epsxe is great.

[Quemaqua]

Okay, so I beat the elemental dude with relative ease after equipping myself properly, and that was great.  Then I ran into this goblin boss and he kicked my ass because I wasn't paying a lot of attention (got distracted by other things happening outside my PSP, heh).  I tried him again and was noticing that things weren't going well because I appeared to be using the wrong weapon type.  After trying several, nothing was really working.  I tried the analyze spell right off, but for some reason it appears that I have no idea how to properly use it?  After casting it, nothing happens.  If I try to attack the creature again, there isn't any new info.  If I look in the encyclopedia, there is no entry for said monster unless I've already beaten one, and it includes no clues as to elemental weaknesses, etc.  So what the hell?  Where do you get the information from that spell?  Eventually I tried using a fire gem in one weapon and managed to do pretty decent damage, so took him down in a fair fight that was challenging but not too much so.  It just would have been a lot easier had I been able to figure out his weaknesses with the spell that's supposed to allow me to do so.  Apparently I'm just stupid and am missing something obvious.

Anyway... I seem to be faring much better in general, now, so I guess you managed to beat whatever it was I was missing into my stupid head for the other stuff.  Now I just have to figure out some good combinations for armor, as my attempts at combining thus far usually don't offer much benefit.  I thought I read somewhere that doing a piece of armor of one material with the same piece made of a greater material will equal one with an even greater material?  I've made several cool blades and a few shields, but armor seems to be a sore spot.

[gpw11]

Sorry, forgot about this thread.  The analyze spell is kind of weird.  If you cast it and it doesn't tell you it missed you have to open the menu, go into the status part and hit one of the R or L buttons to switch from your status to that of whatever you just cast it on.  You can then go through the information by (I think) hitting the other R or L button.  You should be able to figure out what weapon and magic to use from that.

As for the armor combining, I'm actually not too sure of the details for it.  I never got all that into it.  I mainly just used the weapons I found and changed the blades and grips around.  It's a huge part of the game, but not something I ever really got all that into but since I'm playing again I probably will.  Key:  don't forget to repair all your equipment every time you hit a shop.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah?  I haven't repaired anything yet.  I've been using the Imbue thing and... the other one, I forget the name.  They add DP and PP to your weapons.  I use those quite a lot.

[gpw11]

That should do it then, but if you're at a workshop, you might as well spend the five or so seconds to do it. 

I still can't believe we never got a sequel.

[Quemaqua]

It does seem pretty insane.  At least FFXII calls back some memories of it, though not exactly in the same way.  Still, it reminded me of VS in some ways, so that was a pleasant surprise.

[Quemaqua]

Hooray for old thread resurrection.

Firstly, I'd like to point out the ninth part of the GameTrailers Final Fantasy Restrospective, which deals with my last post in this thread.  It talks about how Vagrant Story does, apparently, take place in part of Ivalice, the world made famous by FFXII and Final Fantasy Tactics.  That's pretty cool since it's the same creative team and has such similar art.  I always felt they were spiritually linked, but it's nice to finally know that yes, they are part of the same whole, even if we don't know exactly how.

That brings us to other news - Tactics is being released again in North America on the PSP as Final Fantasy Tactics: The War of the Lions, which will have some extra junk, cool animated scenes with voice acting, and some other crap like a cameo by Balthier from FFXII.

Aaand... I'm trying to go through Vagrant Story again.  I sort of failed last time.  I got way further than I had before, but I still felt like things just weren't clicking perfectly and got frustrated.  But I pulled out the big guns this time - I ordered the strategy guide from someone.  I've heard it's a fantastic guide, so I'm hoping it'll clear up the remaining mysteries the game still holds for me.  I've played tons of RPGs so I'm not quite sure what it is about this one that seems to confuse me so much, but I'm going to beat it, damn it, or die trying!

[Xessive]

I really hope they'll make a sequel to (or a remake of) Vagrant Story with updated graphics. The game is a great platform for 'cinematic' gameplay!

[gpw11]

If I remember correctly the only way you can tell it takes place in Ivalice during the game is because the author of the quote that appears on the screen in the start of the game is a character in FFT.  I think.

That said, I'm ashamed you didn't get through it last time.  You are a failure unfit to call yourself a man.

