Topic: Manhunt 2 rated "AO" by ESRB

[idolminds]

Wow.

Of course the bad part is most stores simply wont carry AO games. Looks like you'll have to find a shop online and order it.

[wizall]

Well, they do have 30 days to make some changes, but my understanding is that the game is so chock-full of "casual sadism," as the Brits called it, that it would take a massive over haul to knock it down.  Also, I suppose, miming the strangling the of someone further ups the experience.

[NatchDan]

Manhunt 2 also banned in the UK.

[idolminds]

Its funny...I had no interest before but now I want to play it just to see why it got this ratiing/ban.

[gpw11]

If it is anything like the first it probably got banned for being totally boring.

[scottws]

I was thinking the same thing, but more along the lines of "Well, being rated AO will have no effect on sales because they would have been zero anyway."

[Jedi]

I was thinking the same thing, but more along the lines of "Well, being rated AO will have no effect on sales because they would have been zero anyway."

Hahaha! They were pretty tough on the 1st game in NZ, they banned it and started policing a few popular (NZ) auction sites to make sure people weren't importing and selling it there.

[MysterD]

So, I wonder what Rockstar will do now, now that the game got nailed with the "AO" tag...
Remove ultra-violent content to get it down to "M" so retailers can sell it?
Sell the "AO" game as intended through other avenues like through online distribution???
Maybe the publisher themselves will sell the game directly to gamers for a "retail" purchase (instead of through a store)?

Hmmm...Who knows....

[beo]

this is stupid on several counts.

first off, banning a game outright is ridiculous. i'm sure the content is no worse than what you see in saw or hostel - but the fact that it's a computer game, and "games are for kids", means that adults aren't allowed to play this. ridiculous. why should a game, that is clear in it's content, be banned? surely the adult consumer has the right to make up their own mind.

the US version of what's going on is stupid because of the fact that most stores won't sell AO games. how do they expect ratings systems to work, when stores refuse to stock products that have been rated appropriately? stores need to actively support the ratings by providing games for adult consumers, instead of forcing developers into watering down adult content to get it passed off as something less. as for the actual rating of the game as AO, i think it's a good move. this game plainly isn't for children.

[Jedi]

first off, banning a game outright is ridiculous. i'm sure the content is no worse than what you see in saw or hostel - but the fact that it's a computer game, and "games are for kids", means that adults aren't allowed to play this. ridiculous. why should a game, that is clear in it's content, be banned? surely the adult consumer has the right to make up their own mind.

Funny you should say that, in Aus there's no game rating higher than R16 for the very same reason - no one over 16 plays games. So those games get banned ie a GTA game fell victim to this. I don't know if its the same in the UK but it's not here in the NZ I've only ever seen us ban one game that's Manhunt oh wait and postal too I think.

Any way game stores etc need to actually enforce the age ratings on games much like your local video store would refuse kids from renting an R18 movie. If they do that then they should have issues selling AO games.

[sirean_syan]

Well damn. This is the first time this has happened to a game with a relatively high profile, isn't it?

I actually kinda enjoyed Manhant. It was pretty screwed up, but the game itself worked well enough... at least I thought.

[gpw11]

This is certainly interesting.  It's strange to look at how America - by all means a much more 'puritan' society pretty much has a policy against outright banning the sale of controversial entertainment, but that doesn't transfer over to Europe or other Western countries.  I mean there is the acceptance of sexuality vs violence in America, but I can't really think of any sexual content recieving a full ban (although there was that indecency lawsuit against some mainstream porn company for producing a murder/rape video a few years ago.  I don't know if that equals a ban or a fine.  It'd be interesting to see).

But you bring up a good point with the retail aspect.  For the most part it makes a lot of sense to not stock games rated AO.  The real demand (those willing and ABLE) to buy the product is but a fragment of what it would be were the same game to be rated E or even M.   Considering the low profit margin on actual games, it makes a lot more sense to not waste the shelf space and instead stock another copy of The Sims or Final Fantasy.   That's for smaller retailers and specialty stores such as EB/gamestop. 

