Topic: Large open-ended RPG editorial

[idolminds]

Pretty good read.

 *** Super-Duper Cliff's Notes version -- RPG Developers: Stop creating "open ended, epic-scale" time-consuming worlds while ignoring the people that only have 10-30 minutes a night to play *and progress* in your game, i.e. the much sought-after, "casual," "mainstream" player. ***

[Xessive]

Haha I agree to a certain extent. I love an epic game, but if it's too big I'll probably get bored with it well before I finish it.

I'm still playing Oblivion! And based on what I've read about Gothic 3 I'm really looking forward to it.

[MysterD]

I don't think any of the GTA's I've played (GTA3, GTA: Vice City, and GTA: San Andreas) ALL put together have held me to the amount of time I actually spent w/ Oblivion alone. GTA: San Andreas has BARELY held me for much of the actual game itself; as much as I do like it, I just don't come back to it. And the same goes for Far Cry, which I'm 1/2 done with -- b/c it's checkpoint save system was not balanced AT ALL for locations to put the saves. Most GTA games, I've stuck w/ the main quest and done some of the side stuff -- but, you know what? I might so some side stuff here and there, but once I finish the main quest, I might spend a lil' time w/ the game post-main quest, but that's about it....

Well, why is that? Well, NONE of these games listed above have a good saving system, to be honest. Even Dungeon Siege 2's save system is better than all of GTA's (ouch!) -- since in DS 2, you can always save your character's progress (which includes quests, items, levels, etc -- everything except location), even if you will get kicked back to the nearest town when you load your last save. With Oblivion, I might've finished the game in a few months or so and spent over 115 hours w/ it, but I could SAVE at any time I felt like -- while in the process of doing ANYTHING. I could drop it at any time. With GTA games like say GTA: San Andreas, I feel restricted -- I can only save in certain locations. Now, that is fine and all, but I think the real problem lies w/ the missions not even having in-mission checkpoint saves. If you fail a mission, START OVER -- and yes, some of these missions are long, have multiple parts to it, and are actually tough. In Freelancer, you can only SAVE when you're at a station and all (like say in the GTA games) -- and many of these missions in Freelancer had multiple parts to it, but if you finished a part of a multiple-part mission in Freelancer, it automatically auto-saved once you finished a key part of the mission; at least w/ that, if I die, I don't have to START THE ENITRE MISSION OVER. It's an actually very good approach, if you ask me -- and kept me playing until I got the mission done with. Now, I still think Oblivion takes the best approach w/ saving, where I could be in the midst of doing ANYTHING -- I can save and jump right back to exactly what I was doing, but Freelancer's system works VERY WELL.

Now, I understand the point w/ Oblivion and the horses -- I wish I could've been able to do combat on the horses, too. Point taken.

And about Oblivion's length, I believe the main quest, if you follow JUST that, can be finished in say 15-20 hours -- especially since the entire game has "auto-level scaling." So, really, I don't know why he complains Oblivion's TOO LONG overall. GTA: San An can be that 115 hours long, if you DO EVERYTHING. But really, if he's complaining, he should complain about games that take 35 hours or more for THE MAIN QUEST ALONE. To finish a game, all you need to do is finish the MAIN QUEST. And unlike Morrowind, you can easily follow Oblivion's Main Quest string if you just make all your Main Quests active and use the easy teleport system to get there and follow the compass. Hell ,when you get a Main Quest in Oblivion, the game will ask you "Would you like to make this Quest Active?" right off the tip of the bat! And there's a lot of different stuff to do in Oblivion, from doing the missions for the numerous Guilds to doing the AWESOME Arena missions. And the Brotherhood quests are some of the best stuff in the game, actually -- such as the "Clue"-like mission in the mansion w/ a whole bunch to kill in a Stealthy manner to get a cool bonus.

[idolminds]

Yes, being able to save anywhere is a great plus to the "pick up and play for 10 minutes" thing.

Sure you can beat the main quest in Oblivion in 20 hours. Then what? Doesnt that kind of waste this huge world they created? What is there to keep me coming back? I can jump into a dungeon and look for treasure...except nothing you find is worth much and the dungeons all tend to look the same.

