Topic: The Official BioShock thread.

[MysterD]

Xessive they are both sports titles.

Did EA make them?

[Xessive]

Xessive they are both sports titles.

Haha FIFA 07 and FIFA 08? Actually wait.. I'm betting one of them's gotta be a Brian Lara game! hehe I know how you love cricket! Git yer shin-guards on!

YEah, that's true MyD. I'm just picturing him going mad trying to rediscover the formula for a successful System Shock genre game. Speaking of which, what is the official name of the genre?

Back to BioShock: I've just reached Fort Frolic.

[Pugnate]

Xessive one is Top Spin 2 and the other is Virtua Tennis 3.

[MysterD]

YEah, that's true MyD. I'm just picturing him going mad trying to rediscover the formula for a successful System Shock genre game. Speaking of which, what is the official name of the genre?

All of those games have FPS elements (obviously), action elements (melee combat and shooting), and RPG (building up your character's abilities/skills) elements....

I would consider Deus Ex, Bioshock, and System Shock 2 to be First Person Shooter/RPG; defiintely a genre-bender.

Though, since you probably often will use Biomods (Skills) in Deus Ex, Plamids (Magic) in Bioshock, and Psych Abilities (Magic) in System Shock 2, you ain't always "First Person Shooting."

Hmmm...Maybe it should be considered First Person Action/RPG.

[Quemaqua]

No, it shouldn't.  These games are FPS games with some interesting choices regarding your character's improvement.  They don't feel like RPGs in any way, even if there are elements commonly associated with those kinds of games.  When it comes down to it, 90% of the "RPG" skills just come down to more ways to kill people, barring a few which have more subtle uses that affect the gameplay (reading the email things in Deus Ex, hacking your way to extra goodies and certain areas in System Shock, etc.).  BioShock is in no way an RPG of any kind.  It's 100% FPS with some added elements.  SS or DE you could make better arguments for, but I still wouldn't call them FPS/RPGs.

[Xessive]

Xessive one is Top Spin 2 and the other is Virtua Tennis 3.

You tennis freak you! Hehe actually I'm playing VT3 too It's like the most elaborate version of Pong ever!

EDIT:
In response to the FPS/RPG discussion:

I'd argue that all of these games are pretty much Role-playing games, given that you play the role of a character in each. So in a philosophical sense they're all RPG's with FPS gameplay elements added in. Equally I'd say Monkey Island or Syberia are RPG's with mysteries and puzzles. Of course, I could just be taking the term Role-playing game too literally, but that's just how I distinguish "dice/pen&paper" originating games from others.

That's also why I'm really looking forward to The Witcher! From what I understand so far it will take the P&P style and mix in some action gameplay elements.

Back to BioShock: Lovin' it. I consider it an interactive action-thriller novel!

[MysterD]

You tennis freak you! Hehe actually I'm playing VT3 too It's like the most elaborate version of Pong ever!

EDIT:
In response to the FPS/RPG discussion:

I'd argue that all of these games are pretty much Role-playing games, given that you play the role of a character in each. So in a philosophical sense they're all RPG's with FPS gameplay elements added in. Equally I'd say Monkey Island or Syberia are RPG's with mysteries and puzzles. Of course, I could just be taking the term Role-playing game too literally, but that's just how I distinguish "dice/pen&paper" originating games from others.

IMHO, RPG's have TWO major elements:

1. You, as the Player, take on the role of a character (which you might create at the beginning of the game, if it ain't determined to you already by the developers), and you are given choices throughout the game, which can ultimately change the outcome of both main events/quests AND side events/quests.

2. The continuous improving and upgrading of your character's skills, abilities, and base-stats, during the entire course of the game.

That's also why I'm really looking forward to The Witcher! From what I understand so far it will take the P&P style and mix in some action gameplay elements.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to The Witcher.

Back to BioShock: Lovin' it. I consider it an interactive action-thriller novel!

Bioshock's flat-out awesome.

[Pugnate]

Well Deus Ex was listed under the RPG genre at IGN, Gamespot and PCG. It was a hybrid, but there was stat manipulation while the storyline gave a lot of freedom of  choice. Initially it felt less like an RPG, but as the game went on the game felt more like an RPG than a shooter.

System Shock was also listed under RPG at PCG and ther online publications. Again I guess it is due to the fact that you had skill points to invest in etc. The developers often referred to both System Shock and Deus Ex as RPGs.

