Topic: The Official BioShock thread.

[Quemaqua]

Idol - same way it would be in an MP game.  It gives you a greater range of vision than you're supposed to have according to the way the game was designed.  I'm not saying it makes a great deal of difference, as I already stated, I just fail to see why people don't understand they're playing the game the way it was designed.  They make it sound as though they're getting gipped somehow.

MyD - Shut up. Please?

[MysterD]

I don't often use Widescreen for playing a game...

...Actually, some games just put your game always in wide-screen, like it or not -- such as RE4 for the PC.

As far as I'm concerned, they have NO OBLIGATION to put the game in both modes. Whether they choose widescreen or fullscreen, that's their decision. They made the damn game -- most games force you into either Wide of Full; end of story.

It is really good of Irrational/2K to give gamers the option b/t Fullscreen and some sort of Widescreen in the first place -- and that upcoming patch to improve Widescreen is quite nice of Irrational.

EDIT:
Come to think of it, you know, Irrational has done a lot of very nice things for us w/ Bioshock, of late -- the free art book PDF download and the Free Soundtrack download, to mention a few things.

[idolminds]

I know they are going a bit overboard, but saying FOV is a cheat in SP is...eh, not accurate. Its not like seeing a few more degrees is going to break the game or anything, "Oh God, he can see enemies to the side a little bit sooner, now the game is going to be a cakewalk!"

And I've noticed you've taken the whole online activation/limited install thing fairly well considering your usual stance on this kind of thing. Bioshock fanboy goggles in place?

[Quemaqua]

As far as I'm concerned, they have NO OBLIGATION to put the game in both modes. Whether they choose widescreen or fullscreen, that's their decision. They made the damn game -- most games force you into either Wide of Full; end of story.

I couldn't possibly disagree with you more.  And I hate to break it to you, but MOST games DO support both wide and full screen.  It wasn't the norm to letterbox anything on an SD display until lazy developers on the 360.

And idol, I'm not really saying it's a cheat.  That wasn't the proper wording.  I'm saying it's giving yourself something you weren't supposed to have.  People are complaining as though they're being *gipped*, as though something is being taken away from them, when that isn't the case.  So what they're asking for is *luxury*.  They're outraged that they aren't being given luxury, but they *think* they're outraged at having something withheld from them.  I'm just trying to point out that they're stupid, that they don't even know what they're actually complaining about.

Also, no, I haven't taken the authentication stuff lying down.  I complained about it when it was first announced and I've been decrying it along with everyone else at the Cult site.  The difference is I'm trying to be reasonable about it.  I don't agree with online activation, I don't agree with install limits, I don't agree with SecuROM or any of its brethren that hamper legitimate customers while doing virtually nothing to stop or even HINDER piracy.  However, that isn't going to keep me from playing the game I've been waiting 8 years for.  I'm still going to support Irrational with my money, I'm just not going to remain quiet about the issue.  If nobody had complained, the install limits wouldn't have been raised, the number of computers one can install to wouldn't have been raised, and we wouldn't have found out that they planned to simply deactivate the need for online authentication at some point in the future.  Some companies will never listen, but if enough people complain, chances are good you don't have to boycott a product to get your point across.  There may well come a time in the future when that isn't the case, and certainly with some companies (Microsoft) you can scream until you're blue in the face and never achieve a damned thing, but 2K has been very, very responsive to fans with BioShock.

And hell, it isn't Steam.  I even caved on that issue with HL2 (though I regretted it afterward).  This was a far easier pill to swallow, all things considered.

[Jedi]

As far as I'm concerned, they have NO OBLIGATION to put the game in both modes. Whether they choose widescreen or fullscreen, that's their decision. They made the damn game -- most games force you into either Wide of Full; end of story.

Hahaha, really man what games have you been playing... before you quote me then answer - is a rhetorical question.

Edit threads like this are better then most reviews.

[Quemaqua]

Also, for those trying to rip the music, I couldn't get the program I linked to before to work right.  But if you check out EkszBox-ABX_v1.6, you should be good to go (just google it).  It's extracting everything to .WAV just fine, then you can convert to MP3 or whatever you want from there.

[JacksRag(e)]

I just ran through a major chunk of the game.  I thought I was nearly done, but I was pleasantly surprised.  It's getting tougher now, with more enemies and whatnot, but I'm well stocked and all.  And I really must say, the

(click to show/hide)

Hypnotize Big Daddy plasmids

are very very useful.  Not sure if it was spoiler worthy, but better safe than sorry. 
It's almost like a different game now, too.  Whereas before I had to scrounge and scrape for any ammo or first aid and hypos, now they're in fairly abundant supply.  I'm gonna have to play through this at least a couple more times just to do everything I wanna do.

[Pugnate]

I don't often use Widescreen for playing a game...

As far as I'm concerned, they have NO OBLIGATION to put the game in both modes. Whether they choose widescreen or fullscreen, that's their decision. They made the damn game -- most games force you into either Wide of Full; end of story.

That's pretty stupid, I am sorry.

Just about every game out there supports widescreen.

[scottws]

This isn't a movie.  It's a game.  Games are traditionally developed in a 4:3 environment.  I imagine Bioshock started out being developed in 4:3, then the big 16:10/16:9 revolution took place.  I expect for the developers to make the best of the current technology, but their mindsets will get in the way, as do most people's.

The Wizard of Oz once got a widescreen release.  That movie is from the late 30s, so it was 4:3 to begin with.  Guess what they did to make it widescreen.  Yep.  It's considered inferior to the 4:3 version now, of course.

You missed the point of my post entirely.  You said the reason that people were upset because they felt entitled to get the larger FOV because they paid more for their monitor.  I was merely debunking that notion.