Look at WoW. I can go in there and play some Warsong Gulch, or check the AH, go fishing, try sell some enchants, just kill a couple enemies...theres things besides just doing the main quest (ie, get to 60).

[Quemaqua]

The problem is you really only find that kind of thing in the MMOs.  It isn't as easy to do in an SP game because people *expect* more focused content.  They don't just go and "hang out" the same way they do in an online game, and that's partly because those games are social and just better rigged toward that kind of thing.

And while beating Oblivion in 20 hours does kind of waste the huge world, that's what MyD is saying.  You can just kind of pick up and play it here and there if you want to and not go crazy with it.  Or you can.  It's really up to you, waste or otherwise.  I think we should have more options like that.  I think it's cool when a game can taylor itself to a more casual player *and* a more hardcore player simultaneously.  WoW is a good example of that as well.  I'm very much a casual player and I still really enjoy it, whereas all the hardcore people have tons of stuff they can do as well and be rewarded for.  Yet I still don't feel cheated out of the uber-content because I feel like I'm still getting my fill anyway.

[MysterD]

Yes, being able to save anywhere is a great plus to the "pick up and play for 10 minutes" thing.

Exactly/

Sure you can beat the main quest in Oblivion in 20 hours. Then what? Doesnt that kind of waste this huge world they created? What is there to keep me coming back? I can jump into a dungeon and look for treasure...except nothing you find is worth much and the dungeons all tend to look the same.

I didn't do a lot of dungeon searching in Oblivion, unlike Morrowind; though in Oblivion, I did loads of Quests. The game is literally scattered ALL OVER w/ loads and loads and loads of them -- talk to people and get nosey, you'll get stuff to do. Guaranteed.

Often, doing those quests will give you some really bad-ass unique items. Especially the Dark Brotherhood quests.

Oblivion has unique items and whatnot, but they're not as placed as say Morrowind's in dungeons and whatnot -- since most of Oblivion is auto-scaled to YOUR level.

I definitely recommend for Oblivion players to do the quests in The Guilds and The Arena.

And if you want to come back to Oblivion, there are mods that you can make or download. Does GTA have a Toolkit being supported by the actual game designers??!?! I think not.

Look at WoW. I can go in there and play some Warsong Gulch, or check the AH, go fishing, try sell some enchants, just kill a couple enemies...theres things besides just doing the main quest (ie, get to 60).

Fable was not a long game by any shot, but it had a lot of "variety" for what to do -- since you can get married, buy a house, play games at the tavern, etc etc.

[MysterD]

The problem is you really only find that kind of thing in the MMOs.  It isn't as easy to do in an SP game because people *expect* more focused content.  They don't just go and "hang out" the same way they do in an online game, and that's partly because those games are social and just better rigged toward that kind of thing.

Agreed. SP content is often much more focused than MMO's.

And while beating Oblivion in 20 hours does kind of waste the huge world, that's what MyD is saying.  You can just kind of pick up and play it here and there if you want to and not go crazy with it.  Or you can.  It's really up to you, waste or otherwise.

Exactly.

Oblivion is the kind of game that once you spend 15 hours w/ it, you likely ain't seen everything to it. And the same goes for the GTA's and many of those games. But, all of these games have side quest/side mission galore.

I think we should have more options like that.  I think it's cool when a game can taylor itself to a more casual player *and* a more hardcore player simultaneously.

Exactly.

Oblivion is average length, for the main quest -- 15-20 hours. And b/c it's auto-scaled, you don't have to spend 35-60 hours just to finish the damn thing. You want to spend that much or more w/ it? GO right ahead.

[idolminds]

True Que, I forgot to mention that. Some of the things in WoW can only happen because its a MMO. How would you make a singleplayer auction house?

Ok so we wont be hanging around in Oblivion for the social aspect, but what could they have done to keep us there anyway? Take a look at Animal Crossing, which might be a better example. Its so simple, yet you can spend lots of time there and play it for months. Its these psudo-minigames. Fishing, fossil hunting, collecting stuff, catch bugs, gardening (trees and flowers), writing letters to NPCs.

