Topic: How the hell do people play FPSs with gamepads?

[idolminds]

Fanboy mode: ON

So I got myself the 360 pad to use on my PC. I've been actively searching for games to play with it. Mostly some platformers (Cave story), SNES emulation, and more recently N64 emulation (Zelda OOT with the cel-shade texture pack? Its like sex). Working like a charm, but still...I paid $40 for this thing, I want more!

Oh yeah, I've got Halo sitting here. I always heard it was better with the pad (since the mouse sensitivity is so ungodly low in that game...). Perfect, I really get to run it through its paces. I even go and look up the button config for the Xbox version and mirror that in my config.

After about 5 minutes of playing the only thing I can think is "How the FUCK do people play like this?"

Thats all. Specifics won't help in this explanation. It probably has something to do with my years of mouse/keyboard use and learning something different will be difficult, but I'm pretty sure its because this is the shittiest way to control a FPS ever.

I have new found respect for people that can really play a FPS on a gamepad, and at the same time I pity them even more. Theres a control method that is out there that allows you to control a FPS in such a natural and precise way and the only thing keeping you from using it is the arrogance of a console manufacturer (MS).

[iPPi]

No doubt.

It took me a while in order to get used to the gamepad to play an FPS game.  Even with a gamepad, it still feels clunky at times, and I would prefer keyboard and mouse.  But the gamepad does work.

[poomcgoo]

How the hell do people play FPSs with gamepads?

Very unhappily.  I love my 360, but every time I'm playing a shooting game of some sort I just wish I was using a mouse.  Gears is well done with the controller, and most people would go as far to say that the game wouldn't even play as well on a m/kb, but every time I play it I still wish I could use one.  I really don't see how it couldn't be better.

[NatchDan]

To me, it depends on the game. When I play Max Payne, I love the keys/mouse combo, but when I play Halo 2 on my mate's XBox then it feels perfect, to me.

[Quemaqua]

I'm perfectly capable of using a controller for FPS stuff, I just prefer a mouse and keyboard.  Still, I've learned how to do it and it isn't too bad.  But you'll never beat a mouse for precision control.

[Xessive]

I can relate to Idol.. I don't understand the incentive to play FPS with a gamepad. I know it's possible, it can be done, but the inaccuracy and pure bluntness of the controls are not worth it. The proof being that most games have to include an auto-aim feature to compensate for the loss of precision. Which is also the same reason they don't release FPS games where PC players can go head-to-head with console players.

As Chris Rock said "You can drive with your feet if you want to, it's just not a good fucking idea!"

[idolminds]

Oh, just wait! Shadowrun is going to do just that, and maybe even The Crossing.

While its possible to learn obviously, I sat here pondering whether its a skill I should even bother learning. On one hand...yeah, never know when I might find a console FPS interesting (recent example: Black). On the other hand, its probably not worth the aggravation. I'm going to always want a mouse. If I was to learn it I should probably choose something other than Halo to do it with because....its fucking Halo.

[Quemaqua]

Do you really find it that difficult to get used to?  I mean, I can understand not liking it as well, but I really don't find it particularly difficult, or even distracting when playing something I'm enjoying.  Would go mouse if I could, but if I can't I don't really worry all that much about it.

[idolminds]

I think I'm hard wired to mice. I can use a controller...I can walk around and look around, just with not much coordination. I cant track a target as it moves. Let alone if I'm moving. It's all more frustrating than fun.

Disclaimer: I still can load up Tribes, ski 100MPH one direction, track an enemy moving at 100MPH in another arbitrary direction, and still aim and fire off a mortar that will land on his head 5 second from now all in a split second. Halo with a controller I bump into walls.

[Quemaqua]

Disclaimer: I still can load up Tribes, ski 100MPH one direction, track an enemy moving at 100MPH in another arbitrary direction, and still aim and fire off a mortar that will land on his head 5 second from now all in a split second. Halo with a controller I bump into walls.

 

[Pugnate]

I have a question. Why don't they add a track ball censor thingee (I am not sure what it is called, but that thumb scrolling thing on laptops that substitutes for mice) to a gamepad?

