Topic: Brokeback lawsuit is tough.

[Pugnate]

Girl, 12, sues over Brokeback Mountain

A 12-year-old girl and her family are suing for £250,000 damages after she was shown gay cowboy movie Brokeback Mountain in class.

The student, Jessica Turner, said she suffered psychological distress after watching the movie, reports the Chicago Tribune.

The teacher who showed the movie told students, "What happens in Ms. Buford's class stays in Ms. Buford's class," according to the lawsuit.

The girl and her family filed the suit against the Chicago Board of Education after the film was shown to students at Ashburn Community Elementary School a year ago.

Brokeback Mountain, which stars Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal as two cowboys who fall in love, includes love scenes between the two men and between the men and their wives.

"It is very important to me that my children not be exposed to this," said Turner's grandfather and guardian, Kenneth Richardson.

"The teacher knew she was not supposed to do this... It's like I told the principal, she should have better control over her teachers."

Richardson said his granddaughter was traumatised after watching the movie and told him: "They made me watch this bad movie."

Chicago Public Schools Spokesman Mike Vaughn declined to comment.

I agree. That's definitely not appropriate for a 12 year old. My sister wanted to see the movie, especially after nominations.. though we never got past the inital phase. I think the first 'love' scene left me quite disgusted... so I can only imagine what it did to a 12 year old.

[Xessive]

Wow, that teacher is retarded. I don't care about the movie but what the Hell: "What happens in Ms. Buford's class stays in Ms. Buford's class." I mean if she said that the least she could have done was show them Sin City or something!

[beo]

hmmm... i don't know what side to take on this so i'll sit on the fence.

on one hand, it could be a positive step in an adolescents development to realise the struggles that people can go through coming to terms with their sexuality. on the other hand, i think any film that deals with sexual themes (whatever they may be) is not really the most ideal watching for a 12 year old. i guess it depends on the 12 year old in question - if they're reasonably intelligent and well adjusted, i don't really see what harm it could do. if i'm one day unfortunate enough to have kids, i don't think i'd have a problem with them watching something like that - at least it teaches things such as compassion and acceptance, rather than violence and vengeance. the film may be graphic, and might be about something that we don't really want to see "in the flesh", as it were - but it happens, and seeing it on a tv or movie screen isn't going to damage anyone.

at the end of the day, it wasn't the teachers judgment call to make though. they stepped over the line, and while i hate the "sue everyone" culture, they've kind of got it coming.

[PyroMenace]

Yea, I pretty much totally agree with beo. The teacher should have been more aware of what she was doing.

[scottws]

While the teacher may have been in the wrong, I don't think a lawsuit is justified here.

It's no wonder our education system is one of the worst on the planet.  Teachers can't do anything to challenge young minds.

I saw a video in a diversity traning class at work.  It was filmed in the late 70s, I believe, but showed footage from a teaching experiment in the 60's.  A teacher took her class, I think it was third or fourth grade, and tought them about diversity in a pretty radical way.  She first asked them what they think when they saw a black person walking down the street.  They were from some small town in Iowa, all white, and they all said some fairly racist things.

So the teacher asked if it is okay to judge someone based on what they look like.  Pretty much they all seemed to say yes or not really answer.  She started going on saying things like, "Well you, know, people that have brown eyes aren't as smart or as good at things as people with blue eyes.  It's the truth, scientific fact."  Then she made people with brown eyes wear a black collar and on recess a black sleeve over their jackets - so that she could see what color eyes they have from a distance.

Throughout the day, she kept reinforcing that brown-eyed people weren't as good as blue-eyed people.  The kids immediately took to it and friendships between people with brown eyes and people with blue eyes instantly shattered and the blue-eyes kind of took over the dominant position in the class, and threw out put-downs of "you're a brown-eye."  This all started to occur within minutes of her proposing the idea that brown-eyed people weren't as capable.

They next day, she told the class that she made a mistake, that it was actually blue-eyed people that were dumb.  And the role basically reversed for that day.  At the beginning of the next day she said it wasn't true at all that eye color had anything to do with the mental capacity or behavior of a person, and that she had them go through that so they could learn what it was like to be judged based on something irrelavant and something that couldn't be changed about yourself, like the color of your skin.  It was pretty amazing.