But yeah, it's really a game where you have to know how all the systems work or you're fucked.  You pick up little shit along the way....the actual enemy type affinity of each weapon doesn't matter as much as the actual type/stat of weapon (blunt/piercing/slashing/metalic composition).  How many weapons you need to carry to ensure that you have one that's ideal for any monster you cross, and how to make those weapons are just some of the things you end up having to think about. 

Honestly, I think it may be one of the best rpgs ever.  Complex storyline, great art, and one of the deepest combat/equipment systems I've come across in a videogame.

[Quemaqua]

Absolutely.  That's why I keep going back and trying to figure out what it is I'm not getting.  I always start out strong... like this time I'm kicking all kinds of ass.  But then somewhere around those mines or whatever with the goblins and the fire demon dude it just slowly starts to go south for me.  I felt like I figured out the weapon system pretty well, so I think maybe I'm just not giving enough attention to how well I use the chain abilities.  Or something.  I mean, there are so many little systems... the risk system, the affinities, the weapon system, the armor and weapon combining (which thus far has yielded for me both jack and shit on every try), and then after all that you have to actually put it into practice by using the right spells and abilities at the right times, actually getting your button presses timed properly so you can chain your attacks and defensive maneuvers, and then you have to manage your risk as well.  I get everything individually, but there must be some weak link I'm not seeing that's causing my troubles.  I'm thinking I need to swap out my chain abilities more frequently to fit the situation.  I do fairly often, but maybe not quite often enough.

[gpw11]

Oh good god man, do NOT try to get into weapon or armour combining at this point.  That's strictly an end game or consecutive playthrough thing.  When you get a bit more comfortable with the game you should be breaking down weapons to their parts and combining blades with different grips and the like in order to take advantage of different gem slots, but leave it at that. 

Risk is by far the most important aspect of combat in the game.  Always try to keep your risk as low as possible.  Honestly, a lot of the offensive spells are pretty much worthless - it all comes down to the healing spells, buffs, and whatever you call spells that act as negative buffs on enemies.  And that analyze spell - that is the most usefull thing in the game. Did you figure out how to see the enemies stats after using it?  I think I remember you having a problem with that at first (I certainly did). 

Chain abilities are also pretty big, but your defensive abilities are more key.  Always have the one equiped that enables you to cut damage in half if you get the timed button press, and the one that reflects damage.  Swap the third one out for whatever elemental boss character or tough enemy you are fighting.  As for the actual chain attacks, I'm pretty sure I almost always used the same three - which I totally can't remember now.  I believe I had it set up so that even if I missed or something I could still inflict damage at the cost of risk.  I'll look at a list of them and figure it out.

By far the biggest flaw in the game is the lack of an ability to bring up certain menus or swap weapons with one button.  Seriously, the fact that you can't do that is just fucked in this game.

[Quemaqua]

Okay, so I won't bother with combining at this point.  That's one less thing to think about.

I've definitely realized that defensive abilities are key.  I'm working very hard to make sure I have relevant defenses happening, though my biggest problem seems to be magic damage because I can never fucking figure out when to press the button to defend.  That's getting very frustrating.  Some of the spells don't seem to have a logical climax in which to hit the key, whereas I almost never miss a melee attack.  But even those stupid phantoms in the opening area always end up beating me down with spells because I just can't seem to get the magic absorb or reflect to happen.  In that one room where the door locks and you're trapped with one that likes to appear in the upper areas where it's harder to jump and get to him, I always end up taking a ton of damage.  That drives me a little nuts.

Anyway, I feel more confident in this run already, and I've already built several cool new weapons that seem better than what I had last time, and by the time I start running into trouble I'll have the guide to hopefully help me figure out where my weaknesses are and then I can get past that and just start playing for real.  In theory.

[gpw11]

I believe I remember that exact phantom.  You have it set up so you get the exclamation mark when you need to hit the button right?  I know it's still tough with magic, but you eventually get the hang of it. 

But talking about this phantom reminds me, you're going to need to set up a weapon to specifically tackle ghosts and something else.  Actually, I can't remember the class you want to double up ghosts with, but I can find out for you.  Anyways, I'm fairly certain they are weak against silver, but most of the silver weapons you find early on are either tiny daggers or staves.  This is a bit of a bitch because the way they teleport neccesitates a long range option.  Crossbow.  You won't be able to get one that's silver for a while and you won't do as much damage, but that's where the chains come in.

You have me wanting to play this again, but I don't know if it will work out on my constatly restarting pc.