Where it gets kind of whacked is with large cross-market stores like Walmart.  We all know Walmart refuses to stock games/movies with certain content.  It's not for the same reason at all, since they have easily enough of a float in order to make the risk analysis on stocking that item easily tip in favour of doing so.  It's more because of the moral value reason behind it, but the question is - why is that even there?  PR, shareholders, or genuine concern?

As a side note, when Soldier of Fortune first came out there was a big thing over it here.  I don't remember the details as I didn't play games much (and pc games at all) at the time, but as I remember it in order to sell it you had to have it in a glass case behind the counter.  Not a huge deal, and I don't know if that ruling was thrown out, but interesting none the less.

[Quemaqua]

I second what beo said, and like Sy, I thought the game was pretty good.  Nothing spectacular, but the subject matter was interesting and nicely presented, and the game was fun enough.

[poomcgoo]

This is strange to me, because it seems like the "M" rating is a lot different than the "M" rating 10, even 5 years ago.  Obviously graphics have gotten a lot better and likewise violence has gotten more realistic/vivid, but 5 years ago the number of games using the word "fuck" or showing nudity you could count on one hand.  When San Andreas came out, I was surprised it managed an "M," seeing as every other word was "fuck" or "nigger," let alone everything else that was already a part of the GTA series that pushed the envelope.  A lot of shit passes for "Mature" now.  How bad can this game really be?

[MysterD]

This is strange to me, because it seems like the "M" rating is a lot different than the "M" rating 10, even 5 years ago.  Obviously graphics have gotten a lot better and likewise violence has gotten more realistic/vivid, but 5 years ago the number of games using the word "fuck" or showing nudity you could count on one hand.  When San Andreas came out, I was surprised it managed an "M," seeing as every other word was "fuck" or "nigger," let alone everything else that was already a part of the GTA series that pushed the envelope.  A lot of shit passes for "Mature" now.  How bad can this game really be?

There is a problem w/ the ESRB's rating system. It's too closely designed similar to the MPAA's movie rating system, I think, for one.

I don't think in either system, there's ENOUGH RATINGS there from the ESRB or the MPAA.

If you ask me, Mature (17+) and AO (18+) are TOO CLOSE together, age-wise -- this is my same beef w/ the MPAA's movie ratings, in which R and NC-17 are aged too close together. (Actually, R and NC-17 are the same age, it's just w/ an NC-17 rating, no kids are admitted to the theatre whether they have a parent with them or not.) Personally, I think R should be lowered to either 15 or 16. NC-17 should be turned right into NC-18, instead. And, I think there should be another rating for "Adults Only" at 21+, as well.

Back to the ESRB -- How do you go from Teen being 13 to Mature being 17 to then the highest rating "AO" being 18?!?!? Why are T and M so far apart, in the first place? And why are M and AO so damn close? That's just pointless. Shouldn't there be another rating placed there, somewhere. I THINK SO. I think that's the problem.

There should be a second higher degree M rating, if you ask me. First, there need to be some adjustments. The original M should be adjusted to either 15 or 16, I think. And then, there should be a Higher M rating aimed be 18+. Now, AO makes sense, in name and all -- it should be the highest rating, just by its name and all. But, the age seems wrong to me. "AO" should be aimed at 21+.

the US version of what's going on is stupid because of the fact that most stores won't sell AO games. how do they expect ratings systems to work, when stores refuse to stock products that have been rated appropriately? stores need to actively support the ratings by providing games for adult consumers, instead of forcing developers into watering down adult content to get it passed off as something less. as for the actual rating of the game as AO, i think it's a good move. this game plainly isn't for children.

This is a major problem. There should be a game store, in which you must show your ID to enter the store period -- and, yes, you have to be over 21. It's like going to a club, in which you have be 21+ to enter the club.