About 20 years later, a newscaster gathered the teacher and that class from the 60's and asked them how that impacted their lives.  They all pretty much said it was like an epiphany and it completely changed their lives and their children's lives forever.

Anyway, my point is that this teacher - any teacher - wouldn't be able to do something like this today.  They'd be at the very least burned at the stake by the parents and fired.  More likely she would be sued for "psychologicall damaging" the students.  Even though the aggressive tactic had a deep and positive impact on the students, it basically isn't allowed today.

It's pretty sad really.  I mean our education system gets worse every day and people wonder why.  It's because no one trusts teachers anymore, and no one gives them the sort of free reign they need to really challenge and develop American minds.

[Pugnate]

hmmm... i don't know what side to take on this so i'll sit on the fence.

on one hand, it could be a positive step in an adolescents development to realise the struggles that people can go through coming to terms with their sexuality. on the other hand, i think any film that deals with sexual themes (whatever they may be) is not really the most ideal watching for a 12 year old. i guess it depends on the 12 year old in question - if they're reasonably intelligent and well adjusted, i don't really see what harm it could do. if i'm one day unfortunate enough to have kids, i don't think i'd have a problem with them watching something like that - at least it teaches things such as compassion and acceptance, rather than violence and vengeance. the film may be graphic, and might be about something that we don't really want to see "in the flesh", as it were - but it happens, and seeing it on a tv or movie screen isn't going to damage anyone.

at the end of the day, it wasn't the teachers judgment call to make though. they stepped over the line, and while i hate the "sue everyone" culture, they've kind of got it coming.

Have you seen the movie?

I realize what you were saying, and that's why we rented it because I thought it would represent the struggles of homosexuals or whatever. That could have been interesting.

Unfortunately within the first thirty minutes you see one gay cowboy pound the other gay cowboy in the ass after watching them spontaneously make out in bed. What the hell does that have anything to do with anything? I thought it was rubbish, and looked like just an attempt to get away with as much as possible.

My disgust with the film has nothing to do with my views on homosexuality.

Had the film showed a heterosexual couple engaged in anal sex, I still would have found it outrageous material for a twelve year old.

n one hand, it could be a positive step in an adolescents development to realise the struggles that people can go through coming to terms with their sexuality. on the other hand,

Look if it just showed the struggles that minorities in society go through, I would have been all for it.

The movie had sex scenes (involving Anne Hathaway topless -- yum) for example. That is just not appropriate material for twelve year olds. What about one cowboy thrusting himself into another cowboy. Is that the sort of thing that is appropriate?

It's no wonder our education system is one of the worst on the planet.  Teachers can't do anything to challenge young minds.

It is obvious to me that you haven't seen the movie. It is one thing to challenge the mind, and another to tear it into pieces.

They aren't suing the teacher because this is a issue of homosexuality. The issue is that the movie is not appropriate. Even if it involved a hetrosexual couple, I wouldn't want a twelve year old watching anal sex.

[scottws]

Regardless of the content of the movie, is a lawsuit really justified here?  I mean seriously.  What's next?  "You gave my son an F on his paper and he's now psychologically distraut because of it so I'm suing you?"

[Pugnate]

Grading a student on performance is what teachers are hired for. That is a judgment call, and teachers can't and shouldn't be sued for that. This is something else entirely. I don't think that movie was at all appropriate for twelve year olds, and I am sure most parents were quite outraged.

[Xessive]

Grading a student on performance is what teachers are hired for. That is a judgment call, and teachers can't and shouldn't be sued for that. This is something else entirely. I don't think that movie was at all appropriate for twelve year olds, and I am sure most parents were quite outraged.

That's what I think too. It's very inappropriate for 12 year olds. Hell I think it's inappropriate for 14 year olds. I'd be more understanding if the teacher had shown them a Sex-Ed tape! I mean that would be actually useful!

[beo]

well, it's not like there's any penetration shots. i'm one of those weird people who doesn't actually see anything wrong with sex. i don't think it's portrayal in films is anything to be disgusted by, and i don't really see how that differs from when you're twelve, or when you're over eighteen. sexuality isn't evil, it's a part of life that everybody experiences. it's a hell of a lot more interesting than most other parts of our life, so i don't see anything "wrong" with it being explored in film.

i think far more damage is caused by the view that is impressed upon us constantly that sexual stuff is somehow dirty, and should be shied away from whenever possible. that way of thinking leads to repression, and really fucks people up in the head.

