Topic: More bullshit from the American, Canadian and Syrian government

[Pugnate]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/01/26/canada.apology.ap/index.html

He said he was chained and shackled by U.S. authorities for 11 days during interrogation and then flown to Syria, where he was tortured and forced to make false confessions.

He was released 10 months later, with Syrian officials saying they had no reason to hold him further.

That really makes me shudder... anyway when you are done with the link above, you may want to read the following.

I have a cousin whose first name is Mohommad -- which is a typical first name. He is a business person and travels a lot over Europe to trade fairs etc. A couple of years ago he visited the USA for the first time ever, and after he was done with business it was naturally time for him to leave. So he was at the airport about to board his flight when two federal agents grabbed him and told him they had to take him in for questioning.

They held him for two weeks where they tortured him, didn't allow him sleep, and gave him minimal food and water. After that period they finally came up to him and said,"Mr. ___, we have made a mistake. We have determined you aren't a threat and we would like you to accept our apologies. Please accept this reservation to the five star hotel nearby, and you will always be welcome in our country."

I don't think my cousin spent a moment at the hotel, and just got the hell out of the country. BTW, there is no way in hell that my cousin is a terrorist. He wouldn't hurt a fly.

[angrykeebler]

Other than the shackling for 11 days part, it doesn't seem fair just to blame the American government..i mean

"It found that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police wrongly labeled Arar as an Islamic fundamentalist and passed misleading and inaccurate information to U.S. authorities, which very likely led to Arar's arrest and deportation."

So it was Canada who labeled him a terrorist and the Syrians who tortured him. Shouldnt your title read "More bullshit from the American, Canadian and Syrian governments"?

[Pugnate]

I don't think the Canadian government would have been under pressure to make such mistakes without the paranoid neighbors breathing down their necks.

*I smell a four page thread.*

[iPPi]

Yea I've been reading about this.  It's pretty terrible stuff.

[angrykeebler]

I don't think the Canadian government would have been under pressure to make such mistakes without the paranoid neighbors breathing down their necks.

*I smell a four page thread.*

See, now you are just assuming things and it makes you sound paranoid in turn. Suffice to say, it sounds like all 3 governments are at fault. (Especially Syria who did the actual torturing.)

[Quemaqua]

This whole thread smells like bullshit to me.

[scottws]

Well, I guess having people's heads cut off and filming and televising the whole thing isn't as bad.

[beo]

edit. i'm drunk, but for the record i think it's utterly sick how your cousin was treated, pug.

[Pugnate]

See, now you are just assuming things and it makes you sound paranoid in turn. Suffice to say, it sounds like all 3 governments are at fault. (Especially Syria who did the actual torturing.)

Point taken. Also PvP in WoW sucks.

This whole thread smells like bullshit to me.

What the fuck does that mean? Well Morrowind sucked and it was bullshit!

Well, I guess having people's heads cut off and filming and televising the whole thing isn't as bad.

huh? What the fuck does that have to do with anything? The Iraqi courts killing and executing Sadam Hussein and the video leaking on the internet was bad, but what the hell does that have to do with Muslims being tortured for just being Muslims?

i'm drunk, but for the record i think it's utterly sick how your cousin was treated, pug.

Yea this was three or four years ago. Once my uncle, his wife, their teenage daughter and his son who has autism (and is 12) were traveling back home to Virginia. They are American citizens and their only 'fault' is that they are Muslim. Once they got on board, even though they were supposed to be sitting together, they were separated to different parts of the plane, where my uncle had to sit next to a US marshal.

My uncle was pretty understanding about it though. I was talking to him, and he said he understood why it happened. He also said the US marshal was a really nice fellow as well and was just doing his job.

I don't have issues with that. I have issues with torture though.

If none of you believed my first story, then I am saddened. I swear it is true. You guys have known me for what, eight years? I wouldn't make shit like that up.

The problem is American News. It is full of propaganda and selective news just as any other country. You guys are a bunch of intelligent people, and need to read news from all over and then make an informed decision.

There are reports every day in the paper of torture of innocent Muslims etc. I must admit, I didn't believe much of it until I met my cousin the other day.

