Author Topic: Oh crap, I completely forgot...  (Read 94926 times)

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #40 on: Tuesday, September 12, 2006, 09:38:37 AM »
It is a different age my friend. They just can't orchestrate something like 9/11 without trying to keep a gazillion people quiet.

I liked the consipracy theory in the second season of 24.

(click to show/hide)

I don't think it was a conspiracy though. Too many people involved.

You know what always bothers me though? The whole anthrax in the mail thing. That was one of the weirdest unsolved things ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #41 on: Tuesday, September 12, 2006, 05:49:05 PM »
Yeah, I'm going with nutzo on that one too.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Raisa

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #42 on: Tuesday, September 12, 2006, 11:44:06 PM »
Even if the US had nothing to do with it, they still had a big part in giving Bin Laden the skills to hurt the US.

Whoever it was had a sick sense of humor.
Taken.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #43 on: Wednesday, September 13, 2006, 03:08:29 AM »
Yea well it is a strange coincidence that they trained both Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden to do war, and then eventually they both became enemies to the USA.

Saddam was trained to help fight against Iran while Bin Laden was to fight against the Russians in Afghanistan.

Offline scottws

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #44 on: Wednesday, September 13, 2006, 05:50:32 AM »
Yeah, but I think that's just politics.  We had "interests" (at least politically) in fighting the Russians and Iranians in those cases.  Later, our interests were different.

Politics suck.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #45 on: Wednesday, September 13, 2006, 07:05:03 AM »
Yea well it is a strange coincidence that they trained both Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden to do war, and then eventually they both became enemies to the USA.

Saddam was trained to help fight against Iran while Bin Laden was to fight against the Russians in Afghanistan.
That's true. In fact Osama was trained under the CIA. That's kinda why I'm going with the conspiracy. Besides that if Al-Qaeda did in fact commit the WTC incident, then they woulda announced it and taken credit for it. That's generally what they do. I'm not siding with Al-Qaeda, I just don't believe they exclusively did it. I'm just saying there seems to be a lot more evidence supporting US government involvement.

In all fairness, I can't really place any judgement on this matter, considering it's not my country or anything involving me whatsoever. Still, I feel a lot of sympathy for the victims.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #46 on: Wednesday, September 13, 2006, 11:07:04 PM »
The world sucks and we're all going to hell.  Might as well enjoy shooting each other while we have the opportunity, right?

 ...

Sorry, I'm drunk.  And full of anger.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Ace_O_Spades

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #47 on: Thursday, September 14, 2006, 01:45:39 AM »
The world sucks and we're all going to hell.  Might as well enjoy shooting each other while we have the opportunity, right?

 ...

Sorry, I'm drunk.  And full of anger.

This would be kinda fun... there's a few people in the world I wouldn't mind "disappearing"

I mean... sunshine and kittens and all that...
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Offline Pugnate

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #48 on: Thursday, September 14, 2006, 02:50:07 AM »
That's true. In fact Osama was trained under the CIA. That's kinda why I'm going with the conspiracy. Besides that if Al-Qaeda did in fact commit the WTC incident, then they woulda announced it and taken credit for it. That's generally what they do. I'm not siding with Al-Qaeda, I just don't believe they exclusively did it. I'm just saying there seems to be a lot more evidence supporting US government involvement.

In all fairness, I can't really place any judgement on this matter, considering it's not my country or anything involving me whatsoever. Still, I feel a lot of sympathy for the victims.

Well in the case of Osama, he wasn't especially trained. It wasn't as if they grabbed Osama and said "This guy can do some wild shit."

He was the one of many volunteers from over the world trained to fight against the Russian invasion.

Saddam's case is far more interesting though. He was especially trained in things like torture, information extraction etc.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #49 on: Thursday, September 14, 2006, 05:59:32 AM »
Osama was trained as an operative. However, Saddam was trained in brutality! From a fairly young age they started him off with killing small animals.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #50 on: Thursday, September 14, 2006, 12:37:00 PM »
Until one day he realized how wrong it was, and killed his masters. He then went to Gotham City where Bruce Wayne took him under his wing and he became the new batgirl!

Offline Ace_O_Spades

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #51 on: Thursday, September 14, 2006, 01:00:03 PM »
hahaha

makes perfect sense!!
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Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #52 on: Thursday, September 14, 2006, 01:20:12 PM »
Until one day he realized how wrong it was, and killed his masters. He then went to Gotham City where Bruce Wayne took him under his wing and he became the new batgirl!