Again, even though games and movies are different mediums that have been rendered to screen in very different ways until late, there is still an expected behavior.  That is why people are upset.  It has nothing to do with the cost of the monitor.

[MysterD]

Y'know, I really like the Photo/Research part of the game, w/ the Camera and all. I seem to be doing that, a lot -- and getting lots of bonuses and whatnot for doing soon.

I like the Invisibility-Stand-Still Skill I got, too.

[Cobra951]

You missed the point of my post entirely.  You said the reason that people were upset because they felt entitled to get the larger FOV because they paid more for their monitor.  I was merely debunking that notion.

Again, even though games and movies are different mediums that have been rendered to screen in very different ways until late, there is still an expected behavior.  That is why people are upset.  It has nothing to do with the cost of the monitor.

I'm sorry.  I just don't get the point.  Turns out I was wrong, according to that Joystiq interview.  The game was designed for widescreen.  I wasn't wrong about why widescreen people were upset though: they feel entitled to get a bigger view into the world than the 4:3 people.  The fact that I was wrong about the game's initial design makes them out to be even worse whiny bitches, no?  The game wasn't cropped top and bottom to make it fit in widescreen; it was opened up vertically to fit in 4:3.  If it's not the cost of the monitor, or that their superiority complex got dashed, then what is it?

I use widescreen, by the way.   It's a 16:9 TV, so I guess it even has slightly less vertical area than on a 16:10 PC monitor.  I'm happy to know that I'm seeing what I'm supposed to be seeing, by design, not a cropped view.  I don't begrudge others getting more view than the design intended.  If a FOV patch makes everyone happy, great.  They're lucky the Irrational people are going above and beyond what they need to care about.

I keep going back and forth between hating and loving the game.  Once again things degenerated into allowing myself to die a thousand deaths, in this one area where I had nowhere near enough stuff to fend off the hordes of splicers, plus a big daddy that got caught up in my insect swarm.  (I hate that I can't prevent BDs from getting attacked by the bees.  I love this plasmid otherwise.)  Fortunately, it got much better later.  What I really like are the exploration, discovery and development aspects.  I got to do a lot of that late last night.

One thing I thought I should pass along:  Get the damage upgrade for the crossbow, but don't get the bolt-breakage one.  The ridiculous increase in visual obstruction is absolutely not worth the benefit.

[idolminds]

Newest PCGamer Podcast: Bioshock stuff plus Ken Levine interview. Some of it is the same as what you read in the Joystiq Q&A but still worth a listen.

[Cobra951]

I finished the game, and although I think I wouldn't have nearly as much trouble during a replay on medium, I've decided to do it on easy.  It must be reflexes or something, maybe I just don't like the adrenalin thing so much anymore.  I want to go through without being in constant fear of imminent death, get to explore and enjoy the awesome world of Rapture.  Easy is definitely much easier, and seems perfectly suited for what I want to do.  I'm also dealing with the little sisters the other way, which has unexpected advantages.

(click to show/hide)

I felt awful about harvesting them, but I was following the directions from Atlas, who turns out to be the bad guy.  Saving them is sweet.  I love the cutscene.  In fact, the whole little sister thing affects me more than anything else about the game.

In the process, I've gotten used to the controller.  While it's still no kb/mouse, I can line things up pretty well by coordinating the 2 sticks.  I can see someone getting really good at this.  I think getting analog footwork slightly compensates for the inferior look/aim mechanism.

[Quemaqua]

Well, I finished the game tonight.  Holy hell, what a game.

I can completely see now what he was talking about in the PCG review when it said the end was sort of like Neo fighting a Mr. Smith made up of a bunch of tiny Mr. Smiths... but at the same time, it's somewhat baseless.  I went the "good" route, and the game's ending was unbelievably awesome.  But SHORT.  Seriously, it's like less than a minute long.  Still, it was beautiful and very much in line with the rest of the game.  It was great.  The last climactic battle, though... it was a little ho-hum.  Now it was *fun*.  I enjoyed myself.  Just thematically, like I said, I can kind of see where the PCG guy was coming from when he said what he said.  I don't feel as badly about it as he did, but it was definitely just a bit too "videogamey" for a game that was such high art up until that point.  Still, it *was* fun to play, and the last moments of it were just fucking great with the ending I got (not sure if the end of the fight is different along the other path.... there are several things in the game that I think would have to fundamentally change depending on your choices, not just the ending).  Anyway, I feel very sorry for anybody that didn't stick with this long enough to get to where it really and truly took off.  The whole latter half of the game was just brilliant.

So after completing the game, I'll tell you what my two biggest issues with it were:

A - The Vita-Chambers (free unlimited lives, basically) are really only a problem if you let them become one.  I used them when things were really hard and I just couldn't seem to get past something, but that only happened maybe twice in the whole game.  Generally speaking I tried very hard to stay alive, using my health packs like I would in any other game, and I felt it was balanced very well.  If you abuse the chambers, your game is going to be boring as fuck, yes; but if you make a conscious effort to play the game as though they weren't there, they serve only as a last-ditch way to continue without getting really frustrated... and THAT'S not so bad.  I think the mod that I would create wouldn't be to just make Vita-Chambers drain your finances when used, as I said before, it would instead be that you could only use them if you had no health resources left to you when you died.  Then it would keep you from being super frustrated at any point if you just couldn't seem to get beyond a certain point (and the game has enough variables that it can theoretically get a bit rough on you just because of random things in the game world... like any other game that adopts this kind of philosophy), but it wouldn't allow you to just abuse it to make your life easier.  I think this is the best solution to the way it currently works.  Still, it didn't deter my enjoyment of the game one iota because I simply refused to let it.

