Topic: Metal Gear Solid thread + a question.

[Quemaqua]

Okay, so since I'm playing through the MGS games both again and for the first time depending on the title, I thought I'd start a thread just so everybody could either reminisce or say they thought the game sucked or whatever.  I missed a lot of discussion about these when they were really new and popular just because I was super sick of stealth games at the time.  I couldn't manage to get through MGS2 and wasn't interested in MGS3, but now that it's been about 5 years since I've really played one, I'm ravenous for them again.  In fact, I'm considering going through all of them in one fell swoop.  I mean, I've sort of started already.

Which brings me to my question.  Is it worth getting MGS3: Subsistence as opposed to the original?  I was reading around and some people seem to think that because of the new camera, the game is just gobs better.  I'm hoping most people say no, but reviewers didn't seem to think so.  Anyway, if possible I'd like to save the money on it just because I plan to get Portable Ops soon (apparently Metal Gear is another one of those games that feels really at home for me on a handheld, as I'm going through MGS on my PSP right now and totally loving it).  However, if the game is really *that* much better, I can probably find it used for twenty bucks or something.  How are the extra features and crap on it?

[scottws]

The only MGS I've ever played was Sons of Libery.  It was a fair game, but I loathed the 30-minute nonsensical cutscenes and impossible story.  I also didn't like how after the initial part with Snake on the ship the game seemed to start over and even went through another tutorial, refamiliarizing you with your codec and controls.  It really took you out of the flow.

Oh yeah and Raiden.  Naked.  'Nuff said.

[HxCeddie]

Yeah, MGS 2 was disappointing, but goddamn was Snake Eater awesome. One of the best stories I've ever seen in a game, and it has one of the best boss fights ever in a game (the battle with The End was awesome!). Don't even hesitate if you have a chance to play it.

Also, because Snake Eater is a prequel, maybe you should play that first?

[Quemaqua]

Also, because Snake Eater is a prequel, maybe you should play that first?

Eh, I already know most of the general story from all the games, just not specifics.  I'd rather play them in order due to the way the game mechanics have evolved.

The only MGS I've ever played was Sons of Libery.  It was a fair game, but I loathed the 30-minute nonsensical cutscenes and impossible story.

The story might have been a lot less impossible if you'd -- I don't know, played the first game beforehand?

[idolminds]

This kinda sucks. MGS2 on PC run all right, but I kinda want to get the PS2 version, and then MGS3...play them all on one console.

And I need to track down a PS1 memory card to save in MGS1. Fuck Sony was stupid in not allowing PS2 cards to hold PS1 saves. How easy to format a small section of the PS2 card and then emulate the thing? Come on!

[TheOtherBelmont]

I still don't get a lot of the complaints about Metal Gear Solid 2, yeah Raiden wasn't as cool as Snake, but that doesn't mean the game sucked, it was still loads of fun.  Also, Que you should get Subsistence, all the extra stuff is worth it, plus its been out for awhile so its probably almost the same price as the original and if its more expensive its probably only more by 5 or 10 bucks.  With all that being said I enjoyed MGS 3 more than I did MGS2, but I think it had to do with the story content, which you'll appreciate more Que since you've played the original NES Metal Gear.

[sirean_syan]

If it's not much more expensive, then I'd say get Subsistence. However, if not, then I say you're fine with your current original copy. I played through the initial release just fine and I'd say you'll be fine unless you actually start messing with Subsistence. The camera's great, but you really don't notice it unitl you have it if you're used to Metal Gear games (and you really should be if you're going through them in one fell swoop).... then again, that might be the edge that'll take you through the third game because you're probably going to be pushing yourself by the point you start MGS3. I love the games, but that's a lot of game anyway you look at it.

[Quemaqua]

Indeed.  Especially considering I'm going to be tackling Acid simultaneous to this while I'm away from my home systems.  Still, I'm nearly done with MGS already, and word has it MGS2 isn't that much longer, and since I've started it already and done the opening area and junk I think I'll be all right.  I guess I'll just wait and see if I find a nice cheap copy of Subsistence.  If I don't, then I won't sweat it.

Thanks for the advice, kids.  I'm going to go back to beating my head against the wall trying to get FF7 to emulate since apparently no PC patches properly fix the PC version, and since apparently I can't clean my fucking PS2 properly even after opening the damned thing up.  Arg.

[scottws]

The story might have been a lot less impossible if you'd -- I don't know, played the first game beforehand?

No, I don't think so.  I'm referring to those guys running the world (the Sons of Liberty) that they reveal

(click to show/hide)

died 100 years prior.

  I mean when I saw that, I was like WTF that makes no sense.  If they explain that in the first one, then I apologize.  I've heard plenty of die-hard MGS fans complain that the story doesn't piece together at all.

