Topic: Manhunt 2 rated "AO" by ESRB

[W7RE]

He's right, video games are considered little more than children's toys. If Manhunt 2 is ever to see a release, I'm betting it would take a revamp of the ratings system, and stores would have to accept that a game can sell as AO, just not to children.

I doubt that will happen though. I wonder what the chances are that we'll ever see a real release of the game.

[Quemaqua]

Well, supposedly the publisher said they were going to make it available without making cuts.  Maybe they're just going to stick to a PC release?

[nickclone]

Well, supposedly the publisher said they were going to make it available without making cuts.  Maybe they're just going to stick to a PC release?

Nah, they spent to much time making this for the Wii. I think with a little bit of pressure, Nintendo will crack and release it. What would be a better way to shake the "kiddy image" than to release a AO rated game?

[Quemaqua]

Except it doesn't appear Nintendo's trying to shake that image.  That's what they've spent all their advertising money trying to *build*.  I'm not saying there's no way they'd release it, but I don't see any evidence of that at this point.  Unless the rumor mill was right and the ESRB was in on the whole thing with Rockstar, giving the game an AO rating even though it knew it would rescind that directive and scale it back to Mature without any content changing, just so they could make it seem like they were cracking down on violent content.  Which would be an interesting ploy, but there's no proof of that either.

[Pugnate]

Nah, they spent to much time making this for the Wii. I think with a little bit of pressure, Nintendo will crack and release it. What would be a better way to shake the "kiddy image" than to release a AO rated game?

That wholesome image is what has helped propel the gimmicky Wii to such heights.

[idolminds]

Manhunt 2 "modified" to get M rating, releases Halloween.

[Quemaqua]

Disappointing.  So much for the publisher's stand to not alter content.  And shame on them for not talking about what content was changed.

[idolminds]

And the political machine keeps churning. Now they are demanding to know exactly what changed were made to the game to get the rating changed from AO to M.

From our buddy Yee:

    Parents can’t trust a rating system that doesn’t even disclose how they come to a particular rating. The ESRB and Rockstar should end this game of secrecy by immediately unveiling what content has been changed to grant the new rating and what correspondence occurred between the ESRB and Rockstar to come to this conclusion. Unfortunately, history shows that we must be quite skeptical of these two entities.

    Clearly the ESRB has a conflict of interest in rating these games. It is time to bring transparency to this rating system and for the industry to be held accountable.  I join the [Campaign for a Commercial-Free Childhood] in urging the Federal Trade Commission to investigate the process by which Manhunt 2’s rating was downgraded from AO to M.

They immediately throw "parents" in there. Always making this sound like a game for children when neither M or AO means the game is for kids.

Secret rating system? How about movies? How the fuck is stuff like Hostel and Saw rated R, but Showgirls was NC17? Oh no, boobs? There are lots of directors that state they have no idea whats up when they get their movies rated. I see no call to have the government investigate.

But beside all that...look at the hair we are splitting. AO is 18+, M is 17+. So we're arguing over what a 17 year old can see and what an 18 year old can see. They didnt rerate the game E or T so younger kids could buy it. This is hardly a change at all. Id go as far as to say AO and M ratings are almost redundant.

[MysterD]

And the political machine keeps churning. Now they are demanding to know exactly what changed were made to the game to get the rating changed from AO to M.

From our buddy Yee: They immediately throw "parents" in there. Always making this sound like a game for children when neither M or AO means the game is for kids.

Secret rating system? How about movies? How the fuck is stuff like Hostel and Saw rated R, but Showgirls was NC17? Oh no, boobs? There are lots of directors that state they have no idea whats up when they get their movies rated. I see no call to have the government investigate.

Keep in mind, Saw was originally rated NC-17 by the MPAA. That was cut down (barely, actually) to try and earn the R rating. Saw's Uncut Edition DVD is actually what was given an NC-17 by the MPAA.

Though, how the R-rated edition of Saw didn't still stay at NC-17, is still quite beyond me...It's quite abundant w/ its violence and graphic content, regardless...

How Hostel got an R-rating, is also beyond me -- especially given the amount of graphic violence it features AND the amount of sex and nudity that the film actually has.

But beside all that...look at the hair we are splitting. AO is 18+, M is 17+. So we're arguing over what a 17 year old can see and what an 18 year old can see.
...
This is hardly a change at all. I'd go as far as to say AO and M ratings are almost redundant.

I agree w/ this completely -- which is also why I do believe AO should be aged instead at 21+.

[Quemaqua]

I'd second what Idol said.  Yee is getting on my fucking nerves.  Well, he has been... but more so recently.

[MysterD]

Holland will be getting the Uncut Version of Manhunt 2.

I wonder how expensive Holland imports of the MH2: Uncut game will turn up --- especially on Ebay!