Here's another thought. I remember in some local movie stores, back in the day, there was the section open to anyone, where you can buy anything rated R or below, pretty much -- but then, there's another section in which there was a  doorman who stood there by a door or curtain, in which you had to be 21+ for him/her to let you enter and you'd have to show your ID off. Well, a game store should have a small special section of the store blocked off, which is basically 21+ for you to enter. Here, you can go buy any "AO" products right in there. Maybe game stores should have a special section blocked off, in which you have to show your ID to enter, so that you can go and purchase "AO" products there.

[MysterD]

Sony and Nintendo DO NOT allow any AO-rated games on their systems period.

Sony, Nintendo forbid AO-rated Manhunt 2
Console-makers confirm policies preventing licensed third parties from releasing Adults Only games on their systems, effectively banning the Rockstar title.
By Brendan Sinclair, GameSpot
Posted Jun 20, 2007 2:37 pm PT

When Take-Two Interactive yesterday confirmed that the Entertainment Software Rating Board handed down a rating of AO for Adults Only for Rockstar Games' Manhunt 2 on the PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, and Nintendo Wii, the publisher said it was exploring its options.

GameSpot has confirmed with Nintendo and Sony that one of those options, which would be to accept the ESRB's judgment and release the game with the AO rating, isn't an option at all. Both companies forbid licensed third-party publishers from releasing games rated AO for Adults Only on their various hardware platforms. Though Manhunt 2 isn't slated for any of Microsoft's systems, the company has also confirmed that it does not allow AO-rated titles on the Xbox or Xbox 360.

Oh, so basically -- no console games will ever get an AO-rating and accept it, basically??!!?

Oh, great -- so basically, the AO-rating's useless...
...Basically, if you get this rating, you basically will have to "modify" your game and cut down content.

So, can a game developer possibly REJECT the ESRB Rating and then option go "Unrated", like say some movies happen to do to theaters and DVD???

The sole exception to this rule was in 2005 when the already released Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas was retroactively rated AO, at which point retailers pulled it from shelves and Take-Two suspended production of the game.

"It's currently our policy not to allow the playback of AO-rated content on our systems," a Sony spokesperson told GameSpot.

Nintendo's official line was much the same. "Games made for Nintendo systems enjoy a broad variety of styles, genres, and ratings," a representative told GameSpot. "These are some of the reasons our Wii and Nintendo DS systems appeal to such a broad range of people. But as with books, television, and movies, different content is meant for different audiences. That's why the ESRB provides ratings to help consumers understand the content of a game before they purchase it. As stated on Nintendo.com, Nintendo does not allow any AO-rated content on its systems."

Take-Two's most readily available alternatives are to appeal the ESRB's AO rating or to modify the game. As of press time, a Rockstar Games representative had not responded to GameSpot's inquiry about how either move would impact the game's scheduled July 10 release date.

[scottws]

Well blame that on Wal-Mart.

[MysterD]

Well blame that on Wal-Mart.

I wonder if we'll see Manhunt 2 coming to the PC, sometime soon -- possibily in it's AO form, too.

Singles: Flirt Up Your Life for the PC got an AO rating in America -- and Eidos accepted the rating. Eidos was selling the AO version through means of online distribution, as well.

Eidos later sold an "M" rated version in retail outlets, as well...

[MysterD]

This is from CVG, who mention of a early copy of Manhunt 2 reviewed for The Wii, which was scored quite high -- 92%, as a matter of fact.
This game was banned in the UK and not even reviewed by their game ratings boards, who is the BBFC, by the way.

Manhunt 2 Wii Reviewed
19-Jun-2007 Article: Excerpts from NGamer's glowing review
35 Comments

By now you should know that the BBFC has refused to rate Rockstar's Manhunt 2 on Wii and PS2, meaning that it can't be legally supplied anywhere in the UK. The game was due to be released in a few weeks and UK Nintendo mag NGamer has the exclusive Wii review. CVG picks apart its review of the game you'll now never play.

NGamer's review opens with: "We're certainly not of the opinion that Wii is a family-friendly box piping Nintendo goodness directly into the living rooms of grannies and toddlers around the country. Given the number of times we've strangled for pennies in The Godfather and kneecapped for fun in Resi 4, we have bloody and conclusive evidence to the contrary. Nintendo has long since stopped beating third-party developers with its censor-stick.