[Quemaqua]

I disagree entirely.  Just because you keep somebody away from something doesn't mean you make them believe its dirty or disgusting.  I was raised with a very healthy awareness of sex.  I knew what it was, I knew what the positives and negatives were from a biological standpoint (why people liked it and what it could do to you if you were irresponsible about it), and I was also kept away from it because my parents were very traditional.  Am I fucked up?  No.  I had my little flings with girls in high school and college, played around here and there, and generally got to know the landscape of that side of life well enough, but I also remained (only in the most technical sense of course) a virgin until I got married.  Had I treated it like recreation, I guarantee you there'd be no way that I'd have the willpower to deal with the sexual problems I have in my marriage now due to my wife's condition, just as I can pretty much guarantee few to none of you guys would be able to deal with that sort of thing in a relationship.

Do I think the film would be appropriate for a young girl?  Not a chance in hell.  And even if somebody felt that maybe it was, what fucking place is it for a teacher to show that?  No, I'm sorry, but a teacher's place is to teach a curriculum, not indoctrinate kids with whatever their own personal views on something happen to be.  While its true that something positive like what scott said could never happen in school these days, I don't think it's supposed to.  If people were reasonable and could raise their kids there'd be no need in the first place.  But people don't, so they constantly look outward for others to teach their kids everything that *they* should be teaching them.  Do I think she deserves to be sued?  Yes, in this case I do.  Not that I agree with our legal system or the way it operates most of the time, nor with the concept of just handing money to people for everything, but I do think the teacher deserves punishment for being an egomaniac who believes her own concepts are so far above those of the parents that have entrusted their children to her.

It used to be that teachers could do more because they shared the same values as the parents most of the time.  The country was much more even-keeled, much more unified in terms of what the general populace thought was good and should be taught to kids.  Now we don't have that at all.  We have extreme division over fundamental principles based on absolute, foundation-level disagreement on what is right and wrong.  Now, the teachers only place is to teach kids math, how to spell, and then to shut the fuck up.  It's a side effect of everything else happening in the world, and while it's a shame, it's a hard fact of the division we live with.

I'm more or less with Pug on the subject.  Say what you like about homosexuality, but the base issue is really that a movie like this just doesn't belong in a classroom, gay cowboys or otherwise.  Were I a parent, I'd be demanding her head.  Does it mean the kid is going to be fucked up for life just because she saw this stuff?  No, not necessarily, but it was never the teacher's place to show it.

[beo]

I disagree entirely.  Just because you keep somebody away from something doesn't mean you make them believe its dirty or disgusting.  I was raised with a very healthy awareness of sex.  I knew what it was, I knew what the positives and negatives were from a biological standpoint (why people liked it and what it could do to you if you were irresponsible about it), and I was also kept away from it because my parents were very traditional.  Am I fucked up?  No.

i didn't mean to imply that everyone who comes from such an upbringing is fucked up, more just that i don't see why sex is considered taboo, or why we have to be shielded from it so much. i don't think that being exposed to the fact it exists, what it is, or even visual depictions of consensual sex is going to have a negative impact on anyone. of course, others may disagree, and i think that's fine. it's your prerogative as a parent to decide these things.

but yeah, i totally agree that she shouldn't of shown it. not because i believe it was the wrong thing to do, but because so many parents are blatantly going to disagree with her choice. it's their say, not hers that matters.

scott, i think the easiest way to relate is imagine if your kids were being shown something that you would consider disturbing - a clockwork orange, saw, or hostel. some parents are obviously going to have different views on what is or isn't acceptable. it's a fine line, and the teacher must of *known* that she'd be crossing it with some of the parents.

if my kid was shown a clockwork orange at school, i'd be really fucking pissed. to a lot of people (be they right or wrong), this isn't a million miles away from that.

[Pugnate]

That was a great post Que. Very well put.

but I do think the teacher deserves punishment for being an egomaniac who believes her own concepts are so far above those of the parents that have entrusted their children to her.

That's pretty much it.

i'm one of those weird people who doesn't actually see anything wrong with sex. i don't think it's portrayal in films is anything to be disgusted by, and i don't really see how that differs from when you're twelve, or when you're over eighteen. sexuality isn't evil, it's a part of life that everybody experiences.