 ;D  Awesome.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Xessive

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #53 on: Thursday, September 14, 2006, 02:35:47 PM »
haha man, Cassandra Cain is awesome and hot!

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #54 on: Thursday, September 14, 2006, 09:13:14 PM »
haha that was pretty much Cassandra Cain's story. I guess her and Saddam chose different paths.

Too bad she isn't batgirl anymore. That's the problem with comics... they change stuff around too much.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #55 on: Friday, September 15, 2006, 06:52:27 AM »
haha that was pretty much Cassandra Cain's story. I guess her and Saddam chose different paths.

Too bad she isn't batgirl anymore. That's the problem with comics... they change stuff around too much.
What? What happened? She left to become the head of the assassin's guild?

Sorry guys, this really went off on a wild tangent :P

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #56 on: Friday, September 15, 2006, 11:19:51 AM »
I don't know, it happened after I stopped reading Batman... which was years ago.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #57 on: Friday, September 15, 2006, 12:55:20 PM »
You guys are gonna pin me as a mad conspiracy theorist, but I believe that the US government orchestrated that attack. I see a lot of similarities with the Reichstag fire, which incidentally led to Germany's change from democracy to dictatorship, consequently initiating Hitler's rise to power. My point is that no one really knows who started the fire, but the communists were the 'usual suspect.'

The fact that so many people, especially Americans, actually buy into the conspiracies, which are complete bullshit, still baffles me. Especially the one about the rocket hitting the Pentagon. Where the fuck did all the people go? To neverland? Plus they say that it justifies us going to war. Trust me, if we want to go to war, we will, no matter what anyone says. I mean, the UN disagreed with us going into Iraq, and we basically said "fuck off". Not to mention the fact that, if this was some huge conspiracy to justify the war on terror, you would think that we would have a better plan. Hell, we used Saddam as a tool to forget the fact that we can't get Osama.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #58 on: Friday, September 15, 2006, 01:16:38 PM »
The fact that so many people, especially Americans, actually buy into the conspiracies, which are complete bullshit, still baffles me. Especially the one about the rocket hitting the Pentagon. Where the fuck did all the people go? To neverland? Plus they say that it justifies us going to war. Trust me, if we want to go to war, we will, no matter what anyone says. I mean, the UN disagreed with us going into Iraq, and we basically said "fuck off". Not to mention the fact that, if this was some huge conspiracy to justify the war on terror, you would think that we would have a better plan. Hell, we used Saddam as a tool to forget the fact that we can't get Osama.
Perhaps, I mean anything is plausible nowadays. Regradless a "War on Terror" is a retarded concept. You can't challenge complex ideologies and abstract concepts physically! It's like having a "War on Hate" you can't fight ideas with bullets!!

My idea of what the US gov't should do is deal with its own issues and specific threats to itself. Afterall it's not the world police. They need to focus on the American people for change.

Offline scottws

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #59 on: Friday, September 15, 2006, 02:09:53 PM »
My idea of what the US gov't should do is deal with its own issues and specific threats to itself. Afterall it's not the world police. They need to focus on the American people for change.
Well, there really wasn't a "war on terror" until a bunch of fanatical people decided to kill thousands of Americans by smashing our planes into things. Remember that.

Yeah, I realize these were supposedly retalitory strikes for our evil country stepping foot on the holy soil of Saudi Arabia, but the point stands that we were not truly at war with anyone in the Middle East (except Saddam, I guess) until 9/11 happened.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #60 on: Friday, September 15, 2006, 07:56:29 PM »
Well, there really wasn't a "war on terror" until a bunch of fanatical people decided to kill thousands of Americans by smashing our planes into things. Remember that.

Yeah, I realize these were supposedly retalitory strikes for our evil country stepping foot on the holy soil of Saudi Arabia, but the point stands that we were not truly at war with anyone in the Middle East (except Saddam, I guess) until 9/11 happened.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for justified retaliation. The US would have every right to strike back at anyone who trangresses on it, but solid proof needs to be provided. In the case of Iraq, the whole point of going into Iraq was the US gov't supposedly had evidence of the presence and production of weapons of mass destruction. No weapons or evidence of the production of such weapons were ever found. The gov't then claims it was because of faulty intelligence. The fact that they would go to a fullscale war over flimsy information is completely reckless. Especially when you think of the finances that go into funding a war. If I were a US citizen I'd be pretty pissed off with my gov't.

Offline scottws

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #61 on: Friday, September 15, 2006, 08:28:04 PM »
Oh yeah, the Iraq thing is BS

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #62 on: Friday, September 15, 2006, 09:39:01 PM »
When the attacks on Afghanistan first happened, my grandfather and I were talking about the legacy of America rebuilding nations in the past.