Unless...I  can get it going on my laptop.  Hmmmm.

[Quemaqua]

Heh, I'm playing on my PSP.  It's all... tiny.

You know, I can't even remember finding silver weapons.  At least definitely none in the opening area (wine cellar/catacombs).  And yeah, I have the exclamation mark for timing, but it's still like half impossible with most spells.  And I haven't really used ranged stuff much.  I manage with the phantoms most of the time, just using a sword.  It's only bad in that one room where you can't get to the fucker before he gets a spell off.  Otherwise I'm fine with them.

Damn it... talking about this is making me want to play right now, but I'm gonna' go play some Quake 2 with the guys.  Must play...

[gpw11]

Yeah, silver weapons must not come into until later.  I do seem to remember that the audio cue might help for spells, but it's hard to say.

I know exactly the room you're talking about though.  I"m fairly certain it's been a bitch a couple of the times I played through the start of the game.  I specifically remember the first. 

[Quemaqua]

Finally figured out analyze.

From a guide:

This is pain to understand at first so let me explain.
           If you go into the main menu and the status you will see the status
           of Ashley.  Press L1 or R1 to see the other occupants of the room. 
           You will see how most of there stats are covered with ?? or .  To
           fill in these blanks cast Analyze.  Once cast it will let you see
           things like what armour it's wearing, what weapons it's using, it's
           HP and MP and many other helpful things such as elemental affinity.
           If you're thinking "That is so obvious, how didn't I find that out?"
           don't worry I didn't know how to work this spell until I had around
           50% of the map revealed on my first play. Stupid me...

I had no idea you could see enemies from there.  Like none at all.

[gpw11]

The game just got a whole lot easier for you then. 

[Quemaqua]

Apparently not.  I just went against the Wyvern in the abandoned mines, and I can't figure out how to damage him like... at all.  The analyze says he's weak against blunt, but it does like zip damage with the blunt weapon I have, and nothing else does much either (except a little bit of edged on his tail).  But I've beaten him before... what the hell?

This is the kind of shit I'm talking about.  I literally just sat there at that fight for like a half hour.  Staying a live is cake as long as he doesn't breathe fire on you, but nothing I do does any damage.  I could just sit there reflecting his attacks all day like I did with the golem, but I seem to miss the counter for that a lot.

 ... I wonder when my guide gets here.

EDIT - Well, basically all GameFAQs tells me is to either do what I was doing, or a couple alternate strategies, all of which I tried that did absolutely nothing.  Even with my risk at zero none of my weapons hit for shit.  I wonder if they're all out of DP or something?  I generally have the two skills that add PP and DP when you use them, and I use those on normal enemies almost constantly, so I don't see how that's possible.  I guess I just need to keep reflecting his attacks and going for the tail.  But boy, it's sure taking a fucking while.  I don't remember it being nearly this bad before.

[gpw11]

That's strange.  I remember the tail being good.  I also have a feeling that when it says blunt is high it means it's blunt defense is high or something like that.   For some reason I always remember using piercing (spears and stuff) on dragon enemies. 

Also, what gems do you have?  Any that would help out against dragons?

[Quemaqua]

I do, in fact, have one.  It just doesn't seem to help much.  The only thing I can figure is maybe my DP is low or something.  I made a really super-badass edged weapon, and I know I'm reading the weaknesses correctly as the tail is the only part of the thing I can seem to damage at all... it just seems like peanuts compared to what a weak spot should be.  This thing is basically just invulnerable to everything else, though, so I guess it's really what the weak point is supposed to be.  I think what was throwing me is I just kept looking for something better as I don't remember him being all that troublesome before.  This run has been a lot more successful than my past ones, actually.  Nothing until now has given me much pause (with exception of that damned phantom we talked about, who I went back in to beat again today at work just for fun since I finally got some new abilities to render his attacks ineffective... and somehow I figured out when to block the aqua spell of his).

[gpw11]

Yeah, some of those enemies you really have to chain to death.  Your original damage miht be miniscule, but if you chain as much as you can you'll keep adding more (bit by tiny bit).  The downside is that it costs risk, but I guess it has to be done.

[Quemaqua]

I sort of suck at chaining, though.  My biggest so far is 9, and I don't think I ever did any better than that on previous tries, either.