"But this... we can't help but be slightly taken aback by its appearance on a Nintendo console. Not surprised, and certainly not shocked, but perhaps a little - excited? - to see the bright white Wii menu fade into the darkness of what is indisputably the most gruesome videogame we've ever played on any platform."

The magazine labels Manhunt 2 as "one of the best games on Wii" citing the astonishing level of brutality is an integral part of the experience. And it's the brutality of the game that the BBFC took into account before effectively banning its release. It says the game "would involve a range of unjustifiable harm risks, to both adults and minors."

The Wii version obviously takes the murdering side of things to the extreme with the motion controlled interface, and this element is undoubtedly the main reason most people would have liked to have picked up the Wii version. "...holding the A button starts to wind up an execution," says the mag. "An icon appears in the corner of the screen, showing a simple Nunchuk or remote motion, which you must copy to initiate the killing."

The review then goes on to explain, "Each execution has several stages, activated by a chopping motion, or a prod, or a slam to the floor, or a sawing movement" and "executions are much more physical with the Wii controls, and we found we felt more immersed in the game world in general thanks to them."

NGamer calls it one of the best-looking games on Wii to date before summing up: "A lot of people are going to be offended by it, for its copious violence and occasional sex scene, and somebody, somewhere is going to get a shock when they walk in on a friend laterally bisecting a hunter's head with realistic sawing motions. Manhunt 2 is what Wii's parental controls are for. The sticker on the box says it's for over 18s only and, believe us, it's not wrong.

"We've deliberately avoided talking about the game's more grisly excesses because these things are best discovered for yourself. You'll wince, you'll jump, you may even laugh at times, but we can guarantee you'll never forget it." The magazine gave the Wii version an impressive 92%.

Gavin Ogden

Looking at the BBFC's ratings, I'm curious how Manhunt 2 didn't get either their 18 rating or their maximum R18 rating.

[gpw11]

"This is a major problem. There should be a game store, in which you must show your ID to enter the store period -- and, yes, you have to be over 21. It's like going to a club, in which you have be 21+ to enter the club."

I'm pretty sure you'd be out of business in a month.  The market and the product just aren't there.  You would be basing your entire model around like 20 games that are rated AO....most of which probably suck hard.  Sure, you'd offer more mainstream games as well, but you'd be cutting off a huge portion of your consumer base if you're denying anyone under 21 from even entering.  It just doesn't make sense.

"Here's another thought. I remember in some local movie stores, back in the day, there was the section open to anyone, where you can buy anything rated R or below, pretty much -- but then, there's another section in which there was a  doorman who stood there by a door or curtain, in which you had to be 21+ for him/her to let you enter and you'd have to show your ID off. Well, a game store should have a small special section of the store blocked off, which is basically 21+ for you to enter. Here, you can go buy any "AO" products right in there. Maybe game stores should have a special section blocked off, in which you have to show your ID to enter, so that you can go and purchase "AO" products there."

Maybe, but you're taking a section of your store and cordoning it off for essentially one game.  It work(ed) with porn in video stores because at that time that was the only way to really get porn videos (you don't see porn sections nearly as much anymore).  Beyond that, the markup on porn vids is (or at least used to be) insane specifically because of the fact that they had to make more money off of selling a lower volume.  I'd imagine you'd see the same here.

"Oh, great -- so basically, the AO-rating's useless..."

PC games, and maybe Microsoft.  The AO rating has pretty much always been the kiss of death though either way, which is why you've never really seen a big game before now get and accept the rating.  Just not worth the risk.

[beo]

well it looks like it's not going to get a release on the wii or playstation now!

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/20/nintendo-and-sony-wont-touch-manhunt-2-with-ao-rating/

[Quemaqua]

Nintendo I can almost sort of understand (except that there are other crazy violent games like RE4 on the Wii), but Sony?  What the hell?  I'm very curious to see how Rockstar is going to handle this.  And that's rather disappointing.  I didn't have any great desire to go run out and grab Manhunt 2, but it's a shame that adults aren't considered a viable part of the gaming market.

