Author Topic: Nicklone.  (Read 3501 times)

Offline Pugnate

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Nicklone.
« on: Wednesday, May 23, 2007, 02:53:51 PM »
Regardless of how controversial or confrontational his views are, he has kept things interesting. I can't remember the last time we had more than one interesting discussion going at a time. I am not saying he should confront for the sake of it, but I have some questions now, especially thanks to W7Re's recent comments.

I am not homophobic. Does that mean I can't be uncomfortable if two guys are making out/fake humping?

I am not racist, does that mean I am not allowed to notice the major flaws of the African American culture?


But honestly, I guess it is just human nature to assume the worst. For example, I am not in any way anti American... I consider myself a balanced person, and only take sides on an issue after making an honest judgment based on the facts I come across. If I find Muslims at fault, I will point it out, and conversely will do the same if I feel it is the other side at fault. Over the past seven years with you lot, whenever there has been a discussion on a world issue, I have always been objective in my opinions. For example during the Danish cartoons incident, while I tried to explain the Muslim sentiment, I agreed that they were dead wrong to take part in any violence. I posted those exact same thoughts at a few of the Muslim message boards I frequent, and subsequently faced a backlash.

When it came to the Lebanon/Israel conflict, I thought that the Arabs were silly to ask the Israelis to leave. Again, most Muslims would disagree, but those were my thoughts without bias. It was just a judgment based on my interpretation of the facts. There was no prejudice that swayed my opinion in either direction.

So after seven years of posting with you guys, for the first time I posted a few threads that were considered 'anti American'. I still don't consider them to be anti American, because to say that would be to suggest I hold bias, which I don't. They were based on numerous news items about innocent Muslims detained on suspicion of terrorism, many of whom claimed to have been tortured. Eventually many of the accused walked away with judgments in their favor. 

Anyway the point is that after those threads, I was amazed to get a few private messages accusing me of being anti American, and being biased.

I was amazed because that was the first time anyone had accused me of holding bias in favor of Muslims. People I know in real life would laugh at the thought. Whenever I am at a Muslim gathering, I try my best to explain the point of views of non Muslims, because I know it will help create a better understanding.

Yet of the dozens of views I have shared with everyone here, it just took one where I was on the other side of the fence for a lot of people to feel that I was 'anti american' and 'biased'.

So I am going to have to add to my list of questions.

I am not homophobic. Does that mean I can't be uncomfortable if two guys are making out/fake humping?

I am not racist, does that mean I am not allowed to notice the major flaws of the African American culture?

I am not Anti American. Does that mean I have to agree with everything the American government does?


Anyway I was not angry or upset in the least, though I was very amused. I mean this is just a message board on the internet after all, and it can be difficult to express views on any subject because of the limitations of the medium.

Offline nickclone

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Re: Nicklone.
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday, May 23, 2007, 06:53:40 PM »
Theres nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with seeing two guys kiss, but you have to ask yourself why it makes you uncomfortable. Is it because of the simple fact that its two guys kissing or because your religion says its wrong? Would you be as freaked out to see two women making out?

I know you're not Anti-America, but with the way things are going right now, if you were I couldn't hold it against you.

Offline angrykeebler

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Re: Nicklone.
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday, May 23, 2007, 07:09:14 PM »
I am not homophobic.

I get freaked out by 2 dudes kissing. I do not get freaked out by 2 ladies kissing. (Unless they look like dudes)

I am an agnostic.

I think most guys on this board (Christian or no) feels like I do. However, Nickclone just assumes that its the religion and thats part of his problem. He just assumes that we are all against him. He is also further inciting the Christians with threads like that stupid Top 10 list.

Seriously dude... You are being a jackass. Just... I dunno... stop it.

Suck it, Pugnate.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Nicklone.
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday, May 23, 2007, 07:20:37 PM »
I'm not homophobic.  I don't agree with much of the homosexual movement and liberalism in general, but it isn't so much a sex thing.  Yes, two dudes kissing is nasty.  This is probably mostly just because I really don't like the male form.  As an artist, I prefer females.  Males are square and thick (generalization, but you know), and girls are round and have a lot more lines to them.  Is that why?  Who knows.  Who cares.  I don't dig on dudes, hence watching two of them go at it is rather unpleasant.

I'm not racist, and I "notice" the flaws of many racial cultures in America constantly, including my own.  I'm vocal about them, too.  I really don't care who doesn't like it.

I'm not anti-American, and I don't like a lot of what the American government does, either.  I might get pissy with someone over a contested point or two (I know we've butted heads before, Pug), but that doesn't mean I'll call them anti-American.  In the case of Pug, I think he's a remarkably balanced and well-reasoned individual.  We don't see eye to eye on everything, but we do see eye to eye on a lot.

As for nick... don't get me started again.  I think I sufficiently expressed my opinion of him in the other thread.

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Offline Cobra951

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Re: Nicklone.
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday, May 23, 2007, 09:30:37 PM »
"Homophobe" is a "heads we win, tails you lose" term, sort of like the question "when did you stop beating your wife?"  Unless you are homosexual, you are treading on thin ice even addressing it.  I'm as much a homophobe as I am a broccoliphobe.  Broccoli makes me nauseous, but only if if eat it, or think of eating it.  I know many people who eat it, some of them friends, and I have no problem with them eating it in the same room I'm in, unless the stench is too strong and some ceiling fan is blowing it in my face.  I don't think any less of them for their taste in vegetables, but I will not under any circumstances join them.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Nicklone.
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday, May 23, 2007, 09:46:22 PM »
Alright, I started cracking up laughing when you mentioned broccoliphobe. That's good stuff.