B - My biggest complaint with the game - those guys that occasionally sing a couple bars of "Jesus loves me".  I get why they put it in there, and had it been part of a scripted sequence just to add a little unsettling imagery to things, or... whatever, fine.  But as idle enemy chatter that plays from each of those "type" every few minutes?  Holy crap that gets more annoying that I can even express.  Seriously, I hope they address this in a patch.  It's the one thing that I truly feel is obnoxious to the point of my actual annoyance.  It isn't really even that bad, either, but it's definitely the top thing on my list.

But that's about it.  There were a couple other niggles I had here or there (one of which I can't talk about because it relates a heavy spoiler), but I've mostly forgotten these or they ended up becoming irrelevant as the game progressed.  So I guess they couldn't have been too important, eh?  All in all, I stand by what I said earlier: this is the best FPS I have ever played, bar none.  It took a little while to get going, there were a couple of things that didn't seem to perfectly jive with the high design and concept the game had, but it was emotionally engaging, had a great plot, was full of twists and surprises (that *still* got me even though I had the game spoiled for me by someone, because the twists couldn't just be summed up in a thread title and were still amazing to watch happen), and there were some incredible moments that just meshed perfectly with the characters and the world and the actions one would take and the emotions one would feel, in the end becoming these deeply memorable events in one's mind that could only be forever ingrained there after witnessing them.

Kudos to Irrational.  They deserve every measure of success for this.  I sincerely hope that the inclusion of SecuROM by 2K doesn't fuck up their financial success.  These people deserve to be showered with money.

Also, as a brief aside, I've been trying to get a list of all the licensed music in the game, along with several others at the Cult site.  It's been pretty good going thus far and I think we've got most of them... but there are a few that nobody can figure out.  I've tried my best and just not had any luck, though I did manage to include a couple in the list that others hadn't figured out.  So I asked Ken about it, and he responded saying that he didn't have a list handy but that he'd try to get one.  Awesome!  He also told me that he really wants to put together a bigger, better soundtrack with all the licensed stuff and offer that for sale (I mentioned to him that many of us would love one and he said he'd been talking about it over dinner with his wife and the "real" Joe McDonagh) but has to clear it with the brass first, so it may or may not happen.

For anybody that would like to help on the music front, here's the list of filenames that need to be identified (a few are duplicates) and the list of what's identified that's currently standing over at the Cult site.

The list:

20thcenturyblues.wav
Academyaward.wav
Beimir.wav
Beimirbistduscho*.wav
Brothersparedime.wav
Cohenscherzo.wav Dannyboy.wav
Godblesschild.wav
Howmuchdoggy.wav
Ifididntcare.wav
Ithadtobeyou.wav
Itsbadforme.wav
Jitterbugwaltz.wav
Justwalkingrain.wav
Lamer Bigband.wav
Lamer.wav
Liza.wav
Nightday.wav
Papalovesmambo.wav
Pleasebekind.wav
Riserapturerise.wav
Thebestthi.wav
Thebestthingsinl@.wav
Thepartysover.wav
Waltzoftheflowe.wav
Waltzoftheflower.wav
Waltzoftheflower?.wav
Wildride.wav
Worldweary.wav
Wrapyourtroubles.wav
Yourethetop.wav

What's identified:

    * Nutcracker (Waltz of the Flowers) - Peter Illyich Tchaikovsky
    * The Party's Over - Judy Holliday
    * Please Be Kind - Frank Sinatra
    * Beyond the Sea - Bobby Darin
    * Papa Loves Mambo - Perry Como
    * Jitterbug Waltz - Fats Waller
    * Night and Day - Cole Porter
    * It Had to Be You - (Priscilla Lane, Danny Thomas, or Dolley Wilson?)
    * The Best Things in Life are Free - Buddy De Sylva/Lew Brown
    * Wrap Your Troubles In Dreams - Bing Crosby
    * Brother Can You Spare A Dime - Bing Crosby
    * Oh Danny Boy - Bing Crosby
    * You're the Top - Cole Porter
    * It's Bad For Me - Cole Porter
    * 20th Century Blues - Noel Coward
    * World Weary - Noel Coward
    * How Much Is That Doggie In The Windows - Patti Page
    * Bei Mir Bist Du Schon - The Andrews Sisters
    * God Bless The Child - Billie Holiday
    * Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray
    * If I Didn't Care - The Inkspots[/quote]

EDIT - Just finished compiling my own version of the soundtrack.  66 tracks (though that's deceiving, a fair number of those are recordings/PSAs/ads from the game thrown in for flavor) and pretty well thought out if I do say so myself.  Just over 2 hours of music.  I'm a happy man.

[MysterD]

I have yet to finish Bioshock, but.....

Andrew Ryan, ATLAS, & Where MyD is At Currently SPOILERS -- LATE IN THE GAME SPOILERS

(click to show/hide)

I wound up killing Andrew Ryan -- it's like the only actual cut-scene in the game, which you have really no control over; and it's done in way that it deals w/ you being controlled like a puppet, in a very gripping storyline-ish way. Great freakin' scene.

Then, you find out Atlas doesn't exist; it's Frank Fontaine as some sort of alias -- ummm...a big WTF and a nasty twist, that you were being used the whole time, so Fontaine could take over Rapture.

I'm located at The Suites level, or whatever it is, going to find Fontaine.

I just got the antidote so Fontaine could STOP jacking my health bar down AND messing w/ my Plasmids so that they go "randomized".

But, yes -- the game's absolutely amazing.

My only major complaint is probably what Que's is -- no real freakin' penalty for dieing, regardless of what difficulty you pick. The game never penalizes you, the player, for dying, in any form -- you'll always be sent back to a Vita-Chamber. It's a nice touch for a gamer who just wants to finish the game, but there should be a penalty for death -- at least on HIGHER difficulties. I think the penalty should be all ALIVE enemies' health should be RESET to full strength, myself.