Uh...this post cut short because I have to go somewhere. More when I return.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, I know what you mean, and I agree completely.  I love "collecting" crap in games.  Any game where I can basically go on treasure hunts to complete some kind of collection is just awesome, and I also totally agree that's one place where all TES games are lacking.  There's tons to do in terms of the raw gameplay, but not tons to do in terms of just little things that don't have as much purpose or are there just to generally amuse you.  They do tend to add things in mods sometimes, and user-made mods tend to be where you can really find this stuph.  I mean, I found an Oblivion snail-racing mod.  If you can find that, you can find fucking anything.  So yeah, I agree with what you're saying, and I think the biggest reason TES games in recent years have avoided this is because the users make all kinds of fun things to tinker with.  But it would definitely be nice to have some more official time-wasting activities like fishing and junk.  They could go crazy with a fishing or hunting system that was really robust.

[Xessive]

I really wish they added unique armor and weapon sets in Oblivion. They have sets, but they're all pretty basic. It woulda been cool if it had 'rare' sets, so that when you've collected all the pieces of the armor you get an additional bonus. I liked that in games like Diablo 2, or Titan Quest. I think Dungeon Siege may have had it as well.

[Quemaqua]

Equipment has been the biggest problem with every single TES game ever.  There just isn't enough.  Not enough variety, either.

[idolminds]

Back now. Yeah, you get what I'm saying. Oblivion can still have its huge epic story and quests...but they should also let me just live in the world. Its like...the world exists for you to be a hero. What if I dont want to be a hero? I want to plant a garden I have to water, make potions from the stuff and sell them. Sure you get "gardens" in the mage tower and stuff, but they are just sorta "there". You just come by and pick them.

And this doesnt just apply to oblivion, obviously. A lot of these large open games all seem rather "narrow" when you think about it.

[MysterD]

I really wish they added unique armor and weapon sets in Oblivion. They have sets, but they're all pretty basic. It woulda been cool if it had 'rare' sets, so that when you've collected all the pieces of the armor you get an additional bonus. I liked that in games like Diablo 2, or Titan Quest. I think Dungeon Siege may have had it as well.

Oh yeah -- Dungeon Siege has so many Unique Sets, it's unreal. That's one of the best parts of the game; there's loads and loads of unique sets. And you come by equipment like -- well, like crazy.

And I like DS2's Enchantable equipment -- my God, you can really pimp out your equipment.

Another game which rocked w/ enchanting your equipment was Divine Divinity.

[Quemaqua]

I completely agree with you, idol.  I'd love to get more of that kind of thing added to games.  What I've always wanted for TES games was the ability to construct your own house in-game.  Like have to earn money for it and stuph.  And like you said, then you can have a garden or this and that, things you have to take care of periodically, and maybe some minigames to play.  And there was a fully-functional casino in a Morrowind mod I had that was awesome.  Bethesda could very easily create some unique minigames and add them as attractions to cities and such.  Yeah, I fully agree that games of that type, while offering tons to do, can often be very narrow in their overall scope of function.

[MysterD]

Ok so we wont be hanging around in Oblivion for the social aspect, but what could they have done to keep us there anyway? Take a look at Animal Crossing, which might be a better example. Its so simple, yet you can spend lots of time there and play it for months. Its these psudo-minigames. Fishing, fossil hunting, collecting stuff, catch bugs, gardening (trees and flowers), writing letters to NPCs.

Uh...this post cut short because I have to go somewhere. More when I return.

...

Back now. Yeah, you get what I'm saying. Oblivion can still have its huge epic story and quests...but they should also let me just live in the world. Its like...the world exists for you to be a hero. What if I dont want to be a hero? I want to plant a garden I have to water, make potions from the stuff and sell them. Sure you get "gardens" in the mage tower and stuff, but they are just sorta "there". You just come by and pick them.

And this doesnt just apply to oblivion, obviously. A lot of these large open games all seem rather "narrow" when you think about it.

About Morrowind and Oblivion, you could always use your Alchemy skill and make potions w/ the flowers and plants you find. You can sell the plants and objects you find in the world, too...

