Author Topic: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again  (Read 5161 times)

Offline gpw11

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I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« on: Friday, February 23, 2007, 11:51:48 PM »
Where do you all stand on the '911 Truth Movement'?

Offline idolminds

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #1 on: Saturday, February 24, 2007, 12:11:31 AM »
You mean the conspiracy nutjobs?

Offline gpw11

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #2 on: Saturday, February 24, 2007, 01:26:36 AM »
Hmmmm....yes.  I've been doing some research over the last few days, and I've come to a conclusion.  I should explain from the start.

I came across an article on digg.com the other day talking about a BBC documentary on the Truth Movement and how it was a 'Hit Piece'.    The comments section for this particular article was like a bonfire. This kind of talk breeds controversy, which in turn breeds arguments.  I noticed something here.  A small portion of those involved on the side of "I don't buy it" refered to the opposing side as 'wackos in the basement' whereas an extremely large portion (possibly even all) of those involved on the side of "the government was totally behind it" referred to their opposition as 'sheep', 'sheeples', 'blind', or 'ignorant'.  I tried to get involved, talk about how I was very open minded on the subject and just sided with the conclusion that had the most evidence that seemed plausible to me and in turn I was told I wasn't open minded and I had just bought what the man was selling because I was just a sheep and it was easier for me that way. 

I promptly stepped out of the argument and begun my research because now I had a theory.  It started with clicking on users who seemed to be the most adamant in their belief that the gov't had to be behind it and looking at their history.  I was on the right track.  They were heavily into this shit, all the stories they dugg had something to do with it, and many submitted infowars.com stories.  Next step was examining their world.  This consisted of looking at the comments in these stories, especially the ones that never made the front page.  As I suspected the comment sections for the ones not making the front page was heavily dominated by 'truthers'.  Perfect. 

You see, even in these areas where there really was no opposition they referred to those who didn't agree or just didn't care in the same derogatory ways.  Basically they'd pat themselves on the back, make a comment about how it's too bad the sheep would never read it because they like their security blankets too much, and then someone else would say the exact same thing in different words. 

Now, let me ask you something; if you were trying to convince people of conspiracy how would you do it?  Probably not with things like this:



Fuck no you wouldn't...if you were at all intelligent.  You see, you can't convince any reasonable or intelligent person of anything with strawman arguments, improper appeals to authority, or ad hominem attacks.  You just can't...and yet that seems to be the main tactic here.  Now, I'm not saying that everyone who thinks the gov't is behind this is like this, I'm just saying there are a ton of people out there like this, and their belief in the questionable evidence is fanatical. 

In my research I came across things like the following (actually this is a rough paraphrase of something I've seen about 4 or 5 times in the last 2 days...this exact example):

I just want to know how jet fuel which is merely over hyped diesel can melt steel to the point of molten lava in under an hour(while black smoke is spewing out). All this and weaken the structure to the point that it collapses into it's own footprint at nearly free fall speed. I once left water boiling on the stove for over 8 hrs. When I arrived home the water was evaporated and the pan was a little black, but it did not melt. Granted this was 8hrs over a blue flame(perfectly controlled burn) not a messy orangey yellow flame with black soot and smoke. THINK??? it's basic chemistry people get out your Bunsen burner and try it LOL. GO BACK TO SLEEP AMERICA THE BBC HAS FIGURED IT OUT----NOTTT!!!!!!!

After this someone will post an ASCE statement or quote from a source explaining how this could happen (and I'm no engineer but they always sound pretty plausible to me).  The reply is usually along the lines of "they got bought off', 'they're in on it', or 'do the research yourself...that's inaccurate.'  and the always great 'how could you read that with your head in the sand?'

And that's the beauty of the movement.  You can't win an argument with the ones who love to spread the good word.  They can illogically shoot you down with no shame because they're blinded to logic.  Fuck, you can even bait them into falling into logic traps. 