I don't think you are the one who is weird. You are part of the majority on this.

Anyway I am not saying 'sex is teh evil' and stuff. I am just saying that it is a sensitive subject and each parent has their own belief on what a child should view and what not. A teacher is in an entrusted position, and doesn't have the right to make such decisions.

The thing is, we are talking about twelve year olds.... twelve year olds.

I remember when I first learned how babies are born and what sexual intercourse is. I was probably about ten and had come across a biology text book from a senior class. I remember I was pretty shocked back then. I can still remember thinking,"Ewww that's disgusting. Why don't they use injections?" lol.

Back to the subject of this thread. I can imagine that for a lot of twelve year olds, this was their first sexual experience of any nature. I guess in today's society you can't escape sexual content, but imagine your first memory of any sexual activity involving Jake Gyllenhaal being roughly shoved to the floor on all fours by Heath Ledger, as he removed his pants and attempted to go for 'teh butt sex.'

While they didn't actually show any private parts or actual penetration, it was pretty obvious from the grunting and the thrusting what the hell it was going on. Do any of you honestly think it is alright for twelve year olds -- some of them innocent -- to have seen that? If I had seen that as a twelve year old, I am sure I would have been more than a little shocked.

[beo]

While didn't actually show any private parts or actual penetration, it was pretty obvious from the grunting and the thrusting what the hell it was going on. Do any of you honestly think it is alright for twelve year olds -- some of them innocent -- to have seen that? If I had seen that as a twelve year old, I am sure I would have been more than a little shocked.

i think if you deal with it as "that's fucked up", that's how the kids are probably going to see it. if you treat it as another part of normal human sexuality, then the kids will see it that way too. i'm not a psychologist though, so i'm not really in a position to comment! and i don't really think twelve is too young to see this sort of thing. i learned about sex when i was about seven or eight, and by the time we had sex ed at eleven, i don't think any of it was new to anyone in the room. sure, i'm pretty positive that i'd be grossed out, but i don't think i'd have any legitimate reason to be. you grow up and you learn, not all what you learn is pretty. i don't see any reason for people to be shielded from stuff like this based on age - however, if we were talking about highly violent subject matter, then i'd have a completely different view.

[scottws]

scott, i think the easiest way to relate is imagine if your kids were being shown something that you would consider disturbing - a clockwork orange, saw, or hostel. some parents are obviously going to have different views on what is or isn't acceptable. it's a fine line, and the teacher must of *known* that she'd be crossing it with some of the parents.

if my kid was shown a clockwork orange at school, i'd be really fucking pissed. to a lot of people (be they right or wrong), this isn't a million miles away from that.

I would not like it and yeah probably be upset.  But file a law suit?  Uh, no.  I am seriously shocked that a lawsuit was filed in this case.

I'm surprised I disagree with almost everyone that's posted here.  I don't think it is teachers' responsibility to teach everything there is to be taught, but you all do realize the fact that we don't let teachers teach anything other than math, science, etc. is the direct cause of the growing dumb-ness of Americans in comparison to the rest of the world, right?

[nickclone]

I have a question: do you all think that it was innapropiate because of its "R" rating or because of the gay sex?

 We used to watch "R" movies at school all the time, we watched "Lord of the Flies" (which is filled with cussing and language) and "The Thomas Crown Affair (which is filled with sex), no one ever complained.

[Cobra951]

The serious problem here is that a teacher took it upon herself to promote a social viewpoint which was neither entrusted to her, nor approved by the guardians of the children entrusted to her.  There is no need even to discuss what the controversial subject matter was, or its merits.  Suffice it to say that it falls outside of what many parents would approve for their children's education, and that surreptitious methods are the only way to promote it.  This teacher knew that, and whether her motives were perverse, or the the very soul of some liberal utopia, makes no difference.  She needs to stop teaching children anything.  In my view, she can no longer be trusted unsupervised--and what school is going to pay her salary plus fulltime supervision?

[angrykeebler]

Totally agree with Cobra.. i mean, "What happens in Ms. Buford's class stays in Ms. Buford's class"?!?! This woman knew what she was doing was wrong but did it anyways.

[nickclone]

I still don't see what the big deal is, these kids see all of this shit in the real world. If this teacher showed "The Ten Commandments", this wouldn't be an issue.