Every critic calls Bioshock 100% a shooter tough.

[Xessive]

Every critic calls Bioshock 100% a shooter tough.

Hehe I think the lack of an inventory is the main reason It's true that it is quite action-packed though!

[Cobra951]

We've talked about this before, somewhere.  What is an RPG?  MysterD took a crack at it.  I would definitely call SS 1 and 2 first-person real-time RPGs.  I would not call Bioshock one.  I know there will be those who disagree in all 3 cases.

Fort Frolic is a fun level, Xessive.  Welcome to an evening with Sander Cohen.

[MysterD]

For anybody that would like to help on the music front, here's the list of filenames that need to be identified (a few are duplicates) and the list of what's identified that's currently standing over at the Cult site.

What's identified:

    * Nutcracker (Waltz of the Flowers) - Peter Illyich Tchaikovsky
    * The Party's Over - Judy Holliday
    * Please Be Kind - Frank Sinatra
    * Beyond the Sea - Bobby Darin
    * Papa Loves Mambo - Perry Como
    * Jitterbug Waltz - Fats Waller
    * Night and Day - Cole Porter
    * It Had to Be You - (Priscilla Lane, Danny Thomas, or Dolley Wilson?)
    * The Best Things in Life are Free - Buddy De Sylva/Lew Brown
    * Wrap Your Troubles In Dreams - Bing Crosby
    * Brother Can You Spare A Dime - Bing Crosby
    * Oh Danny Boy - Bing Crosby
    * You're the Top - Cole Porter
    * It's Bad For Me - Cole Porter
    * 20th Century Blues - Noel Coward
    * World Weary - Noel Coward
    * How Much Is That Doggie In The Windows - Patti Page
    * Bei Mir Bist Du Schon - The Andrews Sisters
    * God Bless The Child - Billie Holiday
    * Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray
    * If I Didn't Care - The Inkspots

EDIT - Just finished compiling my own version of the soundtrack.  66 tracks (though that's deceiving, a fair number of those are recordings/PSAs/ads from the game thrown in for flavor) and pretty well thought out if I do say so myself.  Just over 2 hours of music.  I'm a happy man.

This is the entire list of all of the ambient music, from Ken Levine himself that Major Nelson has acquired.

I don't know if what you have up there is all of it, some of it, or what have you -- so, check and compare notes, if you'd like.

Levine's Ambient Music List for Bioshock

[Pugnate]

We've talked about this before, somewhere.  What is an RPG?  MysterD took a crack at it.  I would definitely call SS 1 and 2 first-person real-time RPGs.  I would not call Bioshock one.  I know there will be those who disagree in all 3 cases.

Fort Frolic is a fun level, Xessive.  Welcome to an evening with Sander Cohen.

I agree with your observations. I think most would as well.

[Cobra951]

Thanks, Pug.  I keep wanting to go back to SS2 now, for comparison.

I had no idea where those plastered bodies in Fort Frolic came from, until I watched the last half hour or so of Bucket of Blood last night.  What a horrible movie.

That's weird about the complete music list (assuming that really is it).  It was never published before because Major Nelson lost it?  He's the only one who could get it from Levine?

[scottws]

I had no idea where those plastered bodies in Fort Frolic came from, until I watched the last half hour or so of Bucket of Blood last night.  What a horrible movie.

Completely unrelated to Bioshock, but I just wanted to point out that I love when stuff like that happens.  A recent Wired issue piqued my interest in the movie Blade Runner so I started watching it.  I immediately saw where the old game Syndicate got idea for those flying propaganda blimps with the big screens on the side that you see in between missions.

[Quemaqua]

Wow, that's an oldie right there.  I never did play Syndicate, though, just Syndicate Wars.

Also, yeah Cobra, I talked to Levine on the message boards and he told me that he didn't have a complete list on hand, and then he never got back to me on it because the whole mysterious Levine disappearance happened where they removed that thread that he started and we didn't hear from him again.  I haven't been back in a while now, so don't know if he showed up again, but I think that probably put a damper on his getting us the list.

[Pugnate]

haha I loved Syndicate and Bullfrog.