You know, Fable: TLC tried to do this w/ a handful of mini-games, to an extent -- you can try and do the "Sims" route and get yourself a girlfriend (or girlfriends) -- you could make her your wife, get married, have sex with her, etc etc. Though, there wasn't a super hell of a lot to w/ it, you could always divert yourself from the game w/ it. It was nice to be a non-hero, for a lil' bit of time. I'm betting since they set the foundation for that in Fable, Fable 2 will probably only just expand it.

Oh, and in Fable: TLC, you could dress your house up a lil' bit -- yeah, you could buy a lil' bit of furniture for it and stuff.

And, you could mess w/ your haircuts and appearance and stuff at the Barbershop -- yeah, that was cool.

And at some taverns/bars, you could play some mini-games -- like card games and dice games and stuff.

[TheOtherBelmont]

I agree with a lot of that stuff in that editorial, when I play a RPG that's too open ended I find myself fairly bored.  Sure its cool that you can do all this shit and it deserves a thumbs up on the developer's end for the work they put into it, but it doesn't feel like you accomplish anything sometimes and its one of the reasons I probably won't ever play Oblivion because Morrowind bored the hell out of me.

[Quemaqua]

I feel exactly the opposite.  I get a much greater sense of accomplishment from an open-ended game simply because I feel like I actually sought something out and achieved it... instead of having it thrown right in front of me and being more or less told what to do.  When I look back at all the stuff I did in Oblivion, I feel like I went and found most of it.  It was waiting for me, sure, but I wasn't told about it... it took my own love of exploration and my natural inquisitiveness to discover a lot of the stuff.  I find that *infinitely* more satisfying.

[K-man]

I feel exactly the opposite.  I get a much greater sense of accomplishment from an open-ended game simply because I feel like I actually sought something out and achieved it... instead of having it thrown right in front of me and being more or less told what to do.  When I look back at all the stuff I did in Oblivion, I feel like I went and found most of it.  It was waiting for me, sure, but I wasn't told about it... it took my own love of exploration and my natural inquisitiveness to discover a lot of the stuff.  I find that *infinitely* more satisfying.

:thumbsup

Oblivion's a game that I hope I'm never truly "done" with.  Morrowind too.

[MysterD]

I feel exactly the opposite.  I get a much greater sense of accomplishment from an open-ended game simply because I feel like I actually sought something out and achieved it... instead of having it thrown right in front of me and being more or less told what to do.  When I look back at all the stuff I did in Oblivion, I feel like I went and found most of it.

I don't mind linear games, as long as they keep me occupied w/ a variety of different stuff to do on that line and w/ a good amount of challenge, but sometimes following the straight line can be boring -- especially if the designers don't do a good job of trying to keep you interesting in staying on that straight line w/ the story and the different amount of stuff you can basically add to your Inventory -- and Titan Quest and Diablo 2 are a prime example of how to do this, in that type of RPG game. I mean, those games keep you going b/c the action's well done, there's numerous types and varieties of enemies, and b/c of the variety of different unique sets of loot is absolutely insane. You really DO want to see all the amounts of loot these games might have -- and equip some of them! In these games, I often find myself changing my Equipped items so much, it's hard to actually keep up with!

NWN: OC's story was mediocre and it kept me on, for the most part, a straight path -- since the game wasn't side quest crazy. Though, there was some side quests here and there. I ended up doing most of the sides b/c once the main quest wasn't too exciting, at times -- namely b/c the story really lacked, in many parts of the game; namely, the parts w/ the rise of an ancient alien race was dull and felt quite rushed. Though, I never lost interest in NWN: Hordes and NWN2 main quest b/c the story was so good, even though the game wasn't side quest crazy. I did most of the sides in NWN: Hordes and NWN2, but never lost interest in the game for one minute.
 

It was waiting for me, sure, but I wasn't told about it... it took my own love of exploration and my natural inquisitiveness to discover a lot of the stuff.  I find that *infinitely* more satisfying.

This is why I love the open-ended nature of those kind of games like Oblivion. Que, I couldn't have said it any better.

I mean, you know -- sometimes I just need a break from the main quest, too. There can be a time when I might I just want to do other stuff than follow the hero's/anti-hero's main quest.