Also, how does showing "Brokeback Mountain" equate to a 250k lawsuit?

[angrykeebler]

uhhh... people want easy money?

[Quemaqua]

I still don't see what the big deal is, these kids see all of this shit in the real world. If this teacher showed "The Ten Commandments", this wouldn't be an issue.

That is the most idiotic thing I think I've ever heard you say.  Guess what, mate, people have been bitching and suing over religious stuff in schools all over the fucking place since the 80s.

[nickclone]

That is the most idiotic thing I think I've ever heard you say.  Guess what, mate, people have been bitching and suing over religious stuff in schools all over the fucking place since the 80s.

Lets be honest, if I tried to sue my child's school for showing "The Ten Commandments" I would be laughed out of court and you know it. Shit, public schools won't even take the "under God" out of the pledge.

My point is, the only reason there is a lawsuit to begin with is because this movie is seen as "sacrilegious".

[Pugnate]

Yea while I don't agree with a lawsuit for 250k, I do feel that punishment for the teacher is required.

[Quemaqua]

Lets be honest, if I tried to sue my child's school for showing "The Ten Commandments" I would be laughed out of court and you know it.

It must be nice living in your own reality.

[nickclone]

It must be nice living in your own reality.

You tell me.

[Raisa]

hot topic we have here.  I'd like to put my finger in the pie too.

I agree with Que and Pug. 

That movie sucked.  It was just wrong on so many levels.  With or without those scenes, it's still disgusting.  The selfishness of the characters are really quite amazing.

Nickclone, you've got to be kidding me!  You live in a country that's half full (a bit of an exaggeration) of people who can't even stand seeing a person walking down the street holding a bible or doing the rosary.  A country that's trying to remove "In God we trust".  Bigger picture, dude.. bigger picture.

I think one of the worst things that can happen to a kid is to be forcibly pulled out of that kid's world too early.  Especially by teachers who, along with the parents, are supposedly people who can show kids how to act and live. 

Kids are exposed to so many things too early nowadays.  I remember when I was younger, I wasn't as exposed.  Of course I heard a lot of stuff, saw a lot of stuff, and I feel like I was robbed of some time.  When the reality of the world and just how disgusting it can be and how horrible people could be hit me, I was mature enough to take it. I can't say I took it well. It broke my heart and still breaks my heart...but at least I was old enough to discern that not everything is like that.  If a kid's exposed too early on, they'll miss out on years they'll never, ever, ever be able to have.  They'll get callous and just be so disillusioned.  I know enough teens who committed suicide because they were just so over the world.

[nickclone]

hot topic we have here.  I'd like to put my finger in the pie too.

I agree with Que and Pug. 

That movie sucked.  It was just wrong on so many levels.  With or without those scenes, it's still disgusting.  The selfishness of the characters are really quite amazing.

Nickclone, you've got to be kidding me!  You live in a country that's half full (a bit of an exaggeration) of people who can't even stand seeing a person walking down the street holding a bible or doing the rosary.  A country that's trying to remove "In God we trust".  Bigger picture, dude.. bigger picture.

I think one of the worst things that can happen to a kid is to be forcibly pulled out of that kid's world too early.  Especially by teachers who, along with the parents, are supposedly people who can show kids how to act and live. 

Kids are exposed to so many things too early nowadays.  I remember when I was younger, I wasn't as exposed.  Of course I heard a lot of stuff, saw a lot of stuff, and I feel like I was robbed of some time.  When the reality of the world and just how disgusting it can be and how horrible people could be hit me, I was mature enough to take it. I can't say I took it well. It broke my heart and still breaks my heart...but at least I was old enough to discern that not everything is like that.  If a kid's exposed too early on, they'll miss out on years they'll never, ever, ever be able to have.  They'll get callous and just be so disillusioned.  I know enough teens who committed suicide because they were just so over the world.

No! Not you too, Raisa!

Its just a movie, its not saying "go fuck a cowboy", "suck cock", "be a carpet muncher" or " go stick your dick in asshole". Its just a movie about two guys who love each other, I really don't see what the big deal is. Should it have been shown in school to a bunch of kids without their parents permission? No, but only because it is rated "R". Hell, the movie doesn't even condone anything gay. Its just a story.