[MysterD]

Levine speaks on what they plan to do for DLC in Bioshock

Ken Levine on BioShock DLC
Creator wants to more replayability, not new narrative.
By Patrick Klepek, 10/16/2007
BioShock isn't exactly the kind of game you expect downloadable content for. There's no multiplayer and the storyline doesn't lend itself to simply dropping in additional "levels." At the same time, unless you're interested in unlocking all the achievements, there isn't much motivation to play through the game a second or third time -- but creator Ken Levine of Irrational Games 2K Boston envisions that as how he'll approach the game's DLC.

"Diablo II, to me, was a great model for an expansion, because it enhanced the original game, but also extended the game, too. I'm not a really big fan of expanding things just by linearly adding to the experience, adding a new campaign, as much as I am of enhancing the original experience and adding replayability to that experience," said Levine in a post-release interview in the latest issue of Games for Windows Magazine. "I think that certainly BioShock's combat experience is great, but it could be broader. I'm a little more confused as far as how to expand the narrative experience."

Levine says "a lot of plasmids got cut" during development, so you can imagine where his team might start mining for ideas on extending the BioShock experience in the months to come. There's no news on when we'll see the fruits of their efforts, but it's good to know they haven't forgotten those still enamored with Rapture.

The November 2007 issue of Games For Windows Magazine, featuring Gearbox Software's Borderlands and Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway on the cover, arrives in subscriber's hands starting today and on newsstands October 30.

Hopefully, if they do the DLC Content, they'll add a ton of kick-ass plasmids in one DLC; not just one Plasmid in a DLC here and then one more in another DLC; you get my drift.

[Quemaqua]

I'm definitely going to go through this again.  I was doing so, but I think I'm going to just stop, wait, and do it again in a few months, maybe once some DLC has come out.

[MysterD]

I'm reading an article from GFW in the new issue (Nov. 2007), which has an interview w/ Ken Levine.

Some interesting tidbits:

--Levine mentions that originally, he had one ending planned for the game. But, Greg Gobbi of 2K suggested to him that the game should have multiple endings and Levine liked that idea.
--Levine mentions that the end part of the game came quite late in development, were written quite late, and were built late in development.
--Levine says physics and graphics aren't the future of gaming; freedom is the future of gaming.

[Pugnate]

I'm definitely going to go through this again.  I was doing so, but I think I'm going to just stop, wait, and do it again in a few months, maybe once some DLC has come out.

Or after you have a new video card?

[Cobra951]

Freedom is the present of gaming.  It just doesn't get delivered often enough.

[gpw11]

So, um, this game doesn't run well for me at all.  Like, it's not even really a performance issue, but it almost 'hitches' at weird times.  It's strange because I thought it might be a bit too demanding, and yet the demo was fine.  What nvidia drivers was everyone using to play this?  That's really the only thing I can think of.

[Quemaqua]

I assume you updated those when you got your new card.  They were updated specifically for the game at some point.

Strange.  I don't get hitching at all.  I know you have a card slightly superior to mine, and my performance was quite acceptable.  I wonder what that could be.  I have some vague recollection of somebody posting about an issue like that, though, so a forum search over at cultofrapture.com might avail you something.

[gpw11]

Yeah, actually I installed new drivers right before playing Bioshock as well, and having just tried out Gears of War I think it has something to do with the new drivers (good for Crysis = bad for UE3 games I guess).  I'll roll back and see how that works.  One day.

[Xessive]

Yeah, actually I installed new drivers right before playing Bioshock as well, and having just tried out Gears of War I think it has something to do with the new drivers (good for Crysis = bad for UE3 games I guess).  I'll roll back and see how that works.  One day.

I think the driver that were listed as "good for Crysis" is the 169.09 beta. I've got them on now and GoW and Bioshock are fine.

The driver that was originally made for Bioshock was the 163.71 beta, and subsequently all WHQL drivers after that.

The only problem I had with the 163+ drivers was the widescreen 16:10 resolution issues. I'm back on my 17" at 1280x1024 so I have no idea if they've fixed the issue or not. I keep my 22" as my secondary, mainly for movies and stuff.

[MysterD]

It's probably worth mentioning that 2K Boston/Irrational Games Boston is not too far from where I work; on the same street, a little walk down.

[gpw11]

Interesting, I don't know what's really going on then (although I haven't rolled back the drivers yet), but I do know it's certainly something strange that's the issue, and just not enough power.  It's not even like a low frame rate, it's like the game just pauses for a second, the frames drop to zero, and then slowly go back up.  Might be an install problem, which could be somehow related to the problem I hvae with the FEAR patch not installing.