[MysterD]

Nintendo I can almost sort of understand (except that there are other crazy violent games like RE4 on the Wii), but Sony?  What the hell?  I'm very curious to see how Rockstar is going to handle this.

Agreed.

And that's rather disappointing.  I didn't have any great desire to go run out and grab Manhunt 2

Me neither.

...But it's a shame that adults aren't considered a viable part of the gaming market.

I agree w/ this statement. It must be insulting to adults. It's like they ain't even considered as actual gamers. And yeah -- I'm sure there are plenty of adults that do actually play video games, these day and age.

How do we expect "AO" rated games to even be considered something to possibly be able to even market to the consumer, if console publishers like Sony and Nintendo really won't stand-up for these kind of games???

If Rockstar and Take-2 accept the rating, well -- that's a start in the direction for there being possibly more adult-orientated games. Yeah, especially since this game is probably the highest profile of games to actually straight-out-the-gate get slapped w/ the (dreaded) "AO" rating. And, from the looks of things, it looks like Rockstar and Take-2 won't even get that chance to accept the actual rating, since Nintendo and Sony don't allow for "AO" games on their systems. By Rockstar and Take-2 accepting that "AO" rating, their game will never see the light of day on a Sony or Nintendo system.

Also, why do we even have an "AO" rating, if nobody's gonna ever accept the damn rating? Why don't we just change the damn rating name to "U" for "Unacceptable" then?!?!?

[Quemaqua]

GSpot has a nice preview.  It actually sounds pretty cool... I'm interested.  Will be very interesting to see where this all goes.

EDIT - Heh, and here's an interview with Vince Desi about the whole thing, Desi being the head dude over at Running With Scissors, the Postal guys.  He's kind of an ass, as you may remember from before when I interviewed him over at AOG, but he seems less like an idiot now.  I think they've finally stopped putting quite so much up front since they don't feel they have to shock everyone quite as much.  Anyway, nothing super amazing, but sort of interesting anyhow.

[Jedi]

GSpot has a nice preview.  It actually sounds pretty cool... I'm interested.  Will be very interesting to see where this all goes.

EDIT - Heh, and here's an interview with Vince Desi about the whole thing, Desi being the head dude over at Running With Scissors, the Postal guys.  He's kind of an ass, as you may remember from before when I interviewed him over at AOG, but he seems less like an idiot now.  I think they've finally stopped putting quite so much up front since they don't feel they have to shock everyone quite as much.  Anyway, nothing super amazing, but sort of interesting anyhow.

Hehe I'm just interested to see why it got AO to start with!

[beo]

Hehe I'm just interested to see why it got AO to start with!

i think it has to do with the wii actions. when you saw someone in half, you actually do the sawing motion. manhunt's pretty creative in the way that you off people, so i can imagine that the reenactment of these motions in a real world way went a long way to getting it it's AO and banned statuses.

[MysterD]

i think it has to do with the wii actions. when you saw someone in half, you actually do the sawing motion. manhunt's pretty creative in the way that you off people, so i can imagine that the reenactment of these motions in a real world way went a long way to getting it it's AO and banned statuses.

I agree w/ that 100%.

Plus we do know the game does carry some nudity and sexual content in it, as well.
That's just another additional thing making it even easier to get that (dreaded) AO rating.

[W7RE]

I had heard there was going to be a Manhunt 2, but I had no idea when.

I really liked the first one. Just like with all my other single player games, I never finished it, but I did nejoy it a lot. It's one of those games I keep telling myself I'll go back and play all the way through. I actually rented it from Gamefly, and liked it enough that I went out and bought it. The game's basic mechanics were good, but it felt a little clumsy. but the kill scenes and suspense of sneaking up on people made it so much fun. It was a case of the violence alone making it worth the purchase, just like how it's worth seeing a bad horror movie if it's got good death scenes. (Final Destination)

What sucks for me is that right now I don't have themoney to buy the game, let alone an Xbox 360 (since an AO version won't be on Wii or PS3, I'm assuming it's coming to 360). The game will probably fall off the radar and become impossible to find by the time I could get my hands on it.