We talked about mainly Japan and Germany, how those places after being annihilated were rebuilt -- partly with their own resources -- into the superpowers they are today.

If they hadn't been helped, they would still be poor and probably a homeground for disgruntled 'terrorists' attacking the US even today.

It has been America's legacy in the past to help rebuild what it has destroyed. This has served two purposes. Firstly the country itself has become self reliant and the world opinion of the US of A has been favorable because of. Secondly as I mentioned, a country with a world class economy is unlikely to breed terrorists.

The US of A should have finished the job in Afghanistan and then helped rebuild it. This current government is very sloppy. It should take example from the past.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #63 on: Friday, September 15, 2006, 10:49:09 PM »
I was thinking about that too, pug. Japan is a great example. We NUKED Japan. Yet here we are, 60 years later and the US and Japan seem to love one another. Its pretty mazing when you think about it.

Offline Ace_O_Spades

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #64 on: Saturday, September 16, 2006, 04:30:19 AM »
I think comparing post-war Japan, or post-war Germany, to post-war Afghanistan is foolhardy

Those were developed nations... Afghanistan was a massive pile of shit before we went in and turned it into a broken pile of shit... then we say "OK, now you need to be all nice.. and stuff"

It's the same philosophy as contemporary prisons. Stick someone in an environment with other fucked up antisocial racist hatemongers who are also highly adept at criminal enterprise, then be all shocked when they come out the other end of the system uncured. Then we are shocked by the recidivism rates.

Fuck.
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Offline gpw11

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #65 on: Sunday, September 17, 2006, 03:59:06 PM »
I have to agree with Kams...it's not nearly the same situation.  Japan and Germany already had strong industrial economies going into World War 2.  Japan was already an Asian power and Germany was already a European power (we're talking post-Weimar Republic here, after the Nazi's kickstarted shit).  Beyond that, both countries already had economic and cultural philosphies in line with America and the western world for the most part.  The rebuilding, restructuring, and promotion of the economies of these two countries post war is a much easier task than doing the same thing in any middle eastern country.

There's a reason Japan's recovery was called the "Post-War Economic Miracle".  It's never happened before or since.  It's not even an issue of America helping to rebuild a former enemy...it's much more complicated than that.  American contributions were mainly Cold-War posturing, keep Japan an ally and in good economic health and it could be an area of asia whcih could be used to fight off communists.  Yet the major american contribution to Japan was when, during the Korean war, Japan was used to procure military gear.  It counted for more then 25% of Japan's exports at that time.  That was a huge kickstart.

Most academics agree, however, that the major componenent of Japan's recovery wasn't from foreign aid or investment, but rather from the push of Japanese working culture to promote their economy.  Factory workers, coporite entities, consumers, and government beaurcrats all banded together make sure that the primary goal for each of these groups was to stabilise and then promote growth.
Corporations and industry focussed on employment before profit, and banks focussed on long term stability over demanding interest payments (they'd overlend and then have to borrow from the national bank).  After the economy stablilised Japan focussed on becoming an export powerhouse.  They locked foreign products out of their markets and shipped their products out in massive numbers.  The end result was the japanese working culture becoming what it was from the 60's until the early 90's...a raging economy with an postive balance of trade. 

With Germany (or more specifically West Germany) direct Amercian involvement was a much bigger contribution cosidering the European Recovery Program.  Nevertheless, that doesn't change the fact that the infastructre was already there, the culture was accepting of Western ideals (a large part of West Germany's recovery is attributed to the phenomenon of the Protestant Work Ethic), and a very large portion of Europe was also devastated from the war, leading to a level of international trade co-operation the world hadn't seen up to that point in modern history.

I'm not saying that America didn't play a large part in either of these recoveries...they did.  All I'm saying is that it's very likely it couldn't be repeated in this situation.  Neither Iraq or Afghanistan have the level of development neccesary, nor do they have the industry itself, the trade opportunities, or (probably most importantly) the same basic economic culture that Japan and Germany shared with America and their neighbours.    It's a different type of society, and as such it would be much harder to industrialize from outside...espcially since the people may or may not be willing to co-operate.  Just because we believe that a heavily industrialized society is neccesary for prosperity and happyness doesn't mean that we'll be succesfull projecting those values onto others.