[Quemaqua]

Actually, I remember now - the GSpot review.  Gerstmann had the same problem.  I wonder what the deal is.  That was the first and last I ever heard of the issue.

[gpw11]

Interesting.  I was experimenting a bit earlier on today and I may have gotten to the bottom of it (may have).  It seems like if I switch any of the graphical settings (or first start up the game) it gets kind of 'bogged down'.  If I leave it for 30 sec or so it seems to work itself out, but if I keep playing it never quite 'catches up'.  Almost seems like pre-caching or something.  I could be totally wrong about this though.

How are the load times for everyone?  Because the load time when I first start the game and load a save here are just brutal, so that could signal something is amiss.

[Quemaqua]

They weren't instantaneous, but I don't remember them being too horrendous.

[Jedi]

what's funny is that D's post was all but ignored... hahaha I guess it wasn't worth mentioning then huh 

[Cobra951]

Good performance interrupted regularly by complete halts can be related to anything, misbehaved audio, virtual memory intruding, snags on the bus, video-memory swapping, what have you.  You may need to look beyond your video card and drivers.  I know this isn't directly helpful.  Just saying those keys you dropped may not be under the brightest streetlight.

[Xessive]

Haha D, can you run down and ask 'em about it?

[gpw11]

Well, it stopped doing it for the most part so I don't know what was up with that.  It seems almost like what I said before: if I let it sit for a few seconds after loading,it's fine.  Whacked.

To be perfectly honest, performance isn't quite what I'd like.  It's not bad by any means (always above 30fps, usually between 45-70) at 1024x768 with everything maxed.  I really can't expect anything more than that, but it's so atmospheric it almost seems like a waste to not be playing it at 1280x960.  Still, it seems great so far.

And that's pretty much that for now.  I have so much other stuff to play I'm putting this on the back burner for the time being.  It's great, but I still have to finish FEAR, get bored of Oblivion, and finish GoW.

[Jedi]

This is probably not the thread for this but well I'm here now...
This is another reason why I prefer the 360 (or any console given the nature of my rant) I mean what the hell is with drivers! You should (or at least you used to be) only be concerned with having the latest, now its the case of having the version of the driver that works best with your game!? Fuck that, give me a driver that works. And why beta? Is that because it only works with some games and not others?
I'm on the fringe of PC gaming now my last PC purchase was C&C3 before that... I guess WoW. If the PC platform has gotten to the point where you need different drivers for different games, and/or betas then screw it I'm not building my own system and I'll happily stay on the 360.
This is probably a bit over the top and a generalisation but from what I’ve reed it’s seems that you now need to update your drivers based on the game you want to play not just to squeeze another 5fps.

[Quemaqua]

I've rolled back drivers for a game maybe twice in like ten years.  It's far from common.  And consoles have just as many problems, they're just different ones, and often more aggravating because they're generally beyond the user's control to fix.  I say it's an even playing field in the end.

[Xessive]

When certain problems are fixed new ones may arise, possibly causing incompatibilities. It's is pretty common, and has always been the case with PC hardware and gaming. At least that's why I generally check the release notes before I update. That's the disadvantage of PC's not being so universal like consoles or Macs.

Although if we do reach a point where you have to install specific drivers individually for each game it would get so damn irritating.

[Quemaqua]

I highly doubt that anything even approaching that would ever happen.  In fact, I find the thought rather ludicrous.

[Xessive]

I highly doubt that anything even approaching that would ever happen.  In fact, I find the thought rather ludicrous.

Yeah, but considering how retarded much of the world is getting I firmly believe that anything, no matter how horrific, is possible.

The whole point of PC hardware being developed the way it is to avoid such a driver hell. Hopefully we won't reach that level of redundancy. Drivers are meant to make hardware more versatile.

Back to Bioshock; has there been any word on a patch? Not that the game is buggy, I'm just curious, but maybe something for the Widescreen cropping issue.

[Jedi]

Yeah if the trend I'm seeing continues then we'll see drivers for particular games, I'm not saying we're there yet, just that the situation appears to be worse now that it was 12 months ago. It just seems that drivers have become worse or something.
Also I'm not saying consoles are without issues just that this BS with drivers is somethig I don't have to be concerned with, that said I'm looking at building a new PC just to play around with OC it and such.