And since when is it a requirement to have played the other games to judge its story anyway?  I had no trouble with Silent Hill 3 without playing the first one.

[Xessive]

I heard that the GameCube got Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes which basically a remake of the original MGS with new cinematics and graphics on par with MGS2. I would totally play that! Hell if it came to PC I'd buy it!

[gpw11]

Idol, go MGS2 on console for sure. 

I first played it on the PC, and loved it.  Perhaps so much so that I ignored the drawbacks.  It's not a good port.  It runs alright and the higher resolution is fucking fanstastic (swearing for emphasis on how much of a difference it makes with this game), but the little things are a bit of a bitch.  The control scheme might be better now that you can use an xbox pad or whatnot, but at the time I kind of remember it being a bitch...especially since it didn't reckognize analog button presses and such.  The main thing is the lack of ATI support.  I reinstalled it a while ago, and since I had upgraded to an ati card the game was messed up.  I installed the patch and it was ok, but it was half-assed.  I think the VR missions still didn't work with ati or something. Wasn't impressed so I went out and bought it for xbox for like $20.

As for Scott's comments, having played the first one I pretty much agree.  Most of the problems with MGS2s plot have nothing to do with it being connected to the first one and Scott's lack of knowledge on that game, but just that it's overly convoluted and the end just kind of goes off the deep end.  Like a game verison of 2001: a Space Odysee.

[K-man]

If you're just interested in playing the game and have no interest in owning the "definitive" version of it then the original should be fine.  However, being a huge Metal Gear fan since the 80's, it was more than worthy of picking up for me personally.  To me, having the original versions of Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2 (and not the shitty NES port of Metal Gear and Snakes Revenge) was more than worth the price of admission.

Twin Snakes on the Cube looked awesome.  However, they revamped some of the dialogue and the cutscenes looked like something out of a John Woo movie.  Even with the graphical upgrade I still prefer the PS original.

And yeah, Metal Gear Solid 2 had even me going "WTF?" at the end.  Has nothing to do with the first game.

[idolminds]

Heh, uninstalled MGS2. It looks freaking amazing at high res, but...crappy port like gpw said. There is apparently no way to gracefully exit the program. If I hit "ESC" it tries to go to the desktop, but fails and shows me a frozen screen for 10 minutes while it sorts its shit or something. Alt-F4 isnt much better. Best way to quit is alt-tab and kill the process.

Other than that it worked ok-ish. With the XBCD 360 drivers I got everything set up on my gamepad, analog sticks, and even rumble. No pressure sensitive stuff...but thems the breaks. I hear it isnt that important. With the patch the graphics fixed themselves up as well.

So yeah, going console. Hopefully I can find copies of the Substance editions of both MGS2 and 3. Also probably going PS2 instead of Xbox for no reason in particular.

[gpw11]

I seem to remember lack of analog buttons being a bit of a pain since that was the only way to put down your gun once you pulled it on someone (release slowly).  There's a different button you can assign to that, but it killed me at least a few times and cost me a lot of dog tags.

[idolminds]

Yeah, that could be a pain. I ended up having to unequip the weapon when I didnt want to fire.

[sirean_syan]

Substance really didn't make that big of a deal with MGS2. There were the whole Virtual Mission things, but if you're just in it for the game then you can stand to miss those.

[Xessive]

Idol, I have the same 'exiting' problem with most Japanese origin games.. Devil May Cry 3 SE, Dynasty Warriors 4 Hyper, even Biohazard 4 (Resident Evil 4, although it did have an actual EXIT button).. I figured an easy way to exit with no hassle.. I save, do what I want, then end with a swift Alt+F4.. Quits right to desktop, no problems. Actually I did that with Jade Empire too!

[Quemaqua]

Well scott, I guess the plot's even weirder than I imagined, but I still can't understand why anyone would play a sequel without playing the predecessor.  That makes no sense to me whatsoever in most circumstances, especially in something that's really heavy on plot.  Tied together strictly or not, I can't imagine it hurting to have played the first.  You'd certainly have enjoyed the introductory area a lot more since it's directly related to the original game.

So I've been looking up stuff on 3... the Limited Edition of MGS3:S sells for like as much as freaking Panzer Dragoon Saga.  What the fuck is with that crap?  As I can recall, the only extra thing you get with it is the DVD that re-edits all the cinematics into a 3 hour movie, and the original Subsistence already gives you the demo theater where you can watch all the movies.  Why the hell would you pay $150 - $250 for that?  Jeezus.  The game isn't even that old!  I can understand people wanting a decent price, but that just seems crazy to me when there's so little that's special about the LE.  I'll bet you can download the movie online by now anyway.

Anyway, I also found this, which seems kind of interesting.  Anybody checked it out?  I suspect it's unnecessary since I got the digital graphic novel thing for my PSP (which I guess unlocks a timeline and all kinds of stuff after you do the little puzzle game thing it comes with), but it still looks like it could be neat.