 

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #66 on: Sunday, September 17, 2006, 09:21:36 PM »
Yea I never thought of it that way, it makes a bit more sense.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #67 on: Monday, September 18, 2006, 10:15:46 AM »
I agree that the situations can't be compared, the circumstances are too different. However I think what Pug was trying to say earlier is that the US gov't should take responsibility somehow, and it should be more considerate of the consequences of its actions. Going haphazardly into war isn't exactly a good idea.

In general I don't think the Iraqis (or any other Arabs for that matter) want anything to do with the US gov't, or have US troops romping around. They just want the US to make amends, do some damage control, and leave.

That reminds me: Egypt has been in a bit of a conflict with itself because the Egyptian gov't completely contradicts with the Egyptian people. The Egyptian gov't currently officially supports the US gov't (including its stance in the recent Lebanon crisis), but the Egyptian people are in an uproar about it. They want the gov't to focus on its people, and support its fellow Arab states.

The US activities in our side of the world haven't exactly boosted the US image. Given their track record, they come off as the 'bad guys' nowadays.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #68 on: Monday, September 18, 2006, 10:33:32 AM »
However I think what Pug was trying to say earlier is that the US gov't should take responsibility somehow, and it should be more considerate of the consequences of its actions. Going haphazardly into war isn't exactly a good idea.

Hahahaha. Not laughing at that, but just the fact that the last thing that this administration, at least in it's current form, would ever do is admit that it did wrong. I completley agree that they should take responsibility, but unfortunatley it takes an adult to admit that they did wrong, and our current president is a child that does no wrong.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #69 on: Monday, September 18, 2006, 10:36:05 AM »
Hahahaha. Not laughing at that, but just the fact that the last thing that this administration, at least in it's current form, would ever do is admit that it did wrong. I completley agree that they should take responsibility, but unfortunatley it takes an adult to admit that they did wrong, and our current president is a child that does no wrong.
Hehe Curious George does have his flaws :P But yeah I get you, there'd be too much pride and credibility at stake for them to come forward after all they'd already done.

Offline scottws

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #70 on: Monday, September 18, 2006, 10:50:36 AM »
The US activities in our side of the world haven't exactly boosted the US image. Given their track record, they come off as the 'bad guys' nowadays.
No offense, but there are many Americans that feel the same way about the entire Middle East.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #71 on: Monday, September 18, 2006, 12:17:35 PM »
No offense, but there are many Americans that feel the same way about the entire Middle East.
I know, and I'm not denying anything, but in contrast Middle Eastern Gov'ts aren't sending military expeditions out to the US. Any attacks or terrorist activities going on are not "official" and do not represent the majority of the people. In the case of the US, it's the United States Government that's moving in, and is also funding and supporting the Israeli regime which is actually terrorist. Under ideal circumstances governments represent their people. As an Arab I know better than to blame people or associate them with their government's activities. It would be ignorant to judge people by the minority.

No offence to anyone intended ofcourse, but the fact is that the average American is oblivious to our cultures. The general assumption is that all Arabs hate America, all Arabs are barbaric terrorists, and all Arabs undermine and beat women. I don't blame the average American though, I would criticize the education system. I noted several differences in the average education we receive in the Middle East and the average education in North America. In our schools we had to learn about the US; we didn't have to memorize all the states or all the presidents, but we had to study general American history and American social studies. In contrast, American schools don't teach much beyond OPEC and the Oil Embargo when it comes to the Middle East.

My point is that Arabs don't hold average people responsible for the US gov't actions, they hold the US gov't responsible.

Offline Ace_O_Spades

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #72 on: Monday, September 18, 2006, 01:43:07 PM »
No offense, but there are many Americans that feel the same way about the entire Middle East.

This is the root of the problem... cultural insecurity mixed with xenophobia... mixed with almost complete ignorance of other cultures and their peoples.

The ENTIRE middle east includes states like the UAE who are by and large allies of the USA.
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Offline Xessive

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #73 on: Monday, September 18, 2006, 02:57:55 PM »
This is the root of the problem... cultural insecurity mixed with xenophobia... mixed with almost complete ignorance of other cultures and their peoples.

The ENTIRE middle east includes states like the UAE who are by and large allies of the USA.
Exactly, there are several nations in the Middle East (specifically in the Arabian Gulf) that are allied with US, with the notion of prosperity and development. In my eyes it's the politics that screw everything up.

Offline scottws

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #74 on: Monday, September 18, 2006, 05:26:00 PM »
This is the root of the problem... cultural insecurity mixed with xenophobia... mixed with almost complete ignorance of other cultures and their peoples.