[MysterD]

I had heard there was going to be a Manhunt 2, but I had no idea when.

I really liked the first one. Just like with all my other single player games, I never finished it, but I did nejoy it a lot. It's one of those games I keep telling myself I'll go back and play all the way through. I actually rented it from Gamefly, and liked it enough that I went out and bought it. The game's basic mechanics were good, but it felt a little clumsy. but the kill scenes and suspense of sneaking up on people made it so much fun. It was a case of the violence alone making it worth the purchase, just like how it's worth seeing a bad horror movie if it's got good death scenes. (Final Destination)

I need to find me a copy of the original Manhunt for the PC.

What sucks for me is that right now I don't have themoney to buy the game, let alone an Xbox 360 (since an AO version won't be on Wii or PS3, I'm assuming it's coming to 360). The game will probably fall off the radar and become impossible to find by the time I could get my hands on it.

I don't think Microsoft allows for AO games on their consoles, either.

If an AO version is released, it might be for the PC.
The PC has had AO games released, such as Singles and Singles 2.

[MysterD]

Rockstar's proud of MH2 and thank the fans for supporting their game, amidst all of the controversy and all...

Rockstar "proud" of Manhunt 2
Ellie Gibson 09:42 (BST) 29/06/2007

Publisher defends controversial title

In a message of thanks issued to its supporters, Rockstar has defended controversial title Manhunt 2 and argued that games should be judged in the same way as other forms of media.

An email sent out by Rockstar reads, "We wanted to thank everyone who has taken the time to contact us about Manhunt 2.

"We are very proud of Manhunt 2 and believe it builds on what the team accomplished with the first title in the series. The game was developed as a horror experience, and to be an M rated title, aligning it with similar horror content created in other forms of media.

"Unlike many other people, we do not think videogames should be singled out for special treatment from the authorities. We hope to have more information for you soon, but in the meantime, we wanted you to know how much we value all of your messages of support."

Manhunt 2 was due to be published on PSP, PS2 and Wii. It has been banned from sale in the UK and Ireland, and given an Adults Only rating in the United States - which means neither Sony or Nintendo will allow the game to be released for their consoles.

As a result, Rockstar last week announced it would be temporarily suspending plans to publish the game.

[gpw11]

"The game was developed as a horror experience, and to be an M rated title, aligning it with similar horror content created in other forms of media."

...... you know, it seems to me like this would qualify as an NC-17 if it were rated like other forms of the media.  I mean, the entire thing is built around the concept of sneaking up on people and killing them in the most brutal way you can....and acting that out (on the wii at least).  Beyond that, lets not fuck around here;  they don't wish it was rated differently, they just wish that walmart would sell their game and Sony and nintendo would support it.  It's a really grey line to say exactly how M and AO line up when compaired to R and NC-17. 

And lets not be stupid...interactivity should play a part if you want to have any sort of legitimate rating system.  Rockstar isn't fighting for the little guy or trying to do anything profound here, they're just trying to cover their own asses.  If anyone really wanted to adress the issues this brings up they'd talk about how their should be an avenue to enable legitimate buyers to easily purchase these games and try to get people to convince sony and nintendo to support them.

[MysterD]

"The game was developed as a horror experience, and to be an M rated title, aligning it with similar horror content created in other forms of media."

...... you know, it seems to me like this would qualify as an NC-17 if it were rated like other forms of the media.  I mean, the entire thing is built around the concept of sneaking up on people and killing them in the most brutal way you can....and acting that out (on the wii at least).  Beyond that, lets not fuck around here;  they don't wish it was rated differently, they just wish that walmart would sell their game and Sony and nintendo would support it.  It's a really grey line to say exactly how M and AO line up when compaired to R and NC-17. 