As for the original post, I guess it just sheds light on how we continue to group things in extremes- particularly in America. Conservative or Liberal, Republican or Democrat, etc. Just because you don't like to see two guys kissing doesn't mean you hate gay people. I don't like it either, but I don't care what they do in private. I just don't want to see it. That doesn't make me homophobic. Just because I disagree largely with the Bush administration doesn't make me a Democrat. In fact, most people fall in the middle ground on issues, it's just the extremes that have the loudest viewpoints, and therefore seem to get heard the most.

As for you, Pug, I don't know who pm'ed you, but most of the people on here know that you are a stand-up guy. Besides, if you disagree with current U.S. policies aren't you just agreeing with 70% of Americans? ;)

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Nicklone.
« Reply #6 on: Thursday, May 24, 2007, 12:48:21 PM »
Quote
Theres nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with seeing two guys kiss, but you have to ask yourself why it makes you uncomfortable. Is it because of the simple fact that its two guys kissing or because your religion says its wrong? Would you be as freaked out to see two women making out?

I know you're not Anti-America, but with the way things are going right now, if you were I couldn't hold it against you.

Oh definitely, I am uncomfortable because I was brought up to believe it was wrong. Having grown up, I have turned myself into a person who doesn't judge, yet old habbits die hard. The fact is and it will always remain that I will be uncomfortable if I see two men get intimate. It is just my automatic reaction. Does it matter if I am not letting it affect my judgment otherwise?

I wouldn't be freaked out to see two women, though my upbringing dictates that I should be just as displeased with that. I think the reasons why I wouldn't be freaked out, are pretty obvious.

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I know you're not Anti-America, but with the way things are going right now, if you were I couldn't hold it against you.

See I have a problem with the term. Anyone who I hear say is anti anything, I automatically think less off. To me, to be anti American or anti Muslim means that you are going to side against them in any situation.

I don't think the world is perfect, but I don't think any side is perfectly evil or absolutely wrong. I have issues with the invasion of Iraq for example -- though I believe the situation will get worse if they leave now. I also have issues with the treatment of terror suspects, but that doesn't mean I am anti American. Freedom of speech FTW!!!!

The fact is that I am bothered by how even in some western countries, freedoms are being restricted. Take a look at Germany for example!

Quote
I think most guys on this board (Christian or no) feels like I do. However, Nickclone just assumes that its the religion and thats part of his problem. He just assumes that we are all against him. He is also further inciting the Christians with threads like that stupid Top 10 list.

I think he likes to play devil's advocate, and probably says a lot of these things with a twinkle in his eye. I just have a feeling that sometimes he says stuff to just keep things interesting, which is why I like him a lot more now.

I don't think he means it, or at least that's why I suspect.

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I'm not homophobic.  I don't agree with much of the homosexual movement and liberalism in general, but it isn't so much a sex thing.

I have to admit, I've changed my opinion on a lot of things because of guys like Folk and Duckfat. I was completely against gay marriage because I felt that it was a concept based on religion, and with religion being so anti homosexual it didn't make sense to allow gays to marry. However Duckfat explained to me that gays don't really care about marriage as they do about the civil privileges and rights that come with the union. So I think it would be a good idea to allow gay couples to be together in a civil union.

Quote
his is probably mostly just because I really don't like the male form.  As an artist, I prefer females.  Males are square and thick (generalization, but you know), and girls are round and have a lot more lines to them.

I never thought of it like that, but yea the female form is so much sleeker and smoother. I can understand how drawing females would appeal more to an artist. Men are like hummers while gals are like a Ferrari.

Quote
"Homophobe" is a "heads we win, tails you lose" term, sort of like the question "when did you stop beating your wife?"

I don't understand the wife beating phrase...

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Nicklone.
« Reply #7 on: Thursday, May 24, 2007, 01:44:30 PM »
Quote
"Homophobe" is a "heads we win, tails you lose" term, sort of like the question "when did you stop beating your wife?"

I don't understand the wife beating phrase...

It's a loaded question.  It asks for a point in time, not whether you ever beat your wife.  If you answer it under its terms, you lose, regardless of what you say.

Offline Folk

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Re: Nicklone.
« Reply #8 on: Thursday, May 24, 2007, 04:06:57 PM »
I am not homophobic. Does that mean I can't be uncomfortable if two guys are making out/fake humping?
Like I said in the other thread, that's kinda like saying, "I'm not racist, but I feel uncomfortable when I see black people."  True, you might not "hate" gays, but it states that you obviously have issue with them in some manner.  That's where tolerance and acceptance get jumbled.

You know what's funny for me?  I kinda go "whoa" when I see two ladies kiss.  It's VERY odd for me.  I'm just not used to seeing it.  I'm sure that's the case with the reaction a lot of you guys feel regarding mo's.  With exposure comes desensitizing. 

Come hang out with me for a weekend, and I guarantee you'll leave not caring about things.  It's all about who you know, how you relate to them, and your overall level of comfort.  If you live in your bubble, isolated from ever being given a chance to get past your discomfort, then you'll never change your reactions.  Any straight guy with gay friends who are comfortable in their own skin will tell you that much. :)

I mean- my little brother gets upset if he doesn't get hit on when I take him out for beers at a local bar, and he started out going "ew ew ew!" just like you guys. :P

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Re: Nicklone.
« Reply #9 on: Thursday, May 24, 2007, 09:20:46 PM »
I am, and forever will be, a Pugnate fan.

That's all that matters.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Nicklone.
« Reply #10 on: Thursday, May 24, 2007, 10:10:18 PM »
Gotta' disagree with you, Folk.  I had several gay friends I hung out and partied with in SF all the time.  I even... *shudder*... spent a few Halloweens at the block parties around Castro.  One of my friends had parents that lived there.  And in all that time I really never got too comfy with the close proximity to guy makeout sessions.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野