Topic: I am frightened and confused by Windows Vista

[WindAndConfusion]

So I need to buy a computer for my mom. I also need to buy it quickly. I notice that all the beige boxes today ship with Windows Vista, which comes in at least four flavors.

I've read a lot of things about Windows Vista, most of them negative, but I didn't pay much attention because it all seemed peripheral and irrelevant. Thanks to that, now I have some questions.

• Why are Microsoft such assholes? Why are there four different versions of this crap?
• I'm planning to get my mom Windows Vista AIDS, because I think she'll need a lot of help. Is this the right version for her?
• I'll need to set it up, too. What software do I install to keep it safe from malware, and where do I get a crapware removal program? (I'll be buying from Dell or someone like that, so I'm sure the desktop will be full of "Special Offers!")
• I'll need to know a fair bit about Vista, since I'm sure I'll have to troubleshoot it over the phone. Is there anywhere I can read about Microsoft's latest bullshit? (Vista is MPAA-compatible, isn't it? I'm sure a whole lot of intolerable crap goes along with that.)

[Jedi]

Ok... head here the guy's not a total MS tool but if all you've read is negative then you really need to read this.
Regarding the different versions try this page of the above review but simply put you can ignore the business editions, probably the N editions too depending on where you live (their EU only), don't touch Starter or Enterprise, Ultimate is killer expensive and is mostly just extra bells and whistles you can live without. So you're left with 2 versions Home Basic and Home Premium.

The site also did a number of tool tips for Vista not long ago (like last month) you might find them handy.

MS has included some software and has released some more that'll help protect the PC from malware etc but at the end of the day you're better off installing 3rd party of software that covers all basses, like Nortons or something but Adaware is still good too.

[shock]

If you are getting it from Dell, have them send you out a copy of the OS.  All you have to do is request it.  With that, you can reformat it with Vista and get rid of all of the crap.

I bought a Dell XPS M1210 laptop about a week ago and just got it. I immediately reformatted and it dropped running processes from 80 to about 40.  Not bad.

Beyond that, Vista isn't too bad. It's nothing compelling, for sure, but it's not altogether different from XP under most circumstances that I have encountered thus far.

[scottws]

Well I don't know how well they work on Vista, but Windows Defender is a good anti-spyware tool and CCleaner is a good crapware removal program.  I don't think it will help much with all that pre-installed BS, but it helps clean up the registry.

I don't know if Vista has it, but XP has Remote Assistance and, if you have the Professional version, Remote Desktop.  If the version of Vista you end up getting has Remote Desktop, definitely take the time to set it up so that you can troubleshoot it remotely.  You'll basically have to make a user (preferably and administrative-type user you set up for just yourself) and make it part of the Remote Users group.  You'll have to add Remote Desktop to the firewall exception list and open TCP port 3389 in the router's firewall (if she has one).  You'll also want to take steps to ensure that the Administrator user isn't enabled for Remote Users by default, and enable only the strongest encryption types.

What I gave you is mostly for XP.  Some of that might be a little different on Vista.  If she doesn't end up having Remote Desktop, Remote Assistance can still be useful.  I did that with my brother's computer.  There isn't any setup with that, but you have to help the person get you invited to a Remote Assistance session (easiest if both of you have the newest version of Live Messenger and an active account on it).

[WindAndConfusion]

I've read a lot of things about Windows Vista, most of them negative...

...if all you've read is negative then you really need to read this.

How, you, what?

[Jedi]

How, you, what?

What I meant to say was if you've read a few things and much of it has been negative, read the article (the one I linked) and think of it as a more rounded review of the OS, that's all I meant. It seems to me that everyone’s getting the one side of the story ie the negatives and their either ignoring the positives of they just don't read enough about it to see the positives.

[Quemaqua]

Or they see the positives and are convinced that the positives can in no fashion outweigh the giant stinking ball of flaming negatives.

[Jedi]

Or they see the positives and are convinced that the positives can in no fashion outweigh the giant stinking ball of flaming negatives.

Yeah that must be it... becuase Vista is by far worse than anything ever released in the history of man. What was I thinking. 

[Quemaqua]

That isn't what I said.  I was stating that plenty of us are informed about the positive aspects of the o/s and simply think that the negatives far outweigh them.

[Jedi]

That isn't what I said.  I was stating that plenty of us are informed about the positive aspects of the o/s and simply think that the negatives far outweigh them.

I know I was being sarcastic.  But the point of me being in this thread wasn't to bitch about or defend Vista, but to help W&C, so I'm done.