I don't see whats so disgusting about it, I would never do it, but there are a lot of things I won't do. Besides, why is it ok to have a love story that centers around adultery or murder, but not butt hole pleasures?

Oh and I do think that children are being exposed to more stuff earlier than I ever was, but its not a bad thing and it can't be helped. Between tv, radio, newspapers and now the internet, the world can't be hidden from your children like it could back in the old days. Some of you may think that protecting your children from "the world" is good, but in doing so you're not preparing them for reality.

Edit: Also, do you really think I go around belittling people who where crosses and rosaries? Even if they are idealizing a religious object...anyways, I don't do it. Its the other way around, I've never had an atheist try to convert me to there side when I was minding my own business at a grocery store. I've never had an atheist knock on my door and try to "enlighten" me. When I used to wait tables on Sunday morning (good money, but the customers were pricks), people would ask me if I went to church. When I lied and said yes, I got a bigger tip, when I said no I got lectured and told that I would "come around".

I've never harassed someone who walked around with a bible, its actually the other way around.

[NatchDan]

I just want to bring to attention the sudden proliferation of "tough"s in the GD forum. What's the dealio?

[angrykeebler]

I blame Pugnate. That rat bastard.

[Pugnate]

Its OK, you can call me whatever you want AngryK. You are teh wise.

[angrykeebler]

SHUT YOUR STUPID FACE!

[Pugnate]

I will do as you suggest.

[angrykeebler]

i hate you. srsly.

[Pugnate]

I hope one day you will change your opinion.

[W7RE]

What I learned from this thread:

If you don't like Brokeback Mountain you are a homophobe.
If you are uncomfortable watching 2 guys kiss or hump, you are a homophobe.
If you are a homophobe, you are probably a religious zealot.
Religion is nothing more than a form of control, and a way to cheat on your taxes.
Christians R bad, but I swear no one persecutes them for anything, ever.

[Pugnate]

[nickclone]

What I learned from this thread:

If you don't like Brokeback Mountain you are a homophobe.
If you are uncomfortable watching 2 guys kiss or hump, you are a homophobe.
If you are a homophobe, you are probably a religious zealot.
Religion is nothing more than a form of control, and a way to cheat on your taxes.
Christians R bad, but I swear no one persecutes them for anything, ever.

Wow, so you I just go around all day calling people racists and homophobes, huh? The things you "learned" in this thread were never said by anyone, I'm not sure you're going to pass the test young man.

1. If "The Ten Commandments" or "The Passion" were shown in the classroom, there would be no public outrage. I honestly believe that if the roles were reversed, no one here would blink in eye that someone forced kids to watch one of those movies. Showing "Brokeback", doesn't have any religious or political connotations, its just a movie about a couple of gay dudes.

2. You got your third learned thing backwards.

[angrykeebler]

Wow, so you I just go around all day calling people racists and homophobes, huh? The things you "learned" in this thread were never said by anyone, I'm not sure you're going to pass the test young man.

1. If "The Ten Commandments" or "The Passion" were shown in the classroom, there would be no public outrage. I honestly believe that if the roles were reversed, no one here would blink in eye that someone forced kids to watch one of those movies. Showing "Brokeback", doesn't have any religious or political connotations, its just a movie about a couple of gay dudes.

Wow... I cannot believe you said that. That is the most ignorant thing I have heard in a long time.

There would be HUUUUUUGE public outrage if either of those movies were screened in a classroom. Not just from lawsuits either (of which there would be plenty) but from groups like the ACLU and others.

Or have we forgotten about seperation of church and state?

[ren]

What kind of teacher would think it's a good idea to show a class of 12 year old kids Brokeback Mountain anyways? I remember when I was that age and we saw a movie where two people kiss the whole class would get rowdy. This teacher is around 12 year olds all the time, she should know that a lot of them can't handle this kind of subject matter. She should also know that parents will find out and that they're going to be pissed.

I'm all for radical teaching methods and broadening the horizons of kids, but this teacher seems to be oblivious and short-sighted. I wouldn't want her in and position of authority over my kids.

[idolminds]

My question is what exactly was she trying to teach by showing the movie? Was showing the movie the best way to teach this or was there a better, less controversial way to teach it? I'm betting the latter.

Most likely she got it on netflix and just wanted to watch it.