Also I really want to get a 360 gamepad so that my cousins can play Vegas on my comp. They are allergic to keyboard/mice combos. Idol did you get a wireless controller? 

[Xessive]

I know I'm capable of playing with the analogue sticks, I just find extremely frustrating. Then come a few games that expect you to be able to land headshots. I can track a moving target, even when I'm moving, but it takes an unnecessarily enormous amount of focus. The gamepad takes away the joy of hand-eye coordination, and substitutes it with thumb-twitch-eye coordination.

I was playing Ghost In The Shell on my bro's PS2, and that game I could tolerate with the gamepad.. Even though it's pretty obvious I'd be a lot more efficient with a mouse.

A trackball on a gamepad might be better for control, but imagine having the problems we used to have with ball-mice, and how often you'd have to clean it.. The touchpad is kinda annoying to use to begin with (although it's less annoying than the mouse-sticks in some laptops). I use it when I have no other option, but ideally I'll attach a mouse to a laptop.

I've heard that the 360 and PS3 do support USB mice and keyboards. Haven't come across anyone who has used one though.

The way I see it, gamepads are for button mashing and games which don't rely heavily on aiming or any complex control scheme. Mouse+Keyboard is perfect for anything involving aiming or complex controls.

I wonder what aiming is like with the Wii..

[Pugnate]

The problem is that even though there is hardware, the designers aren't keeping it in mind when programming the game. From what I understand the response of those peripherals on the consoles is atrocious.

[Jedi]

but the inaccuracy and pure bluntness of the controls are not worth it

Personaly I'm just as accurate on the gamepad but when it comes to pulling off snipper shots, I'm far better on the analogue sticks than any mouse I've used.
I see where a lot of you are coming from though it took me an hour or 2 on Halo 2 to get used to a gamepad!

Edit - oops

[iPPi]

I don't find using the gamepad to be too difficult.  It took me a while to get used to it though, but since a lot of games, first and third person, shooters and non-shooters, use this dual analog system to move and look around, it's become fairly intuitive to use, and as a result, it is no longer difficult to play using a gamepad.

For a shooter though, it's still somewhat clunky, especially if you compare it to a keyboard and mouse.  But in the end, it's a viable alternative that actually works... not perfectly, but since your competition is using the same gamepad, it's an even playing field.

[beo]

i've gotten used to gamepads for fps's over the last 6 months or so, but yeah - they're plainly not as accurate as kb/m combos. i think the key to really getting better with them is learning their slow turning limitations and compensating. for example, in halo, you really need to use the radar *all* the time. if you happen to be facing the wrong way when someone opens fire on you, you've really got very little chance of 180-ing and getting a kill. if you ever want to get a headshot, it also helps if you can learn how to move your thumbs in *tiny* increments .

[Cobra951]

Keys are worse for movement than an analog stick.  But a mouse is infinitely better for look/aim than an analog stick.  A trackball would be a huge improvement, since it's a linear-response device like a mouse.  On a console, game design accounts for users being stuck with the (infinitely) inferior look/aim control.  Trying to adapt a mouse after the fact is not going to work very well.  The reverse, adapting a gamepad to PC FPS games, has the same problem, plus it's pointless.  I suppose if it's possible to map all the controls you need to the left side of the controller, then it might be interesting to double-fist it: controller in left hand, mouse in right.  Otherwise, I don't care how good or expnsive the gamepad is.  It would be a very poor substitute for the ideal, the mouse.

[MysterD]

Keyboard/mouse is just hard to beat with any shooters that use free-look/mouse-look.

[Jedi]

I just can't agree with when some say that the mouse is better form aiming. maybe for the run and gun stuff.. yeah it is, but for the head shot I love the analogue stick!
What's weird is when I went and used the PC to paly a game ( I think it was an RTS) but my brain when "whaa! a keyboard?!" for about 5 seconds. 

[MysterD]

I think the other thing is not just w/ the mouse itself, but look at the keyboard. There's so many damn keys there. And if the game is, well, full of lots and lots of commands, you can fill up a good portion of your keyboard w/ commands and hot keys. Many PC games utilize this KB big time. By the time you're done configuring your controls, you've pretty much set-up more than 50% of your keyboard.