Cheers,

[Quemaqua]

I hear you.  I wasn't trying to bitch either, I just thought it sounded a bit too much like you were saying anybody that didn't like Vista just didn't like it because they were misinformed or something.

[Xessive]

I thought I didn't wanna switch to Vista because I was afraid of change, but it just intimidates me. Between the very demanding reqs and the crap it comes with I just have no desire to switch to it. It just wouldn't be an upgrade.

[iPPi]

I installed Vista Business onto my laptop and so far it's been running perfectly smoothly and stuff.  I didn't have many problems, though I had to find some appropriate drivers and stuff and AVG seems to give an error on a fresh reboot of the system.  Other than that, it's pretty smooth

[shock]

So much Vista hate here.  I have been using it for about a week now, and I really can't complain all that much.

Is it a revolutionary step forward?  Of course not.  Is it a bit bloated?  Yes.  It's not a breakthrough, but it's no Windows ME either.

[WindAndConfusion]

So much Vista hate here. 

This is why.

[Jedi]

This is why.

I'm surprised people in Auckland can even spell Vista... I think its pretty funny seeing how Auckland Uni' has some much bloody money anyway!

[MysterD]

I'm surprised people in Auckland can even spell Vista... I think its pretty funny seeing how Auckland Uni' has some much bloody money anyway!

Anyone call spell BETA.

[Jedi]

Anyone call spell BETA.

No D, just no.

[Ghandi]

No D, just no.

That made me laugh, I've seen that exact thing posted so many times.

[Cobra951]

This is why.

As a result, both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray content can now be decrypted and played without image downgrading or blocking by the OS, and unprotected content is already appearing in the usual locations like BitTorrent streams. The fact that the legally-purchased content wouldn't play on a legally-purchased player because the content protection got in the way was the motivating factor for the crack. The time taken was about a week. As a result, all of the content-protection technology (at least for HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray discs) is rendered useless. All that remains is the burden to the consumer. It lasted all of one week.

I found that part the most amusing of all.

Anyway, while this article has its own glaring slant, I think it sheds good light where it's needed.  Microsoft would like nothing better than for Vista's inner restrictions to be kept out of the public view.  They make such bad PR.  I knew there was an overbearing emphasis on content protection.  I didn't know too many particulars, until now.  According to this, the entire OS is subordinated to establishing the pedigree of the hardware, software and data that it deals with.  It cares much more about validation than about performance.  I'd love to see less negative perspectives on Vista, but I would not consider Microsoft's (or any affiliate's) to be a valid rebuttal.

[WindAndConfusion]

OK, so I'm gonna buy my mom any cheap computer I can find, strip the crapware, add malware protection, configure Remote Desktop/Remote Assistance, and install a rootkit.

The rootkit is necessary so my mom can have control over a computer that she purchased. Coincidentally, it will allow me to shit all over Vista's state-of-the-art content protection.

[Cobra951]

That eye opener got me searching around.  Which rootkit?  Apparently, there was a proof of concept with the beta of Vista which has since been blocked by MS.  Then I ran into something they're calling a bootkit.  But that too is a proof of concept, not something neatly packaged for the masses to get control back over their own systems.

[scottws]

I might actually end up picking up Vista in the near future.  I just upgraded to 4 GB of RAM (DDR2 prices have dropped considerably), but Windows doesn't detect but 3 GB of it.  It turns out that XP only has up to 4 GB of address space total, and that includes virtual memory addresses.  Also, apparently any devices count against this limit as well, and they always have but we've never seen it because the addresses used by the devices were not interfering with the amount of memory installed.  So my 4GB of physical RAM + my 3 GB page file + video card + RAID card, etc is simply to much for XP to address.

Maybe Vista 64-bit will remedy this.

Here's something else I found:

"increaseuserva Megabytes
Specifies the amount of memory, in megabytes, for user-mode virtual address space. This variable can have any value between 2048 (2 GB) and 3072 (3 GB) megabytes in decimal notation. Windows uses the remaining address space (4 GB minus the specified amount) as its kernel-mode address space."

In other words - the system can only use 3GB MAX of application space (what the system info screen reports).   The other 1GB is used by the KERNEL for drivers, etc.

More...

    In the absence of the /PAE switch, the Windows memory manager is limited to a 4 GB physical address space. Most of that address space is filled with RAM, but not all of it. Memory-mapped devices (such as your video card) will use some of that physical address space, as will the BIOS ROMs. After all the non-memory devices have had their say, there will be less than 4GB of address space available for RAM below the 4GB physical address boundary.