Even the System Shock 2 idea of "we take some money from you for you reforming" would work as a decent penalty in Bioshock, if you ask me. Though, I think RESETING the health of ALL alive enemies in the area is a much nastier twist -- it makes you really TRY to STAY the HELL alive so that you don't have to start again w/ trying to kill something tough like a Big Daddy.

I wish the game was a little more open-ended and all like say STALKER was, w/ having a few more side goals and things to do other than just the main quest itself, but really though -- no big deal. The game does give you choices, on some things -- such as deciding to free or harvest the Lil Sisters. And, w/ what kind of abilities you'd like to upgrade to. Oh, and I love the research thing you can do, to gain bonuses and stuff on enemies and for yourself.

Bioshock is a landmark shooter. Right out of the box, it's one of the best and most polished shooters ever made in just about every regard -- presentation, voice-acting, music, sound effects, graphics, gameplay, and combat. For me, Bioshock's up there w/ Quake 2, Deus Ex (original), FEAR and  STALKER -- which are some of my favorite shooters of all time.

I need to finish this one...
And, start up w/ running through it again, going a different route...

 
EDIT, 11:47pm Eastern:
I just finished it. Yup, it was great, to say the least.
Oh, and I got the evil ending, too -- heh! That ending was awesome! Short ending, but awesome.

I should play through again and try and get a much nicer ending.

[Quemaqua]

Weird happenings at the Cult forums.  As I believe I mentioned earlier, there was a big thread Ken had started talking about various issues.  He answered a lot of questions and was just generally being a nice guy to everyone.  People were pleased, though possibly flooding him with too many questions.  Suddenly today we all found that the thread had disappeared.  The mods don't know what happened to it either.  Unfortunately, most people are suspecting that the brass wasn't happy with some of Ken's candid answers about people's concerns and canned it.  If that actually happened, that just blows my fucking mind.  I really hope that isn't the case, but at this point it doesn't seem like anything else is too likely.

Either way, what a shame.

[MysterD]

You've got to be kiddin' me, Que....

2K took down his thread that he started?!?!?!?

EDIT:
Well, I'll be damned...
You have got to be kiddin' me....


Damn, you know something...
...Controversy always seems to follow Irrational, regardless -- whether it be EA taking the rights of System Shock from Irrational, the ad-placement issues in SWAT 4, the publisher pulling Irrational from making a new patch for Tribes: Vengeance, or any of the issues regarding Bioshock; it always seems to be something following them around...

[idolminds]

New episode of GFW Radio has a bunch of Bioshock talk. Its the second half of the show, and its spoilers galore so do not listen unless you've beat the game. I'm only going to listen to the first half and stop it before the bioshock stuff.

[Quemaqua]

Another GSpot interview with Ken where he talks about some of the recent happenings.  It's worth a read.

Also, nobody at Valve can play BioShock until they finish product.  Gabe Newell wants to play it real bad, and all I can say is I hope he does and then learns why he hasn't been making the games he thinks he has.  Maybe BioShock will teach him what the word "story" means and why a "plot" is not merely a sequence of events revolving around clustered gameplay gimmicks.

[MysterD]

Another GSpot interview with Ken where he talks about some of the recent happenings.  It's worth a read.

Also, nobody at Valve can play BioShock until they finish product.  Gabe Newell wants to play it real bad, and all I can say is I hope he does and then learns why he hasn't been making the games he thinks he has.  Maybe BioShock will teach him what the word "story" means and why a "plot" is not merely a sequence of events revolving around clustered gameplay gimmicks.

Maybe Gabe will learn how to actually COMPLETE a story and NOT leave you freakin' hanging every damn time, either.

It took HL2: Episode One to answer some of HL2's questions.

I'm sure it'll take HL2: Ep Two to explain some of the questions left unanswered from HL2: Ep One.

[Cobra951]

I finished my 2nd game.  "Easy" is the right option to tackle this if you care more about exploring and discovering than about fighting.  I wish I had approached it this way from the beginning.  I got to study and appreciate everything, from the art to the story, to the game's outstanding technology.  I also got to make the opposite moral choice, and it turned out to be the right one.  It's so unclear at the beginning what's right and what's wrong.

I'm well into my 3rd game, this time on the normal difficulty again.  The difference is, I've made it to the last level before the end boss without dying once.  The increase in challenge above "Easy" is very sharp, but now that I know what it takes to stay alive and in control, I can manage very well.  I also got to discover new ways of beating the crap out of splicers that are very satisfying.  If I play the game another time, I'm going to pursue more melee action.

I think a couple of trips through the game are essential, one in each of the moral orientations.  That also gives you a chance to pick up on things you may have missed before.  Beyond that, though, I think additional times won't yield nearly so much.  The claim from the advance press about every game being a different experience turns out to be hype.

[Quemaqua]

Only to a degree.  I'm a few hours into my 2nd run (again on HARD, this time going for the evil ending), and things have definitely turned out differently in a lot of circumstances.  I'm just plain better at the game now, so obviously I'm kicking a lot more ass in general combat-wise, but I'm focusing on different methods this time around and am definitely feeling a difference.  Trying to sort of build different character builds is interesting.  I opened up a ton of options the first time around but found myself using certain combos of powers and weapons frequently.  So now I'm trying different combos and the game feels quite different on many levels.  There are lots of little unscripted happenings that keep things fresh, too, though that's obviously only to a degree.  I mean, you're still just running around killing things.  That's never going to change.