"blah blah blah he said pull it and they pulled it....demolition man...demolition"
Really?  That would take quite a few people.  You're implying that crews wired three buildings and a portion of the FDs and PDs  knew about this, let alone all the bureaucrats.  I'm surprised no one has come forward.
"Get your head out of the sand.  If they come forward they'll be killed"
Why is Alex Jones still alive?
"First of all because he's just providing evidence, it's low profile and a lot less convincing than whistle blowing to the sheep.  Second he's a public figure, if they kill him it'll be confirmation that they did it."
You're claiming they flew multiple planes into buildings, demolished one - maybe more, killed thousands of people, flew a plane into the ground, blamed it on a terrorist organization in order to start a war with a sovereign state, and they're scared of faking a car crash or inducing a heart attack to kill the main guy that's on to their shit?  Yeah, that's sound logic.  And with all the disinformation they might spread...you don't think this could be part of it?  Possibly?  Oh right...you researched* it

*watched a few documentaries produced by teenagers

Where am I going with this?  Right here:

1.) We have a lot of people who buy into this movement.  Not only that, but these people are borderline fanatical in their belief.  Again, this is not everyone who thinks the government could be involved in some way, just the ones that fit this profile.

2.) They are very illogical.

3.) Digg has a very diverse user base.  Looking at the profiles I found all kinds of people fit this profile.  A lot are college graduates (I assume).  This is a cross cutting market segment.  Seemingly intelligent people (read: with good jobs) fit the profile as well as uneducated highschool students.  People from different nations, ethnic backrounds, and traditional political beliefs fit this profile. 

4.) I believe they are easily manipulated.  I believe this because of their argument style and strange 'brotherhood' attitude.  These are the people Manson surrounded himself with.  Except in this case they've already been parsed...they're already grouped and they already have a fanatical devotion to something.  No training or trial and error required.  It's already been done.

5.) Profit.  I have a plan to profit from this.  It's in a very early developmental stage right now, but I think it could work.  I think.  It would involve producing a low cost good for them to buy.  Something along the line of shitty symbolic fiction that they'll see as their movements own little '1984'....and selling it. Selling it to them.  The great thing is it doesn't have to be good.  It's like reverse engineering their movement.  Breakdown what about this appeals to them, incorporate it into a very short fictional work (because all good symbolic fiction/manifestos are short) and sell that bitch to buy cool shit.


Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #3 on: Saturday, February 24, 2007, 03:32:50 AM »
In my research I came across things like the following (actually this is a rough paraphrase of something I've seen about 4 or 5 times in the last 2 days...this exact example):

I just want to know how jet fuel which is merely over hyped diesel can melt steel to the point of molten lava in under an hour(while black smoke is spewing out). All this and weaken the structure to the point that it collapses into it's own footprint at nearly free fall speed. I once left water boiling on the stove for over 8 hrs. When I arrived home the water was evaporated and the pan was a little black, but it did not melt. Granted this was 8hrs over a blue flame(perfectly controlled burn) not a messy orangey yellow flame with black soot and smoke. THINK??? it's basic chemistry people get out your Bunsen burner and try it LOL. GO BACK TO SLEEP AMERICA THE BBC HAS FIGURED IT
Do you have any links, references, or exact quotes? Because for the sake of humanity, I hope you just fucked up that paraphrase and no one is actually that stupid.

First, jet fuel is (mostly) kerosene, not diesel. If you* aren't going to pay attention to trivially simple details like that while trying to make a highly technical argument, please just shut the fuck up.
*(That's the notional, generalized 'you' - "you gotta spend money to make money" - not GPW specifically.)

Second, I've seen the videos of the WTC collapse (who hasn't?), and it looks like the collapse travels at a pretty linear speed, meaning that it reached terminal velocity almost immediately. In air, it takes steel ~30-60 seconds to reach "free-fall velocity."* Lacking a detailed, quantitative analysis of the videos (yeah-fuckin'-right), I will consider this claim bullshit.
*I think this means "terminal velocity in air at one atmosphere," but that's probably because I'm thinking about this far more deeply than the authortard.

Third, the keytard compares a flaming skyscraper to a pot on the stove. I won't even bother explaining why the comparison is retarded.

Fourth, there is a revolutionary new technology that allows you to melt steel with only dried wood or brush (much poorer fuels than kerosene!). However I cannot fault the author for not knowing this, as this device - the furnace - has only been around for a bit longer than recorded history.