That's sure a hell of a lot more keys than your regular console controller has.

[iPPi]

I think the other thing is not just w/ the mouse itself, but look at the keyboard. There's so many damn keys there. And if the game is, well, full of lots and lots of commands, you can fill up a good portion of your keyboard w/ commands and hot keys. Many PC games utilize this KB big time. By the time you're done configuring your controls, you've pretty much set-up more than 50% of your keyboard.

That's sure a hell of a lot more keys than your regular console controller has.

I can agree with that on a RPG or strategy game.

However, if a shooter has 347102571285714 different key commands, then the game is too fucking complicated to be playable.

[Cobra951]

MysterD:
Yes, correct for a lot of games.  That's why I said "if it's possible to map all the controls you need" for one-handed use on the controller--that's a pretty big "if".  The keyboard is the way to go when you have a ton of different things you can do at any moment.  Multiplexing stuff by making you press things twice, or hold down something while pressing something else, or even context-sensitive response, are all inferior alternatives forced by the limited number of buttons on controllers.

Jedi, are you being serious?  I often miss subtle attempts at humor.

[MysterD]

MysterD:
Yes, correct for a lot of games.  That's why I said "if it's possible to map all the controls you need" for one-handed use on the controller--that's a pretty big "if".  The keyboard is the way to go when you have a ton of different things you can do at any moment.

Agreed.

Multiplexing stuff by making you press things twice, or hold down something while pressing something else, or even context-sensitive response, are all inferior alternatives forced by the limited number of buttons on controllers.

Also agreed.

[MysterD]

I can agree with that on a RPG or strategy game.

However, if a shooter has 347102571285714 different key commands, then the game is too fucking complicated to be playable.

A shooter can't have that many keys to map on the KB? Why not?

What's wrong w/ complex shooters???

Should I go throw GRAW PC out the window b/c it's too tactical and has too many keys to map for every little command?!?!?!?

(I think not...)

[iPPi]

I didn't find GRAW to be a complicated shooter, I played it on the 360 and the controls were really easy to learn.  The most important thing about shooters is that the controls are not clunky.  Seriously, if every button on your keyboard is mapped to do something in a fast paced shooter I seriously think it becomes more of a problem than not. 

[idolminds]

Theres nothing wrong with complex shooters, but generally once you get over a certain number of buttons the fun factor drops. Of course that also depends on what the buttons are for.

Like you don't want this super complex FPS where you have a button for kick, grab, pull, reload, move(x4), fly, jump, crouch, prone, lean left, lean right, grenade, mine...blah blah where you need all of those at any given moment. However many of those can still be in a game as long as they arent a requirement for every battle. Like (my fave example) Tribes. Mines and grenades were there. Grenades I put somewhere close to throw in a fight, but mines were on a less used key because I only dropped them to trap an area. I also had 10 keys dedicated to different equipment loadouts...but I only needed those when I wanted to change my loadout. I wasnt constantly reaching for them.

So thats where a keyboard is nice. It allows for advanced functions in game, but doesn't mean playing it becomes more complex.

Analog stick...for headshots? Surely you jest.

[Jedi]

Jedi, are you being serious?  I often miss subtle attempts at humor.

Nah I'm serious for sniper action I perfer the analogue stick, I realised this on the weekend playing CoD3, but as I was writing that I did realise that without a lock on feature kb and mouse are better for run and gun action.

Analog stick...for headshots? Surely you jest.

Huh? Is it really that hard to believe? Unless you all think I'm talking about MP, that I can't comment on at this stage (I haven't MPed on the 360 yet).

[idolminds]

Does it lock to heads or something?

See my experience with headshots is all online. And part of it has to be the big difference between the speed of PC shooters and console shooters.  Console shooters are generally very slow compared to PC games, such as run speed, gravity, etc. Like there is no way to hit a headshot in Counter-Strike Source with a gamepad because people just move to quickly to track them accurately.

[MysterD]

Theres nothing wrong with complex shooters, but generally once you get over a certain number of buttons the fun factor drops. Of course that also depends on what the buttons are for.