[MysterD]

I think, yeah -- we can come up w/ all kinds of whacky character builds in Bioshock and we have at least two different endings and crazy ways to combo and kill enemies, so that's pretty sweet; especially since you can use the environment to your advantage majorly, too! Though, there's not a lot of different branching paths for the main quest and not many side quests to do in Bioshock, either.

Though, I really like the Research you can do in Bioshock, w/ the camera and all -- that stuff is great!! And the hacking skill is great, for turning turrets and security systems right back onto your enemies!

I don't think Bioshock world is as open to the player as the world of STALKER. Plus, the actual amount of pathways STALKER contains and number of different endings (there's SEVEN) is probably more than Bioshock's. Even the end boss-fight can be different, based on what route you take in STALKER -- you might have one, or you might not; depends on what road you take.

Bioshock's voice-acting, graphics, storyline depth, presentation, and level of polish is definitely beyond STALKER's -- that's for damn sure.

Regardless, I think both Bioshock and STALKER are great games.

I didn't finish my 2nd run-through of STALKER yet, but I did begin my 2nd run-through of Bioshock earlier today. Wo0t!!! I'm gonna try for the "good" path, this time!

[Quemaqua]

Well, BioShock never intended to be anything like STALKER, really.  That one was meant to be more open, BioShock never was.  It's more or less linear, just with the added bonus of lots of little nooks to explore... and you can go back to places you've already been, if you feel like you rushed and missed something.  STALKER's design philosophy is very, very different.

[Cobra951]

Que, I was searching around for info on Atlas Shrugged when I ran into the IMDB page on a movie that was supposed to come out in '08, but now may be shelved.  The interesting bit, though, is this forum thread under it, talking about Bioshock in relation to the novel, and objectivism.  Thought you might like to read it.

[TheOtherBelmont]

[Quemaqua]

Heh, great comic.

And thanks for the link, Cobra, but I don't have an IMDB account, sadly.  No forums for me.

[Cobra951]

Oh, yeah.  I remember that now.  Well, hang on a sec.

If this isn't cool, feel free to mod it away.  If you copy and waste it in the interim, that's your business.

Board: Atlas Shrugged (2008)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
how much is this like the game Bioshock for Xbox 360? if its like that i
wanna read it, otherwise it might be boring. that sounded immature but
im 19 and i can take a decent book, but yeah is it like bioshock?

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yes!, where are the philosophical first person shooter games anyway?
Maybe they wouldn't sell at first, but think of possibilities! They
could pre-sell a book by releasing a movie AND an Xbox game at the same
time!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow... I bet you only ever read strategy guides and the Halo "books,"
right?

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Bioshock (PC or 360) is based on the philosophy of objectivism, and not
the book "Atlas Shrugged". Since Atlas Shrugged is highly steeped in
objectivism, it will seem very much related to it, but not stoyline
wise. Since the world is rendered in pure art deco level design, you
could say it has more to do with The Fountainhead. As far as reading
Atlas Shrugged goes, it's very much a pain in the butt. The story is a
great concept, but it's VERY dry with tons and tons of pointless
descriptions. It's still worth reading at least once in your life, but
you'll find that Rand's books on objectivism are far eaiser to read (and
more enjoyable) than her fiction. Her fiction tends to be to dry, and
written more like a stage play then a novel. Just my two cents, but you
did ask.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bioshock (PC or 360) is based on the philosophy of objectivism
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not a gamer, so have had to rely on third party info (checked game
website and wiki). The game authors do not (and should not) make any
claim of basing Bioshock on Objectivism, although they referred to the
concept of using both utopian (AS) and dystopian (1984) societies in
creating their product - a far cry from any philosophical endeavor.

Atlas Shrugged is heavily plotted, actually quite well written, but does
contain much direct philosophizing that can deter even the most
determined readers. Rand was, of course, trying to make a point, and
didn't mind belaboring her points to get them to sink in. The result was
still a highly engaging and entertaining novel.

Bioshock is, first and foremost, a fast paced, first person shooter game
totally unrelated to Atlas Shrugged, except by its programmer's
curiosity in the concept of utopianism (one device used in Rand's
tapestry).

jt

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm not a gamer, so have had to rely on third party info (checked game
website and wiki). The game authors do not (and should not) make any
claim of basing Bioshock on Objectivism" - jhtabbott

The entire game is based in an enviroment built on the precepts of
objectivism. You will simply have to play the game to see it. The game
storyline is not directly about objectivism. It's just part of the
backdrop used for atmosphere to immerse the players character into the
story. Do not get my previous comment confused with the thought that the
game story is based around objectivism. If you play it, you will see
just how the concept is intergrated (and masterfully so) into telling
the story. I can give no real details on it without giving spoilers and
as this isnt even a Bioshock forum, I'd rather not do that. Sufice it to
say, I'm very pleased with Rands influence over the games design. It
really helped make a standard action based FPS feel more like an
interactive story. Thats something that hasnt happened in games for a
number of years now.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kodai,

I'll have to take your word for it. My impression was that in the
pre-story for Bioshock, an Objectivist style "utopian" society (that
later went awry) was imagined.

Your comments do make me curious about the game, but while I've got
nothing against video games (although I believe those that glorify
violence are a vast dis-service to generations), I rarely have time and
see some games can be 'virtually' addictive. If you'd care to share some
more detail about the game using IMDB's private messaging, spoilers
wouldn't bother me - mainly, I'm just curious about the Objectivist
backdrop. Thanks.

jt

------------------------------------------------------------------------
It should also be noted that the game features characters with the names
"Atlas" and "Fontaine"; a not-too-subtle reference to Atlas Shrugged and
The Fountainhead.

Both great reads, by the way. And I don't even particularly agree with
Ayn Rand's philosophies. But both books are truly amazing.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donbar22,

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It should also be noted that the game features characters with the
    names "Atlas" and "Fontaine"; a not-too-subtle reference to Atlas
    Shrugged and The Fountainhead.