Fifth, I'm gonna stop here instead of getting into the Boltzmann constant and blackbody radiation, but let me just say I'm not nearly done with that quote.

This is even dumber than the kid who asked, "How do evolutionists explain gravity?"

Offline gpw11

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #4 on: Saturday, February 24, 2007, 05:16:52 AM »
heh, the great part is that's actually an exact quote from a digg coment.  It's from the original story that I mentioned where I actually made the mistake of trying to get involved and it eventually sent me on this tangent. Anyways, here's the thread, his comment is the last one (the 347th to be exact, so it might save time just to scroll to the very bottom).

http://digg.com/politics/BBC_9_11_Documentary_Likely_Hit_Piece

I should point out (if I didn't before) that I ran across this general argument many times.  Usually it comes with a rebuttal, in this instance it didn't.  The really interesting thing is I ran across this almost word for word a couple times previous to this (you'll notice that even though this story is days old - and thus dead by digg standards - 'truthers' still post in it).  After the first couple times I actually thought it was a bot or something of the sort....fuck, it might as well be (I understand now that it totally isn't and it's just a vaugly memorized and regurgitated argument).

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #5 on: Saturday, February 24, 2007, 06:17:26 AM »
Well fuck me and (especially) fuck them.
Quote from: Silent Majority
Seriously. When people state shit like "I mean, two GIANT planes flew into two GIANT buildings. Unexpected crap is bound to happen. Molten metal? Explosions? Yeah, that's not so unusual.".... I have to wonder. People haven't even bothered to educate themselves on the matter it seems. This is the first time in the history of the world that fire brought down a steel structure. The ONLY time in history...and 3 buildings fell. Not unusual? It's comments like this that show the 9/11 debunkers level of ignorance. People who truly have common sense and an unbiased, open and scientific mind will see that there's more than just coincidence here. I just wish more of my fellow Americans would lose their fear, and not be so afraid of what might be truth. What's wrong with another private investigation? What's there to hide or what are we so afraid to uncover?
The entirety of his objection seems to be a caveman sort of logic, that is, "Fire no hurt metal!" That steel will actually burn like wood (given sufficient temperature and oxygen) is totally beyond him. (Google to the effect of aircraft carrier fire.)

Offline Pugnate

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« Last Edit: Saturday, February 24, 2007, 08:58:02 AM by Pugnate »

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #7 on: Saturday, February 24, 2007, 06:42:04 AM »
For some reason this annoys me even more than normal stupid.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #8 on: Saturday, February 24, 2007, 08:59:38 AM »
For some reason this annoys me even more than normal stupid.

I think I am going to start orbiting his head. What an idiot.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #9 on: Saturday, February 24, 2007, 04:26:23 PM »
I stand in the same place I stand with the people who think we faked the moon landing, especially those who cite as perfect evidence that humanity cannot leave the Earth, because God won't allow it.  When a belief system is so ingrained, it's hopeless to use reason.   All we can do is let the wackos take as little of our attention as possible.  So, I'm done here.

Offline scottws

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #10 on: Saturday, February 24, 2007, 04:34:33 PM »
I haven't even heard that argument before, Cobra.  The ones I hear more often are the bright astronaut in the shadow of the lander, the blowing flag, and something showing in front of the crosshairs of one of the cameras.

I saw an interesting website that conducted experiments that had explanations for all those claims.  Pretty interesting stuff.

Here it is:  http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html

Offline gpw11

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #11 on: Sunday, February 25, 2007, 12:57:32 AM »
Dude, totally...you can't argue with them.  Which is why I have to fleece them.  That way intelligence still wins.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #12 on: Sunday, February 25, 2007, 02:16:46 AM »
We can't leave Earth because God won't allow it?  Where the hell do you find these people, seriously?  I'm a Christian, and you guys always seem to find the most bizarre beliefs and statements from religious people, stuff that I've never heard and can't imagine anyone saying.  It blows my mind, and I can't help but wonder what holes these people live in and how they seem to pop out long enough for anyone to get wind of their insanity.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Cobra951

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #13 on: Sunday, February 25, 2007, 09:53:32 PM »
We can't leave Earth because God won't allow it?  Where the hell do you find these people, seriously?  I'm a Christian, and you guys always seem to find the most bizarre beliefs and statements from religious people, stuff that I've never heard and can't imagine anyone saying.  It blows my mind, and I can't help but wonder what holes these people live in and how they seem to pop out long enough for anyone to get wind of their insanity.