Ian Griffiths offers a more detailed explanation:

    To address 4GB of memory you need 32 bits of address bus. (Assuming individual bytes are addressable.) This gives us a problem - the same problem that IBM faced when designing the original PC. You tend to want to have more than just memory in a computer - you need things like graphics cards and hard disks to be accessible to the computer in order for it to be able to use them. So just as the original PC had to carve up the 8086's 1MB addressing range into memory (640K) and 'other' (384K), the same problem exists today if you want to fit memory and devices into a 32-bit address range: not all of the available 4GB of address space can be given over to memory.

    For a long time this wasn't a problem, because there was a whole 4GB of address space, so devices typically lurk up in the top 1GB of physical address space, leaving the bottom 3GB for memory. And 3GB should be enough for anyone, right?

    So what actually happens if you go out and buy 4GB of memory for your PC? Well, it's just like the DOS days - there's a hole in your memory map for the IO. (Now it's only 25% of the total address space, but it's still a big hole.) So the bottom 3GB of your memory will be available, but there's an issue with that last 1GB.

Here's a good image that helps describe it:

[WindAndConfusion]

Scott - if you have 4 (3) gigabytes of RAM, why do you even need a pagefile? And yeah, the 64 bit versions of Vista raise the memory limit - although, as another "fuck you," the exact amount of RAM you're allowed to have depends on how much money you pay to Microsoft. Vista Business, Enterprise, and Ultimate support at least 128GB; Home Premium supports 16GB, Home Basic up to 8GB and the third-world crippleware version ("Starter") supports only 1GB. (Also, Starter only comes in a 32-bit version.)

Cobra - vbootkit was actually what I had in mind, but I really need to research the rootkit thing more thoroughly before I bother to try doing it.

Lastly, something I realize about Vista: All the different versions (except for Enterprise) ship on the same physical media. So if you buy Home Basic, the disc also contains Home Premium, Business, and Ultimate versions. You can "upgrade" by paying Microsoft some money, getting a new license key, and installing the extra features from your Home Basic disc.

So, uh, wait a minute. If I did "something" and tricked Vista into installing Ultimate when I've only paid for Basic, did I do anything illegal? (I'm sure this violates the EULA, but that is at worst a breach of contract.) The only thing I can think of is that I'm copying Premium software onto my harddrive when Microsoft has only given me permission to copy Home Basic software.

Then again, I think federal copyright law guarantees me the right to at least one backup copy of any copyrighted work I own*, regardless of contracts. Can my harddrive be the "one backup copy"? What if I'm obviously not using it for backup purposes?
*Not sure about this, although I think I've read the statute.

Of course, rather than actually think through the legal issues, I'm pretty sure any judge who saw this case would just crack me in the forehead with a gavel.

[scottws]

I've always heard that Windows doesn't work right with no page file.  At least that's what the people on Anandtech say.

As far as you comments about backing up, I see where you're going with that, but you'd never win such a case in today's legal environment.  Fair use almost doesn't exist anymore.

[Cobra951]

Windows (up to XP for sure) needs virtual memory.  It does not behave just like extra memory, and I think a lot of stuff would break without it.  What would be nice if it were possible to set up a paging file on a virtual drive (in RAM).  You'd think that by now they'd have a solution that bypasses mechanical devices altogether.

If one wise man says that the little guy can't get justice in this legal climate, and another wise man says that law without justice is tyranny, then I say fuck tyranny.

[scottws]

Well you can buy a solid state hard drive.  It's not as fast as regular RAM, but it's a whole lot faster that a standard hard drive.  Most people say that the cost of the technology just isn't worth it though and the answer is always just to buy more RAM.

[Cobra951]

I once worked for a company that provided MMI solutions.  Part of the deal were these devices which in essence were PCs built for extra ruggedness.  They had no moving parts at all.  They used flash-RAM drives.  But they behaved just like standard PCs for us, the programmers.  We had to be careful with write cycles, though.  You can read flash all you want.  Writing to it indiscriminately at PC speeds would fry it, especially 12 years ago.

So yeah, I agree that this can be done, but still.  With 4 GB of RAM now affordable, there really should be some process that would keep all memory in the silicon where it belongs, and off of the platters.  (4 GB of RAM!  32 bits of addressing exhausted.  Damn.)

[scottws]

I'm wondering now if Vista 64 would even solve the issue.  There's a chance my motherboard chipset only supports the 4 GB max total for addressing.

[WindAndConfusion]

Well, I got the computer. The catch is that a) it took all day to get into and then back out of the store, and b) I'm going to spend most of a Friday evening configuring it.

On the other hand, I can't believe you can buy a not-stripped-down dual-core computer for less than $600.