[ren]

I do believe your story and find it utterly disgusting. Yet at the same time I don't really believe you. I can't comprehend it, it doesn't seem possible. How's that for brainwashing?

[Pugnate]

Well to be honest I've heard of stuff like that happening before, but never believed it to be true either. I just couldn't believe something like that could happen. I guess it is different when it is a family member.

The guy's fault was he had a Bangladeshi passport, a beard, an odd first name, was visiting the US of A for the first time, and probably looked like someone on a list they had.

[scottws]

huh? What the fuck does that have to do with anything? The Iraqi courts killing and executing Sadam Hussein and the video leaking on the internet was bad, but what the hell does that have to do with Muslims being tortured for just being Muslims?

My post had nothing to do with Saddam Hussein.  It had to do with all the Americans that were captured and beheaded just for being Americans.

There is one famous example, but it is just one instance.

Pug, there may or may not be more to your story.  I feel like saying he was captured and tortured just for being Muslim is kind of unfair, considering there are tons of Muslims that live in Canada and the U.S. (don't know about Syria) that aren't captured and tortured... like 99.9999% of them.

My post is simply to illustrate that Muslims aren't exactly friendly either.

[Pugnate]

That's an extremely fucking stupid comparison.

Daniel Pearl was a tragic case where he was captured and executed by extremists, who were eventually punished.

I'd be interested to hear of cases where the Pakistani government went around torturing Americans. You are comparing something done to a Pakistani citizen by the American government to an American citizen abducted by extremists in Pakistan.

[scottws]

I don't think it's an unfair comparison at all, honestly.  You say this guy was tortured for being Muslim.  Well Americans in the Middle East have been fucking beheaded on video for being American.  So don't act like such a victim.  Muslim parties are guilty of worse atrocities.

[beo]

so it's acceptable for an apparently civilized nation's government to torture an innocent, just because someone who happens to have the same faith as said innocent practices torture? that's some pretty fucked up logic.

and i don't think pug is claiming to be a victim, but if one of your relatives went to what is an apparently civilized country and was subjected to torture, would you just let it go? i highly doubt it, i know i'd be completely up in arms, but then civil liberties and freedom mean something to me.

[scottws]

That's unfair.  I never tried to justify it.  Both acts are atrocious.  However, I get tired of hearing how victimized Muslims are, as if they are the angels of the world.  I was merely pointing that out.

[beo]

i think it's entirely fair. and i don't think muslims are portrayed as angels of the world - in my experience it's anything but. and don't get me wrong, i think their are some very dangerous islamic based organisations out there, but to justify it with the playground logic of "he pushed me first", is fucked. maybe i expect more of the government of a westernised nation.

[scottws]

Again, you completely missed the point.  I never attempted to justify the actions of any of these governments, as I said.  Again, my post's only purpose was to say that I'm tired of hearing about this sort of thing.  I mean... I just think they should look in the mirror (as a culture) and realize there is some pretty fucked up shit going on there as well. 

[beo]

i don't think anyone would argue with you that there are some severely fucked up people who claim that their violence, very ignorantly, is faith inspired. but saying "so what, bad shit happens to americans at the hands of muslims" did seem to be a countering point that somehow justified what happened to pug's uncle - and to a greater extent, unfair treatment of people based on faith. if i misinterpreted you, i am sorry, but you must realise how it came across.

[scottws]

Ok, this thread is headed down the wrong road and I certainly haven't helped in that regard.  Pug, I'm sorry about your cousin, and I'm sorry my government was part in this ordeal that was linked to in the original post.

I will be the first to admit that I can be a racist individual.  I do tend to stereotype people into groups.  That said, I've never personally had a negative experience with any individual from the groups whose culture and stereotypical tendencies I generally frown upon.  And I've had good relationships and even friendships with people from such groups because I'm able to realize that they are not the sort of individual I am not very fond of.

I'll admit that Arabic Muslims fall into one of the categories of people I don't really have a very high regard for.  I think that shows in any of these sorts of posts on the Serious Topics board.  I don't necessarily wish to apologize for that.  But I do want it to be noted that I have great respect for both Pugnate and Xessive as I realize they are not the sort of extremist Muslims that are my enemy.