The ENTIRE middle east includes states like the UAE who are by and large allies of the USA.
I totally disagree that this is the root of the problem.  A problem?  Sure, I can accept that.  But the root cause?  No fucking way.

Offline Ace_O_Spades

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #75 on: Monday, September 18, 2006, 06:39:54 PM »
I totally disagree that this is the root of the problem.  A problem?  Sure, I can accept that.  But the root cause?  No fucking way.

why not offer a constructive alternative then?
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Offline scottws

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #76 on: Monday, September 18, 2006, 08:59:14 PM »
Well, for starters, we wouldn't even be having this conversation if a handful of Middle Easterners didn't fly several planes into inanimate objects containing people, a majority of which were civilians.

But that's just one event, if possibly the most visible.  Others include blowing up subway trains in Spain, again containing mostly civilians.  And blowing up subway trains and busses in the UK, containing - guess what... civilians.  And blowing themselves up at wedding parties.  And being caught attempting to do similar things since.

Americans would be indifferent to the Middle East if this stuff didn't happen.  I honestly held no ill will or predjudice against the Middle Easterners until 9/11 and similar events that have happened since. 

Offline beo

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #77 on: Tuesday, September 19, 2006, 05:39:42 AM »
the people who blew up the trains in the UK were all british.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #78 on: Wednesday, September 20, 2006, 03:19:47 PM »
The ENTIRE middle east includes states like the UAE who are by and large allies of the USA.

...along with states like Iran who fund terrorist activities and develop nuclear weapons in spite of world demands. I don't think that anyone is worried about the UAE.

I'm 100% with Scott on this one. This isn't about cultural ignorance, it's about not getting blown up by some maniac strapped with bombs for the sake of being with 71 virgins (or whatever the number is).

Offline Xessive

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Re: Oh crap, I completely forgot...
« Reply #79 on: Wednesday, September 20, 2006, 05:39:17 PM »
I agree that nobody wants to be blown up by some maniac. And it's pretty clear that not all bomb-weilding maniacs are Middle-Eastern.

Iran supports Hizbullah, and Hizbullah is not a terrorist organization, as I've stated repeatedly in the past. The US backs Israel, which on our side of the world is a massive terrorist organization. Equally, in spite of world demands the US proceeded into Iraq, among several other contraversial operations.

Personally, I don't see a problem with Iran having nuclear capability, considering the US and Israel already have nuclear weapons. It's only fair to have an equal force on the opposite side to maintain a balance of arms. Aside from that Iran wouldn't develop weapons just to launch them and start a chain reaction of mutually assured destruction. They certainly wouldn't nuke Israel, rendering the region uninhabitable. The objective is to retrieve the land, not obliterate it.

Regardless, I think the only reason the US and Israel don't want Iran to have nuclear capability is simply a matter of control. Iran gaining the technology would open up doors for the rest of the Middle-East to develop, and that means the US and Israel would no longer have the upper hand.

As for the matter of cultural ignorance and education, that's how certain governments maintain the support of the people. Let the people know only what you want them to know, and they'll back you. How else will you ensure a steady stream of funds and support?

For example, most of you guys easily support Israel and consider Hizbullah terrorists. That's only based on what you've been allowed to know. It's easy to believe whatever your gov't tells you about something that's happening so far away.

The fact is Israel, Iraq, Iran, and Hizbullah are all on the other side of the world, everything is happening on our side of the world. We're in it, we live it everyday, and we're telling you who's who, but you don't listen. You can't make judgements on something you know next to nothing about. You're allowed to comment, everyone's entitled to their own opinion ofcourse. Just as equally we have no right to make judgements about North American domestic affairs.

Your tax dollars have gone to funding wars all over the Middle-East, and developing weapons in Israel, but you don't question it. Now that's something you can make judgements about: your own administration. I mean they literally bombed Afghanistan back to the stone-age, and it was somewhat acceptable because it was considered retaliatory. That's fine, now what does the US want with the rest of the ME?

Following WW2, the US initiated activities in the Middle-East commonly related to the Cold War. They inserted their agents Afghanistan to fend of Russia, and in Iraq to fend off Iran. They created their monsters in our world for whatever agenda they had planned. We (Middle-Easterners) never asked for war, we never made any special requests for foreign invaders, and we have been pleading for many years to end the madness. But apparently we are just a bunch of savage beasts who need to be tamed or killed.

EDIT:
Ok, I just read over the post and I sound kinda agressive.. Sorry about that, I was just in a heated argument with someone and it must have carried over. My bad. My points are still there though :P
« Last Edit: Wednesday, September 20, 2006, 05:59:39 PM by Xessive »