    Both great reads, by the way. And I don't even particularly agree
    with Ayn Rand's philosophies. But both books are truly amazing.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fascinating.

I understand one of the main characters is named Andrew Ryan which is
easily (& I'm sure intentionally parsed:
ANDrew RYAN
AYN Drew RAN
AYN RAND /...rew

Rand didn't worry too much about subtlety herself, and had particular
fun in naming her villians.

jt
       
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bioshock captures the feel of it so well, that as soon as I saw the
intro movie I instantly placed it as drawing from Atlas Shrugged -

"I am Alexander Ryan, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man
entitled to the sweat of his brow? No - says the man in Washington, it
belongs to the poor! No - says the man in the Vatican, it belongs to
God! No - says the man in Moscow, it belongs to everyone! I rejected
those answers, I chose something different - I chose Rapture. A place
where the artists would not be silenced by the censors, a place where
the scientists would not be bound by petty morality, a place where the
great would not be constrained by the small. And with the sweat of your
brow, it can be your city too."

And playing it has born it out, there are references everywhere.


- "Who is John Galt?" is referenced
- "Wyatt's Torch" is referenced
- The setting, "Rapture" is meant to be analogous to "Galt's Gulch".
- The games main antagonist espouses a lot of Objectivist philosophy
throughout the game, and is a brilliant electrical engineer much like Galt.
- and others I won't spoil.

That said - how is it NOT like Bioshock... well.

- It doesn't take place underwater.
- The Objectivists, the people like Alexander Ryan, are the heroes - in
fact Alexander Ryan is meant to be analogous to John Galt, the hero of
the "Atlas Shrugged".
- There is very little action and nothing that deals with the
genetic-modification subplot. Bioshock may reference Atlas Shrugged, but
they are VERY different genres. The plots are totally and completely
different.

Basically Atlas Shrugged is a bloated novel that is at least 300 pages
longer than it needs to be, and is very philosophy heavy. It concerns
captains of industry that decide to rebel against a US government that
is quickly becoming more and more socialist. It is very dry and concerns
a lot of discussion of economics.

That said, it does have some brilliant and inspiring passages the whole
way through, and you will be pointing at the novel at times going "OH! I
remember that from Bioshock!"

[MysterD]

I think Idol would've bought this game...

This was one of the plan's for Bioshock's storyline, originally...

Levine: BioShock Originally About Cult Deprogrammer Erasing Lesbian Tendencies
by Chris Remo Aug 30, 2007 4:49pm CST

Recently, posts spread around the internet detailing BioShock's former setting of an isolated tropical island inhabited by genetically experimental Nazis, demonstrating just how much a game can change from initial conception to final product. That's nothing on what the game was about before then, however: a cult deprogrammer hired by the parents of a woman involved in a lesbian relationship to kidnap the daughter and rewrite her brain to steer clear of what her parents perceive as deviant activity.

BioShock's creative director Ken Levine detailed the bizarre former premise to Shacknews during an extensive interview about BioShock, its world, and its fascinating and deranged denizens. The interview is packed with spoilers, however, so here are his remarks presented in a safe setting:

"There was another story before that about a cult deprogrammer," Levine explained. "I don't know if you know what a cult deprogrammer is; it's someone who goes to take people out of cults to deprogram them so they know longer believe in it. It's a weird thing, because they're basically kidnapping people."

The game's protagonist was one such fellow. "We had people who hired people to deprogram their daughter who had been in a lesbian relationship," he continued. "They kidnap her and reprogram her, and it was a really dark person, and that was the character that you were. It went through a lot of changes. That wasn't really fleshed out, we just needed something, and I said, 'Maybe I'll develop this, maybe I won't.'"

It may seem almost unbelievable that a game could undergo such drastic changes, but Levine emphasized that the development principle at Irrational Games (now 2K Boston and 2K Australia) has always put design first. "A lot of the game design elements stayed the same,

[MysterD]

WARNING: Spoiler galore in here, if you ain't finished Bioshock yet. So, you've been warned.

10 things GamerDad HATES about Bioshock, FIVE things he loves about the game.

[Cobra951]

WARNING: Spoiler galore in here, if you ain't finished Bioshock yet. So, you've been warned.

10 things GamerDad HATES about Bioshock, FIVE things he loves about the game.

After playing the game 3 full times, and just getting though Fort Frolic on "Hard" (I just had to, LOL) I have to say that I agree with just about everything he said.  Some things didn't bother me as much.  I didn't think the picture-taking mechanism and results were poorly done.  But I did think that it could have been much better.  I think it's the lack of stats that creates a problem, not just here, but across the board.  It caused at least in part some of the other gripes here.  There's no excuse for not knowing if you can carry something you invent until after you invent it.  There's no excuse for not knowing what plasmids and tonics are waiting in storage, and what tracks they belong to, when you're trying to decide on which slot to buy next with adam.  I often would run to some other machine, like a gene bank, so that I could assess the situation, then run back.  In some places, this is easy, but not always.

About big daddies and you,

(click to show/hide)

I think he's right.  I thought my physical attacks should be stronger, and that physical attacks against me should be much weaker after I became a BD.  (I did not expect special attacks, though.)  Also, while I like the suit because it reduces damage, I hate the boots and the helmet.  The boots make this awful racket full-time, and I wonder if that affects the stealth abilities I spent time and adam building up.  (Does it?)  It's annoying in any case.  Then the helmet screws up your vision permanently.  There is no way back.  What I did after the first game is get the suit, then fully explore the level, and then go back through the previous levels to see what I missed.  After all that, then I'd go put on the rest of the gear.