I also want to say that Pugnate is clearly distrustful of America.  That's fine, he seems to have a good reason to.  But everyone also needs to understand that Americans like myself are generally going to have a similar distrust or disdain of Arabic Muslims.  And in my opinion we have pretty good reasons to as well.

This isn't a meant to be a commentary on any specific events discussed in this thread or elsewhere, but rather as sort of a framework to help understand where I (and maybe others like me) come from when I respond to threads such as these.

[Quemaqua]

For the record, my comment was not to say that the story is untrue or that I have any disdain for anyone, only that I'm sick and fucking tired of stories like this coming out and people trying to talk about them as though they have even the slightest fucking clue as to the truth.  You don't, and you never will.  Don't bother trying to divine it from articles or protests or angry individuals shouting about it.  None of us have even the slightest clue what's really going on anywhere and I wish to fucking hell we'd stop acting like we do.

[beo]

i would disagree with you que. while we certainly don't know the whole story in situations such as these, the glimpses we get are disturbing, and to ignore them is well, ignorance in the most literal sense of the word. if the bad shit that is seemingly let fly continues down the same vein, we'll be living in an even worse world in the next few decades. in my eyes and those of many others here, it's important stuff, and if you don't care to discuss it, i suggest that you don't.

i don't mean to fan the flames, but on the serious discussions board, i feel that we should be able to talk about such things without the fear of been told to "shut up" for no other reason than that you distrust the entirety of the world's media. you seem to believe that everything anyone writes has a hidden agenda and none of it has enough truth in it to be considered close to fact. certain news sources definitely love to put spin on things, and i have seen complete and utter misrepresentation of the facts and opinion reported as truth - but that, by no means, is an indicator for every news source on the planet.

if i offend, that is not my intention and i apologise - i just feel the need to confront what i don't agree with.

[gpw11]

I’m going to say something here, not referring to anyone in this particular discussion, but just in general.   It’s something I see all the time when people are arguing over something related to politics or ideals in school, coffee shops, on the loser bus, or whatever.  A lot of times people are arguing over absolutely nothing and don’t really even think about it.

Look at what Pug is saying:  some government officials fucked up, a few people got screwed over it and it’s unfair.  Is that so unbelievable?  It fucking happens all the time in one way or another, and it obviously shouldn’t in an ideal world….which is what our society should be striving for.  I don’t see how anyone could disagree with that.

Honestly, if you’re sick of hearing about it, then just ignore it, but don’t get pissed off when people are outraged because of it.  It shouldn’t happen in our society with our value system PERIOD.   You’d be fucking pissed off if you got pulled over and held illegally (on some loophole) for days because of a case of mistaken identity.  Show me someone who wouldn’t be and I’ll show you someone who doesn’t deserve to have an opinion in the first place.

At the same time, people need to stop pretending that these are intentional things that happen because of malicious reasons.   Yes, racial profiling does exist, but whether or not it is wrong is a question we shouldn’t even get into.  Regardless of how you feel about that, you have to look at it reasonably and realize that these aren’t cases of just hassling some Muslims, these are cases of faulty information and/or mistaken identity.  That doesn’t make it acceptable, but claiming that it’s intentional and these governments are just straight up evil doesn’t convince anyone of anything.

And people should be outraged when these kinds of things happen.  All your rights and freedoms don’t mean shit unless those in power know that there are asses on the line and heads will roll if they are infringed upon.  You can have the most beautifully written constitution in the world, but all it is is a piece of paper unless people support it.   

[Pugnate]

Where was I trying to be such a victim? Where am I holding bias against the USA? What?

All I did was relate an incident about a situation my cousin was in, and that was all it took to have a whole bunch of overly sensitive and awkwardly defensive comments.

The other thread had one joke about Americans, and next thing I know I am apparently 'anti American', have a 'giant chip on my shoulder' and 'am trying to be a victim'.

Is that all it takes to offend some of you? I find that highly interesting.

I don't think it's an unfair comparison at all, honestly.  You say this guy was tortured for being Muslim.  Well Americans in the Middle East have been fucking beheaded on video for being American.  So don't act like such a victim.  Muslim parties are guilty of worse atrocities.