Also, I'm finding weird little things that throw me.  I just slaughtered like 10 guards as though they were nothing at all, but amidst those 10 were 2 that for some reason seemed to have no apparent weakness.  The others were all weak to my custom iron rapier blade (piercing), but I didn't cast analyze on them or anything.  Just went in and started swinging.  But those other 2 didn't seem to have any weaknesses, so I analyzed them and found that they had very little... but they had maybe -5 in one thing.  Yet for some reason, when using the corresponding weapon, I still got a prediction of 0dam/##%, even if I had casted prosasia.  So yeah, there are still some things I don't get, but on the whole it's going pretty well now.  I think I've got most of it down.

[gpw11]

I've never gotten chains up to huge ammounts, but you can eventually do damage with even the small ones.  Sorry, I still have to look at the list of available chains in order to help you out, I'll try to do that tonight.  I'll also see if I can get this going on the laptop.  It'll probably be fun if we both go through and it's hard to think back and explain stuff about this game because there's just so much.

[Quemaqua]

It's really amazing that a game 7 years old with very dated-looking technology can not only be as well directed as this game is, but as perfectly localized and as ridiculously gorgeous.  This has to be one of the best looking games I've ever played, even now.  It just does what it does exactly the way it should.

Anyway, I think I've finally gotten over the hump now.  I got my ass kicked a few times today, but I also realized very quickly why that was and rectified it, and took out another couple of bosses without much issue.  It seems to be settling in at long last, and I'm finally getting to see more of the story, which (to my disbelief) remains as compelling as the opening.  I also sat at the menu long enough to re-watch the *actual* opening, which I'd forgotten about (was eating something at the time), and I remember talking to this one guy who loved the game and never realized that scene was in there.  Never quite understood why they did it that way, as that scene is awesome.

[gpw11]

Do you mean the run through the castle or manor or whatever it is?

[Quemaqua]

No, the pre-opening.  If you leave it at the menu and just watch.  Eventually you get to see Riot's briefing with the VKP snobs, and it's all sinister and dark and stuff.

[gpw11]

....

I don't know if I've ever seen that.




DAmn, well....looks like it's time to try ePSXe on here for sure.

[Quemaqua]

Seriously?  Well, that just brings me back to wondering why they chose to do it that way, because you aren't the first to say that.

But yeah, watch it.  It's cool.

[gpw11]

Ok, I watched it.  I take that back, I have seen it - but probably when I first played the game in 2000 or so.  Still, thanks for pointing that out because it really does add quite a bit to the begining of the game and I totally forgot about it.

[Quemaqua]

I'm about ready to throw my PSP through a wall right now.  I finally get over the hump and start really getting through the game, I'm having a great time, making the right decisions, all is right with the world... and the game crashes.  After this one boss fight, it just... dies.  Screen fades to black, next scene wants to load, hangs with one note playing in the balance and then just shuts the PSP down.

Okay, I try to re-rip the .ISO using a newer version of popstation, but that's no good because it has a different savegame ID and copying over the save files causes the game to not load.  Fuck.  I copy over just the memory card files, but the game won't recognize them (probably due to the IDs not matching up).  I try re-ripping with the old (incorrect, coincidentally) ID and then it works with the old save... but crashes in the same spot.  So I don't know what the fucking problem is.  All reports indicate that VS is supposed to work fine, and there's one guy who logged more than 100 hours into it on his PSP.  What the fuck gives?  I downloaded another version which I'll try, and I could always try to rip my own CD to see if the ISO is bad or something, but in either case I can't use the fucking savegame I've been using, and there's no way in bleeding hell I feel like starting over again for the billionth time.

EDIT - Well, this may not really help me if it ends up happening again (god forbid during actual gameplay), but I was able to just skip the cutscene and watch the 2nd half of it on YouTube.  So it's all good, really.  I just hope it doesn't try to pull this shit again.  Nothing else has happened in 11 and a half hours, so I'm hoping it won't again.

EDIT x2 - I'd just like to add that this game owns my life completely now and I am helpless against it.  If it told me to go jump off a cliff, I think I would have to.  I am in awe.

[gpw11]

It is easily the game that justifies the existence of both the original playstation as well as SquareSoft.  Perhaps the greatest injustice in the world is the fact that it has never received a sequel or the attention it deserves.  I personally find it a bit of a slap in the face that other action RPGs of much less quality and vision such as those found on the PC constantly receive more acclaim from the gaming population.