The problems with the special edition do not affect me, but I'm definitely glad I did not spring for it.  The unforgivable problems with activation and SecuROM in general never would have affected me, because they are deal breakers.  If I wanted the PC version of this game, I'd have waited for it, just like I waited for HL-2 (and got it, minus Steam).

I'm also on board with Mike Anderson about the positives, except #4, which to be frank, I fail to understand.  I don't like to be led by the nose, period.  But neither do I like being so lost that I have no clue what to do next.  Bioshock handles this well, and you can even turn off that quest arrow, plus never press 'X' at the map screen, if you really want to use your own wits and memory.

About the good ending,

(click to show/hide)

I couldn't agree more.  It made me cry.  The contrast with dashed hopes and the remembrance of hopes that remain were overwhelming for me.  I think any good parent who gets fully into this game would be moved close to tears by the entire little-sister predicament.  The dramatic moments may take center stage, but just watching and listening to the little ones at any time takes me out of the usual shooter mood, into something much more personal.

I'm going to have to track down the full music soundtrack.  I don't have the PC game to extract WAVs from, but I do have the 3 Ws.

[Quemaqua]

It's nice to know that I identified several of those tracks he posted there at the end.  It's gratifying to be part of something.

Anyway, I disagree with about half of his negatives.

1 - I liked the research system and felt no need for it to do anything above and beyond what it did.

2 - I HEARTILY disagree with the annoying little fucks, including this guy, who complain about the special edition.  There was absolutely nothing wrong with it.  People got what they voted for and then extra stuff was thrown in there for good measure.  Not to mention we also got the orchestral soundtrack AND the art book (which people didn't vote for) for free, i.e. free for people who didn't even pay any extra money for the special edition.  So anyone with the nerve to complain can go kiss a hornet's nest, IMO.

3 - I disagree that the storytelling got fuzzy.  I was just as riveted after some of the game's revelations toward the end as I was at the beginning.

4 - Yes, the last boss wasn't that great.  Even Ken admitted he wasn't happy with it.  Still, I was more annoyed with the fact that it didn't seem to fit the game thematically more than I was disappointed in its mechanics.

5 - Yes, it was weird to have the game just sort of cut off after the endings.  I was expecting credits and such as well.  This deserved something on par with Dawn of Mana's end/credits sequence, which was tailor-made for fans of the series.

6 - Don't care much.  I knew all the upgrades and research bonuses I had (they're mostly the same across the board except for the secret tonics you unlock, and why do you need to know that's where they came from?), and never once did I feel the need to review that information.  The only reason I'd want it is because I'm a completist and love to have checklists of all the crap I've gotten.  It's hard to know you've gotten every last thing without a list of some kind.  Still, this is mostly a non-issue to me.

7 - I never once bought out security systems with cash.  Talk about a giant waste.  I either killed them, hacked them, or used an autohack.  To each his own.  As for the U-Invent and Gene Bank interfaces, I have no complaints.  It would have been nice to know your item quantities at the invent station, but it isn't as though it's hard to just drop the interface and look.  A non-issue for me.

(click to show/hide)

8 - I never really got the impression that you were becoming a full-on Big Daddy.  I mean, nobody hooks your nerves up to anything, and they were supposed to somehow be grafted to the suit.  And the good ending shows your hands as being perfectly normal.  I think Fontaine was just yanking your chain that you couldn't go back... you never really achieve BD status.  You just wear the stink, have the voice, and put on the suit so the girls will trust your ability to take care of them.  Maybe I'm misinterpreting the whole thing, but that's how it seems to me.  Had I felt like I was a real BD, I suppose I also would have expected a bit more.  As it stands, this too was a non-issue.

9 - I agree with what he said about the activation and such.  The stuff is bad, but I think the way people are going on about it is ridiculous.  Most of the people don't even know what the fuck it is they're complaining about.  Ignorance is obnoxious.

10 - SecuROM sucks, yes.  However, I think it showing up as a virus is more the fault of the virus program than anything else.  Update your software, deal with it.  AVG didn't complain for me once until I'd beaten the game and started in on game #2, and then a quick update solved the problem.



So yeah, I think a couple complaints are just bogus, but most are just personal opinion.  Either way, they're all far from major and do very little, I would think, to truly take any significant joy away from the experience even if you find them a little annoying.  That's pretty good, I'd say.  It's just too bad the team didn't polish off a couple of the little problems that could easily have been spotted (such as the inability to see your U-Invent items while at the machine).  But I still say people need to shut the hell up about the special edition.  I've bought many, many, many CE, SE, and LEs over the years, and this is faaar from the worst.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's one of the better.

[MysterD]

It's nice to know that I identified several of those tracks he posted there at the end.  It's gratifying to be part of something.

Anyway, I disagree with about half of his negatives.

1 - I liked the research system and felt no need for it to do anything above and beyond what it did.

I also liked the Research system, as well.

I hope they do expand more on it, in a sequel.

2 - I HEARTILY disagree with the annoying little fucks, including this guy, who complain about the special edition.  There was absolutely nothing wrong with it.  People got what they voted for and then extra stuff was thrown in there for good measure.  Not to mention we also got the orchestral soundtrack AND the art book (which people didn't vote for) for free, i.e. free for people who didn't even pay any extra money for the special edition.  So anyone with the nerve to complain can go kiss a hornet's nest, IMO.

I dunno, but even though I didn't buy the Special Edition, I side w/ Que -- it's not like they put in-game content in the Special Ed, either.

Fans voted, they got what they wanted.

Plus, 2K Irrational released The Art Book and Soundtrack for free download!

Final Battle Spoilers (About The Vita-Chamber In The Final Battle)...