I think from what we have read in previews and heard about the game, it probably does deserve the AO rating, myself.

I think AO is the video game equivalent of NC-17 -- for NC-17 movies, usually the violence and/or sexual content is much more graphic and much more often than what would be seen in R.

And lets not be stupid...interactivity should play a part if you want to have any sort of legitimate rating system.

I agree -- especially if you have to immitate "Realistic" motions w/ the Wii.

Rockstar isn't fighting for the little guy or trying to do anything profound here, they're just trying to cover their own asses.

I think they're just trying to get their product out, as it is, basically.

As usual, Rockstar's pushing the envelope. And if anyone can produce an AO game and wind up creating a very good AO-rated product, I'd bet on Rockstar. I think if Rockstar -- or hell, anyone -- can release a good AO-rated game and that it, somehow finds a way, to sell well, it could cause the AO-rating to be more widely accepted. W/ that, we might see more AO-rated games on the market.  I think, Rockstar being such a big commercial name dev. house and a very good dev. house, they are in such a position that if anyone can somehow achieve this, they can.

If anyone really wanted to adress the issues this brings up they'd talk about how their should be an avenue to enable legitimate buyers to easily purchase these games and try to get people to convince sony and nintendo to support them.

Agreed.

And as long as console companies, namely Nintendo and Sony, don't support these AO products, how do we expect the problems to accept that quality games can actually be made that get branded with the AO rating??? One problem w/ the AO rating is that -- well, just like the NC-17 rating -- generally, it is frowned upon like it's some sort of "taboo" and that it's a "kiss of death;" it's as if it's also perceived that these products just won't turn out as good as a M rated product.

[MysterD]

Publisher Take-Two says that they'll accept the AO rating, if they can find a way to get it onto the market...

Oh, and they take shots at the ESRB's Ratings System as well...

Take-Two: Manhunt 2 will be published
Publisher states that it 'will do whatever we need to do' to bring the banned UK and US title to market, slams the US ratings system.
By Emma Boyes, GameSpot UK
Posted Jul 9, 2007 6:36 pm PT

The would-be publisher of violent stealth-action game Manhunt 2 has vowed to release the controversial title following its outright banning in the UK and its de facto banning in the US. Take-Two Interactive executives said the company stood by the title, which it called "art," and promised it would eventually see a release.

Take-Two chairman Strauss Zelman stressed that he believed the company took its social responsibility very seriously. "We also have hundreds of extraordinarily talented people who have worked on this title for three years, and supporting their creative vision and bringing it to consumers as unvarnished and unchanged as possible is crucial to us," he said during the call.

The chairman added that Take-Two subsidiary Rockstar Games, which publishes Manhunt and the Grand Theft Auto series, sees itself as a producer of games rated M for Mature. However, Zelman did say Take-Two would stand by its game, even if it bore the dreaded AO for Adults Only rating. "We don't see ourselves in the Adults Only business," he told analysts listening to the call. "Having said that, if we find ourselves in the Adults Only business, it would be because we have a title that we consider art and entertainment, that we consider if appropriately labelled AO, and that we would like to bring to market."

Zelman also was critical of the American rating system, where the game received an Adults Only rating from the Entertainment Software Ratings Board, a certificate intended to ensure that products don't make it into the hands of those under 18. However, the majority of major retailers refuse to stock adult only rated products, and Sony and Nintendo also refuse to allow AO rated games on to their consoles.

The chairman pondered, "What is the purpose of a rating if it means effectively that a title cannot be released?...Having a rating that we don't think is appropriate is one issue, obviously, and a separate issue would be if we feel the rating is appropriate and we can't bring it to market…that seems somewhat nonsensical."

[Quemaqua]

That's a fairly admirable stance, really.  I can't imagine it's entirely ideological... still, it sounds nice.

[MysterD]

My copy of the original Manhunt for the PC is on its way!!!
Thank you, Gogamer!

It's $9.90 @ Gogamer on their 48 hour madness, BTW.

[idolminds]

I'd be interested if I wasn't saving for Aquaria right now.