So I guess I'm going to track down Subsistence first and then get Portable Ops after the fact since I can't afford both at once and Portable Ops is the sequel to MGS3.  Fortunately I get an extra paycheck in June, so I should be all set.

[sirean_syan]

That collectors DVD was a bonus you got if you preordered MGS3:Subsistence from EB/Gamestop. It's actually pretty cool since it's a rundown of the whole series along with interviews with Kojima along the way. It's not worth $20, but it was a cool way to catch up with the series when game came out. I've got it if you want to see it one day. As I recall, it's not that long so it's easy to watch.

[Quemaqua]

Well, it looks like I won't be getting Subsistence.  You can't find it in stores, period.  I called every single store I know that claimed to have stock online, and absolutely none of them had it, except one place.  And it was one of the shitty ones without original case and instructions, so fuck that.

It's amazing how much gaming retail sucks now.  You can't find a fucking thing.  What the hell is happening?  Used to be if you wanted an older game it was easy as pie to get.  It'd be cheaper and you knew there'd be at least a place or two that had it.  Now you can't even find super-huge blockbuster titles once they get a little dated.  It's horrendous.  This must be a conscious effort on the part of *someone* to drive more consumers online.  It has to be.

[scottws]

What about eBay?

[gpw11]

Dude.....rental chains.  It'll be used (although some do carry new games), and it won't be exactly cheap, but whatever pricing scheme they have doesn't take into account the value of a used game in the wild.  If it's $100+ on the internet you can bet it'll be $40 or under at a rental chain store.  They just need to clear that shelf space.

[sirean_syan]

Rental chains barely exist around here anymore. More than a few Blockblusters have closed in the past few years... I can't even think of a rental place around here anymore now that I think about it.

And yeah, I really don't get what's happening to the gaming market in the past year. It's actually even gotten difficult to find these games new online, and after a year you have to give up on used stuff as well. It's pretty insane really.

[idolminds]

So I grabbed both MGS2 and MGS3 today for PS2. MGS2 is regular edition since thats all they had. I decided to spend a little more than get the Substance version of MGS3. I also picked up a cheap PSX memory card so I can save in MGS1.

[Quemaqua]

Well, I have to tell you, I am so in love with this franchise now it isn't even funny.  I've been playing the living crap out of Metal Gear Acid, and I'm so beyond impressed.  It's just so freaking fun!  I don't know that I can unequivocally say that I like it better than straight-up MGS gameplay, but it's definitely a tie at least.  Whereas in MGS you get the satisfaction inherent to swiftly maneuvering and getting the job done with a sense of fluidity and even style if you pull it off right, with Acid you get the satisfaction of truly watching a well-planned course of action take shape and bear fruit.  And getting beaten back is much more interesting in Acid because things don't just fall apart in this rapid chain of death.  I mean, that can happen, but it's all so much slower.  You get to watch as your plan fails, and watch the little avenues come and go that could either save you or make things worse.  It's incredibly satisfying, and the card battle stuff, which I normally don't care for all that much, just works beautifully.  There's this great sense of randomness to everything that keeps you tense and sometimes makes you move really slow while you wait for the right moment, but it also lets you move around within this framework to try and get the best out of what you've got and work things to your advantage.  I just can't say enough for Metal Gear Acid right now.  If you have a PSP, love Metal Gear, and love strategic stuff, you have to try this.  It's amazingly fun.  The story isn't bad, either.  It's sort of... well, really bizarre right now, but it's entertaining.  Not up to snuff production-wise, and some of the dialogue is a bit odd, but I'm still rather curious as to what's going to happen, and it's got some nice artwork and music to back it up.  The gameplay is definitely the star of the show, but I suspect the story will get more interesting as it goes.

So... yeah.  Go play it if you have the opportunity.

[scottws]

Well scott, I guess the plot's even weirder than I imagined, but I still can't understand why anyone would play a sequel without playing the predecessor.  That makes no sense to me whatsoever in most circumstances, especially in something that's really heavy on plot.  Tied together strictly or not, I can't imagine it hurting to have played the first.  You'd certainly have enjoyed the introductory area a lot more since it's directly related to the original game.

I didn't have a PSX, nor a PSX memory card to use on a PS2.  Sure, I could have bought one, but the thought of buying one simply for one game left a bad taste in my mouth.

There was a lot of buzz around MGS2, and I'm not the type of person that will not let myself experience something just because I missed out on something earlier.  I mean I missed out on the first few episodes of Heroes, but I still enjoy all the episodes I've seen since.

[Quemaqua]

Difference in opinion, I guess.  I find it very hard to do that.  Something like Paper Mario 2 I can deal with just because it's entirely self contained and doesn't appear to reference anything outside of itself, but most games I just can't deal with it.