I assure you, it's an argument I have heard personally.  I just now typed the phrase "moon landing against God's law" into dogpile, and here is the first relevant entry I got.

Quote
Although many believe man first reached the moon in July, 1969, we have information from a very reliable source, the Sanskrit Vedic scriptures, that the astronauts never actually went to the moon. The manned moon landing was a colossal hoax.

Quote
Now, why do we believe the Vedic scriptures rather than the material scientists? Because the Vedic scriptures differ from the conclusions of material science in that they are not based on imperfect sensory investigation, but are apaurusa i.e., they emanate from God, who is beyond the material world. In other words, Vedic evidence stands above the defects of conditioned souls within the material world. Thus, when it comes to real scientific knowledge, the standard of Vedic authority is perfect because it originates directly from the all-perfect, omniscient Personality of Godhead.

Unreal.  I could not have asked for better support for what I said.  Science is imperfect evidence.  The scriptures are perfect evidence, exactly the term I used before.

Did you know that the moon is further away than the sun, because these holy scriptures say so?  I'm going back to find more fun arguments like this one.


Offline Quemaqua

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #14 on: Sunday, February 25, 2007, 10:06:51 PM »
You shouldn't.  These kinds of people shouldn't be given the time of day.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Pugnate

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #15 on: Sunday, February 25, 2007, 10:11:15 PM »
I don't understand one thing. The Fox channel is extremely patriotic. You'd think they'd be the last to do a whole program on how the moon landing was fake.


Offline gpw11

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #16 on: Sunday, February 25, 2007, 10:16:51 PM »
Fox news is very patriotic, Fox in general isn't really.  It's a corporation looking for ways to make money.  The best way to do that is air shit that causes a stir.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #17 on: Sunday, February 25, 2007, 10:39:17 PM »
I don't understand one thing. The Fox channel is extremely patriotic. You'd think they'd be the last to do a whole program on how the moon landing was fake.
News Corp is one of the most amazingly opportunist organizations around. They run Fox News over here and a pro-communist channel in China. (Phoenix? Or maybe they sold it recently?)

Offline HxCeddie

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #18 on: Monday, February 26, 2007, 11:43:34 AM »
I love conspiracy theories so I find all this stuff about the truth movement interesting, but to be honest, just watch that South Park episode about how Kyle was behind the WTC destruction and that sums up my beliefs on it. I feel the government doesn't really care about this because they want to make people believe they are a lot more powerful than they are, when in fact, they had no control over what happend.

I someone already mentioned this, sorry, I didn't read the whole thread. I don't really believe all that crap, but conspiracy theories are always fascinating, no matter how far fetched they sound.

Offline gpw11

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #19 on: Monday, February 26, 2007, 05:47:23 PM »
Aparently the BBC was also in on it

Because, you know, then people would watch the news more.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #20 on: Monday, February 26, 2007, 07:58:12 PM »
I find most conspiracy theorists idiots because they ignore the obvious fallacies in their conspiracies and regard everyone who points them out as either ignorant or in on it. Plus lets just assume for a minute that they are right about 9/11 and our government did it to fight terrorists abroad. You'd think we would have had a better plan for war than this debacle that is happening now.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: I believe we've had this conversation before, but we're having it again
« Reply #21 on: Monday, February 26, 2007, 09:25:20 PM »
Lets just assume for a minute that they are right about 9/11 and our government did it to fight terrorists abroad. You'd think we would have had a better plan for war than this debacle that is happening now.
Hadn't thought of that one. Our government executed the 9/11 attacks flawlessly, but afterwards they can't remember if their scapegoats are supposed to be Sunni or Shi'a.