Jeebus. Where is this coming from? Look at what you are saying. This would be like you talking about how the Pakistani government tortured some white American, and then me saying that you should get off your high horse, because the Americans have done plenty of fucked up shit. Would that make any sense?

There is plenty of shit going on in the Muslim world, that is often discussed on these forums and I have no issue with condemning the Muslims for being the jack asses that they are.

And again... American government making a mistake and torturing a Muslim doesn't equate extremists horribly murdering a good soul who happened to be a journalist.

However, I get tired of hearing how victimized Muslims are, as if they are the angels of the world.  I was merely pointing that out.

I am just flabbergasted here. What if a Jewish person was tortured by Muslims? Would you say that you were tired about hearing about Jews being victimized when their soldiers are committing atrocities?

Do you not see them as human beings first? Do you define them and group them by their religion?

To me this like someone talking about a black guy being beaten up because of his skin color and then you saying,"Oh I am tired of these fucking niggers acting like victims. Not all of them are angels."

Scottws that is pretty fucked up.

"so what, bad shit happens to americans at the hands of muslims" did seem to be a countering point that somehow justified what happened to pug's uncle

Just wanted to clarify that it was my cousin. My uncle was the one whose family including his very young autistic son were forced to sit separately on a plane flying to Virginia. The only reason I brought up this story was to point out that even though he was obviously profiled, he completely understood why and felt it was necessary.

The reason I mentioned it early on was to show that most civilized Muslims feel that most steps are necessary. However what happend to my cousin was outrageous.

I will be the first to admit that I can be a racist individual.

Wheeee.

I also want to say that Pugnate is clearly distrustful of America.  That's fine, he seems to have a good reason to.  But everyone also needs to understand that Americans like myself are generally going to have a similar distrust or disdain of Arabic Muslims.  And in my opinion we have pretty good reasons to as well.

I don't know, but where does that come from? This is the first such thread I've made, and only because of what happened to my cousin. I can't really remember making any other comments otherwise.

At the same time, people need to stop pretending that these are intentional things that happen because of malicious reasons.   Yes, racial profiling does exist, but whether or not it is wrong is a question we shouldn’t even get into.  Regardless of how you feel about that, you have to look at it reasonably and realize that these aren’t cases of just hassling some Muslims, these are cases of faulty information and/or mistaken identity.  That doesn’t make it acceptable, but claiming that it’s intentional and these governments are just straight up evil doesn’t convince anyone of anything

Yea absolutely. It wasn't intentional, and they apologized to him at the end of it all as it was definitely a mistake.

They basically wouldn't let him sleep for the two weeks or so he was there and kept his eyes near an intense light or something. He wasn't given any food, and just water and was questioned constantly and they did a bit of 'mental disintegration'.

At the end they apologized to him and said they made reservations at a hotel for him, and apologized on behalf of the government etc etc. He pretty much laughed about how he rejected the hotel and just wanted to leave ASAP.

As for what happened with my uncle, again he is an American citizen. He was traveling with his wife, his daughter and his autistic son to Virginia when instead of being allowed to sit together, the whole family was told to sit separately. My uncle had a US marshal sit next to him, and my uncle said he wasn't a bad fellow, and just doing his job.

As for the thread title, I can see why it may make me seem really pissed off, but it wasn't inspired by what happened to my uncle, or my cousin, but rather by the CNN article.

[Cobra951]

I have been following this thread, but given my past overly emotional reactions to such topics, I've refrained from engaging in the converstation.  There are 3 things I want to say, and I'm going to bullet them, to emphasize the limited nature and quantity of my involvement.

* Pug, we love you, man.  I know you find yourself in a difficult situation, given what some shockingly evil groups, mostly from your region of the world, are doing these days.  Guilt by perceived association is extremely unfair, and I hope you know that at least here, it ain't gonna happen to you.

* The frustration Americans feel about this issue, compounded by the guilt by association we are subjected to, worldwide, makes us edgy and touchy, when the subject comes up.  Slap someone with a sunburn on the back, and see if they laugh, or do something else.

* I think gpw's post is the best one of the thread, without a doubt.