(click to show/hide)

4 - Yes, the last boss wasn't that great.  Even Ken admitted he wasn't happy with it.  Still, I was more annoyed with the fact that it didn't seem to fit the game thematically more than I was disappointed in its mechanics.

I disliked the fact that this is the only part of the game, you actually can't hit a Vita-Chamber, if you die -- since you can actually hit one, any other damn time. I really like this Vita-Chamber concept, but don't like that there's no penalty for dying.

More Spoilers On The Actual Final Battle (Mentions Who You Do Fight, In The End)....

(click to show/hide)

But, say if they did allow you to hit the Vita-Chamber in this Boss Battle, I think Atlas/Fontaine should've fully rejuvenated in his Health and his Adam Supply.

5 - Yes, it was weird to have the game just sort of cut off after the endings.  I was expecting credits and such as well.  This deserved something on par with Dawn of Mana's end/credits sequence, which was tailor-made for fans of the series.

I don't mind NOT having The Credits roll, actually. Though, if they do that -- shouldn't it say on the screen like "Fin" or "End" or "Developed by 2K/Irrational" or some shit before the game cuts back to the main menu???

Yes, it's nice to see their names and stuff roll after you beat the game, but it's not like you can't roll them at any time. You can ROLL the Credits from off the Game Menu at any time. So, after you beat the game, go roll the Credits, if you want -- just click Credits!!! I did.

Though, if they did force the credits on you, after you finish the game, you should be able to escape them at your leisure -- especially if you seen the Credits roll before and/or you've beat the game for the 800th time so that you just wanna not watch the Credits. Yeah, you know -- sometimes, I just don't wanna watch them credits roll.

[Quemaqua]

MyD, watch the spoilers, mate.  There are people here who haven't even picked the game up yet.  I edited your post, but do try to be more vigilant.

[MysterD]

MyD, watch the spoilers, mate.  There are people here who haven't even picked the game up yet.  I edited your post, but do try to be more vigilant.

Whoops!

Thanks Mate.

[MysterD]

6. Interface Annoyances #1 - lack of inventory / player status. This hits on so many things, such as the inability to see bonuses gained from the camera system or from ‘Power to the People’ stations, amount of ammo and various tonics / plasmids, and so on.

That would've been nice, but it's no big deal, honestly.

Plus, if you want to see the amount of ADAM and MONEY you have, hit ESC on your keyboard. ADAM's in the lower-right hand corner, while MONEY's in the lower-left.

[Cobra951]

Buying out hacks is ridiculous.  Let's be honest here.  This never should have happened.  Even on Hard, the wallet ends up full after playing long enough.

It finally hit me that you can avoid the vita chambers entirely.  Since the game can be saved at any time, all you have to do is load up your most recent save when you die, just like any other FPS.  Save before big-daddy fights on Hard.  No more silly deaths without penalty.

(click to show/hide)

Although electric gel is infallible, it does run out after the monster stats scale up in the later levels, even after fully researching.  Those suckers can kill you with 2 quick shots.  I try to wallop them with something big before switching to the chem spreader, but I'm about out of gel now anyway.  Need to gather more stuff to invent some.

Those 10 things are niggles, really.  Some of them become more annoying after a few times through the game.  Still, they're not anything major, and I don't think they were meant as an indictment of the game, which really shines.

In reply to Que's comment on #8,

(click to show/hide)

Fair enough.  That makes perfect sense to me.  When I said you can't go back, though, I meant in the game.  There's no way to drop the BD gear once you wear it.

[Quemaqua]

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True enough, Cobra.  There isn't.  I guess it would have been nice if there were, but they do sort of beat into your head that once you do it there's no going back.  Or did you just mean like the boots and stuff?  I know you didn't like the noise, but I loved it.  You should have seen Julia mocking me while I was running around like an idiot just to hear my feet be all stompy.

[MysterD]

In Regards To #8....
Lots of spoilers of The Near-End Game AND End-Game Sequences, so be warned...

(click to show/hide)

Though, you need to get those Big Daddy characteristics to finish the game, to go on and get The Little Sisters to open all the doors, so you can make your way to fight Fontaine/Atlas in his Inner Sanctum.

About the Big Daddy, it was explained by -- what's the girl's name? -- that you were only going to take on a few traits to become one; not take the whole route. Just enough to get to Fontaine/Atlas.

About the clunky-sounds of being the heavy-footed Big Daddy, I loved it. I didn't find it annoying at all. I found it cool. It reminded of the Heavy-Sounding Mech you enter in Riddick, near the end of that game -- and that part was freakin' awesome! Since I been Plasmid'ed up like crazy and then I suddenly get to become a Big Daddy, I felt more powerful and stronger than ever before! Actually, I wished my character moved a little bit slower once I become a Big Daddy, to give me more of a feel of how powerful of a bastard I am!

Freakin' awesomeness.

It would've been ever freakin' awesomer if you could decide to become a somewhat Big Daddy (like you become) or a full-fledged Big Daddy, by the end of the game.

Actually, it would've been even more kick-ass if you could, near the end, decide to kill the doctor that tries to have you become more like a Big Daddy!

Still, regardless, this is one of the best games ever made.

Even the 2nd time through, now on HARD, I'm still loving it -- the combat itself and the combat system is just so freakin' great, to say the least. Keep them monsters comin', I'll mow them down!!! Mwahahahaha!!!!

[gpw11]

Read an article on Digg the other day about the differences in graphical settings and the difference between DX 9 and DX10.  Very little difference in those two cases, and what is different seems artificial.  Like, walking through the water in DX 9 leaves an ugly splash texture (you can see when walking backwards), while doing so in DX10 leaves a much nicer and more realistic fluid-dynamic trail.  I don't get it since that was something we saw in DX8 games.