Like you don't want this super complex FPS where you have a button for kick, grab, pull, reload, move(x4), fly, jump, crouch, prone, lean left, lean right, grenade, mine...blah blah where you need all of those at any given moment. However many of those can still be in a game as long as they arent a requirement for every battle.

Yeah, most FPS's have separate keys for reload, move(4x), jump, crouch, lean left, learn right, grenade. From FEAR to Call of Duty -- they all have them. Though, like you said -- you don't really "need" all of them, but they're there at your disposal.

Call of Duty would be the one using PRONE. I don't think all FPS's use that.
FEAR uses KICK key. Not many FPS's use that.
Dark Messiah has the SHOVE command -- though, that ain't an FPS....

Though, in Call of Duty, more than most games, that Lean Left and Lean Right REALLY got me through the game much easier than w/out using it.

So thats where a keyboard is nice. It allows for advanced functions in game, but doesn't mean playing it becomes more complex.

Agreed.

[Quemaqua]

All I have to say, Jedi, and I don't mean this as a personal insult in any way, is that if you're better at using a stick to make headshots than you are at using a mouse, you are absolutely the worst mouse user in the history of the world.  It's like saying you can better steer a small boat with a toothpick than with a set of oars.

[Pugnate]

*laughed at Que's analogy*

Jedi, that's pretty incredible. I am not saying that because I don't think it can be done, but because I can't do it. That's pretty awesome. Are you talking about using autoaim? Wait you said sniper rifle, so I doubt that has autoaim.

I think it is like people who are more efficient with chopsticks than knives and forks. I can't pick up sticky cotton candy with a chopstick, yet people eat intricate meals with it, and they find it is easier. So I guess it is a case of horses for courses.

All this talk of chopsticks now makes me want to order take out haha.

[iPPi]

My +5 to toothpick skills will pwn you.

[Quemaqua]

Well, I'm not saying it's odd that he's good with a controller because I know plenty of people that are, I'm saying it's odd that he finds the mouse unintuitive for the same function by comparison.

[Pugnate]

Yea sniping with a mousey is so natural.

Hey does anyone have a mouse with the DPI switching options? It is very useful, but I hardly ever use it. It is amazing when you are sniping with it, if you remember to use it.

[gpw11]

mousey

Never say that again.

[Jedi]

Well I never said I found the mouse unintuitive far from it. I'm old KB and Mouse user from way back and like I said for run and gun its better suited (unless the console game has auto aim like Crackdown does then it makes it waaaay easy). Its just on the weekend I found it really really easy to line up the heads with a sniper rifle in CoD3 and perfered the how the analogue stick felt.

Maybe I just shouldn't have said anything.

[Pugnate]

Maybe I just shouldn't have said anything.

hahaha you make it sound so bad.

Jedi at QuakeCon: I find sniping so much easier with the analog stick.

*gaming hall suddenly very quiet*

Fanboys: W T F DID YOU JUST SAY???

Jedi: *whimper*

[Xessive]

I suppose if it's possible to map all the controls you need to the left side of the controller, then it might be interesting to double-fist it: controller in left hand, mouse in right.  Otherwise, I don't care how good or expnsive the gamepad is.  It would be a very poor substitute for the ideal, the mouse.

That's how I used to play UT for a while. It works perfectly fine. Almost how I'd imagine the Wii controller to work when it's attached to the analogue stick part. Hmm, I should test out Oblivion that way, it already has Joypad controls along with KB+Mouse by default..

I think it was Bungie who ran a whole bunch of PC vs Xbox Halo matches just to see how the gameplay would fair. They had a bunch of testers play against each other, I think it was a 3 on 3 (3 on PC, 3 on Xbox). Then they'd swap places. No matter what, the PC players always won.

By the way has anyone ever tried a Laser mouse? They're supposed to be smoother and more accurate, but I have no idea.

EDIT:
HAhaha

[Quemaqua]

I haven't used anything other than an optical mouse in like... years now.  I find it very surprising you'd be unfamiliar with them.  It's been the standard for probably 6 years or something now.

[Pugnate]

I think he is talking about laser mice that are some new thing and not optical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_mouse