[Xessive]

I guess I'd be more interested if it was a "great" game on the stake. I love stealth and tactical games, but Manhunt wasn't that good. I'm not particularly excited about Manhunt 2. Now had they said Fable 2 (or any other game I'm interested in) was being AO'd or banned, then I'd be a little more concerned.

[MysterD]

Rockstar is APPEALING the UK's BBFC (the UK's Rating Boards Committe) for basically banning Manhunt 2 over in the UK

Rockstar Appeals BBFC Ban of Manhunt 2
At the 11th hour, Rockstar opts to appeal.
By Andrew Hayward, 08/01/2007

On June 19th, the British Board of Film Classification kick-started the Manhunt 2 drama by banning the title in the United Kingdom, which then led to its AO rating in the States, its subsequent banning from Nintendo and Sony, and even some admitted self-censoring by developers of other violent titles.

Rockstar Games had been given six weeks to appeal the decision, and with that opportunity about to expire, the company lodged its formal appeal yesterday, according to MCV. The appeal was filed with the Video Appeals Committee, which can overturn the BBFC decision. As noted in our first article about the ban, the VAC overturned the BBFC's ban of Carmageddon back in 1997, giving Rockstar a glimmer of hope in its current situation.

The next step in the process is for a hearing to be scheduled, at which the BBFC and Rockstar will be given the opportunity to deliver arguments and demonstrate the game. No word yet on if a similar appeal has been (or will be) filed with the ESRB in North America, but based on the previous chain of events, we wouldn't be surprised if such an appeal popped up within days.

[MysterD]

Factor 5's President talks how how "bizarre" he feels the USA's ESRB and the UK's BBFC (British Board of Film and Video Classfication, which is the UK's own "ESRB"), w/ both rating schemes -- referring to Manhunt 2 and also to how much he had to tweak his game to get it a "T" rating here in the States.

Oh, and he says "Games need more sex", too. heh!

GC 07: Factor 5 finds ESRB ratings 'bizarre'
Lair-maker president says that the industry needs a more realistic ratings system, is "very concerned" by Manhunt 2 ban, and thinks games need more sex.
By Emma Boyes, GameSpot UK
Posted Aug 20, 2007 3:15 am PT

LEIPZIG, Germany--A prominent developer has blasted the American Entertainment Software Rating Board, saying he thinks its ratings system "absolutely bizarre."

Julian Eggebrecht, the president of Factor 5, came to that opinion while trying to get a T for Teen rating for his company's forthcoming dragon fighter, Lair for the PlayStation 3. In order to do this, the San Rafael, California-based studio went through a process with the ESRB over "weeks and months," where it tweaked every bit of the game that the ratings body wanted it to.

Eggebrecht said, "You can set up to 5,000 people on fire, and they run around and scream, and that's fine because there's no blood." The executive was not impressed with the games rating system in the US and called it "problematic." He added, "It's a flat-out bizarre system, and I think it has no relation to what is happening in other media." He gave examples of violent movies such as Bonnie and Clyde, Natural Born Killers, and A Clockwork Orange.

Eggebrecht outlined how he and his colleagues across the Atlantic were "very concerned" that Manhunt 2 was banned in the UK by the British Board of Film Classification. "An outright banning cannot happen [in the US], " he told the delegates at the conference, "That Manhunt 2 got banned in the UK... It's a very scary development."

He said that he understood that the problem with the game, although he hadn't played it himself, was that because the gamer played as the protagonist, who during the game commits a series of gruesome murders, the player would be identifying with him in an "even more satisfying way" than Stanley Kubrick or Anthony Burgess would have envisaged with A Clockwork Orange. However, "People want to push the envelope and push the artistic impressions and the artistic content of games. If they're allowed to do it in movies, why aren't they allowed to do it in games?"

Eggebrecht also says that he wants to see more sex in games. He told the audience, "Games do not have sex and there is something wrong with that because it says essentially that games are what children play."

[gpw11]

Interesting, yet it is a bit strange that he's German and he doesn't mention The Index at all.