[scottws]

I can.  They open the case and throw all their garbage in there.

My brother had a new "sweet" Dell a few years ago.  It didn't even have an AGP or PCIx slot!  And the PSUs are all non-standard pieces of junk that barely power what you have in there.  My old HP computer has a 145W PSU.  And you can't replace it with a better one because it's a proprietary piece that attaches to the inside of the case on some weird hinge and is really skinny.

[WindAndConfusion]

Great. Networking problems, that can't be resolved until tomorrow, forcing me to stay here an extra night.

Windows Vista, along with three accidents, two graduation ceremonies, some very heavy traffic, and a whole lot of other shit, has successfully killed an entire Friday.

Bitches.

[scottws]

Yeah, that's one thing that kind of scares me about getting Vista, especially the 64-bit version.

I know how to configure XP like the back of my hand.  But I have no idea about anything with Vista.

[WindAndConfusion]

My brother had a new "sweet" Dell a few years ago.  It didn't even have an AGP or PCIx slot!  And the PSUs are all non-standard pieces of junk that barely power what you have in there.  My old HP computer has a 145W PSU.

The computer I got was almost exactly this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883103052
Although there are some differences. The (AT standard) PSU is 80 watts more powerful, they lied about the mouse being optical,
one PCI E x16 slot (unused - it's an nForce4 with integrated graphics), one PCI E x1 slot, one used and one unused PCI slot, bog standard AT* form factor. 1GB RAM with two empty slots. Also, it was $420 instead of $487.

Notice that I bought a computer superior to one on Newegg, for $67 less. Where would you find a much better deal than Newegg?

Fucking Best Buy.

[shock]

Vista is already pissing me off. Severely.

I'm trying to use it's built in Disk Management utility to shrink a partition, so i can make a new one with Ubuntu and dual boot.  The piece of shit won't let me shrink the 80gb drive (60gb free) by more than 3gb.  It's because of all of the bloatware on the thing.  I turned off system restore, and that let me shrink it an extra 500mb.  Turning off Recycle Bin storage got it up to nearly 4gb.    However, I don't have time to fuck around and find things to disable.  I'm just going to reformat it with Ubuntu and put Vista back on later.

[beo]

as of today, i'm running vista.

this really isn't through choice, but today the power went out down our street, and took my computer with it. my system registry file corrupted on the outage, which completely fubared that windows install. i'd lost my original win2k disk, and the back up disk i had refused to play ball. i phoned round town looking for a copy of XP (as the lesser of two OS evils), but nowhere had it. i relented and went for home basic. i could of waited for XP to come back in stock, but i am far too impatient, and considering i'd probably install vista at some point anyway, i thought i might as well go for it.

the install went pretty much okay, apart from one major hicup. basically it couldn't assign IP, DNS, gateways, etc. automatically - even though my PSP / XB360 / other PC's can. i spent close to an hour with support, which told me all sorts of shit, such as my router must be incompatible (?!), before messing about myself and getting it going. i'm guessing this must be something to do with their security at the cost of functionality approach.

anyway, other than that it's not too trerrible. i can play all my videos and music, every app i've tried to install so far works, and the driver installation stuff works pretty well. although, coming from win2k (and hating all the XP babysitting stuff), this is the most irritating OS ever. installing a program requires you to confirm that you really want to run/install the program at least twice, and that irritating as fuck, "low disk space warning" thing is still there and pops up every few minutes. i'm hoping once i find my way around it, i'll learn how to turn all that kind of shit off.

for the average user it's probably a step in the right direction. from all the security stuff and messages asking me if "i'm really sure i want to do that", it's going to be a lot harder for stupid people to fuck it up with malware, or delete important things. for people like me, it's still quite usable - just a bit irritating.

[scottws]

I think there is a registry edit to get rid of the low disk space warning.  I have a partition just for my swap file (so I wouldn't have to worry about it fragmenting and being not defragmentable and spreading around the rest of my hard drive), and the swap file is almost the same size as the partition.  So I was getting that error all the time.  I found a way to disable it and it never bothers me now.

I'm still contemplating the move to Vista 64-bit, but I'm not sure I really want to right now.

Edit:  Well, I couldn't find anything about how to disable the low disk space thing in Vista, but there is an Experts-Exchange question about it.  If you know anyone who has access, here you go:

http://www.experts-exchange.com/OS/Microsoft_Operating_Systems/Windows/Windows_Vista/Q_22547481.html

[Raisa]

i'll go with vista maybe a year from now or something. i used it on my friend's computer.. but yeah.. maybe by then MS would've ironed out some of the kinks?