[idolminds]

I think people are reading too much into this information. More like "Holland would allow an uncut Manhunt 2 release" because I don't think they are going to publish the uncut version just for that country. They'd still need Sony/Nintendo/MS to allow the game to be published with an AO rating, which we know they won't. Just the country wouldn't bar it from release if they did.

I do like this statement, though. "The current law is based on the principle that every adult is considered capable of deciding for himself which games he wants to play, unless it contains illegal material."...what a novel concept! Somehow the "land of the free, home of the brave" doesn't feel the same.

[idolminds]

Speaking of the uncut Manhunt 2, it seems to have been leaked and is available at your favorite torrent sites. PS2 version, so you'd need a modchip or something to play.

Should be interesting when the real edited game gets released so people can compare them.

[MysterD]

So, who leaked it out? Rockstar?

[Quemaqua]

Probably an employee.  Good for them, says I.  Well, sort of.  They really should have waited until the game had been out for a while.  This could theoretically hurt sales, as not only is it free, it's (in theory) the more desirable version.

[gpw11]

I don't know.  I'd argue that the more desirable version would probably be the one that was actually fun to play.  You know,  pretty much not a Manhunt game at all.  Or maybe a Manhunt game that's developed beyond the point of being a giant gimmick.

[Quemaqua]

I enjoyed the first one about halfway through.  And it was rather cool from a strictly stylistic standpoint.  I think if they beefed it up the sequel could be good fun.

[gpw11]

I really didn't like the first.  I got so bored of it so fast.  When it all came down to it, it just seemed like it was the same thing over and over again (Which wasn't very good to begin with), hit a to smash guy in face with bad, hit b to smash guy in back with bat...and then face. Hit a to cut with chainsaw, hit b to stab with chainsaw.   From what I've seen of this one it looks to be more of the same. 

[Quemaqua]

*Shrug*  I guess.  What more do stealth games usually offer?  Granted, MH was down a few notches on the stick, and obviously other titles are more robust, but it had some cool moments and had an interesting premise despite being a little bit too limited in scope.  I'm sure the next game will offer more of the same stuff, but I would imagine they're throwing in some evolutionary stuff.  They can't possibly be stupid enough to not fix at least some of what was wrong with the first.  I have too much faith in them to believe that.

[Xessive]

I love stealth games (i.e. Splinter Cell, MGS) and I agree with GPW that Manhunt got boring really quickly. I got about halfway before I just quit playing. Normally even if I'm bored with a game I'll at least finish it just to see the ending, but this one was too monotonous.

[MysterD]

Some of the details of what's been changed from the AO-to-M version of the game have emerged

Some Manhunt 2 AO-to-M Changes Outlined
New build reveals toned down violence.
By Steve Watts, 09/12/2007

Ever since Rockstar's Manhunt 2 achieved its revised M rating from the Electronic Software Rating Board, there's been politicians demanding transparency but the ESRB refuses to disclose details. Of course, the fight has always been running on borrowed time, since both Holland gamers and game sites that saw earlier builds would eventually spot the differences.

We're seeing the first of those today as IGN reports on seeing the M-rated build of the game, after having earlier calling the AO-rated build "the goriest game [they have] ever seen." The new preview outlines the game's still-present brutality, but details some changes. Though the game has largely been untouched, the infamous testicle-ripping sequence has been cut from the game entirely and death strikes have been heavily tweaked visually, adding a blur effect and darkening sequences to obscure violent viewpoints.

The game is set for a Halloween release, but if you can't wait to feel the terror you can check out our preview of the game. In the meantime, how do you feel about the changes? Is there any reason Rockstar shouldn't have been able to release an "unrated" version of the game, ala Hollywood's approach on DVD?

[scottws]

I really didn't like the first.  I got so bored of it so fast.  When it all came down to it, it just seemed like it was the same thing over and over again (Which wasn't very good to begin with), hit a to smash guy in face with bad, hit b to smash guy in back with bat...and then face. Hit a to cut with chainsaw, hit b to stab with chainsaw.   From what I've seen of this one it looks to be more of the same. 

I agree.  I played a little of this game (it was my brothers') and it was nothing to write home about.  It was pretty darn boring.

[MysterD]

In ESRB and AO news, after the whole Manhunt 2 rating craziness....

...It could be possible that Ninja Gaiden 2 could wind up getting slapped w/ AO from the ESRB, due to its violence...

[gpw11]

That's a forum post linking to a blog where the guy is basing his 'theory' on screenshots.  I'd even go so far as to say that saying 'it could be possible' based off that is stretching it.

 It could be possible that the next BRATZ game is going to be rated AO because of their slutty short skirts.  Baseless statements are fun.

EDIT:  Yeah, and back onto the previous conversation, you can't compare Manhunt to Splinter Cell or MGS.  Not only did they offer more then Manhunt did, but they did the only thing manhunt really did a lot better.  That is excluding the gimmicky "this game sucks but look at all the blood!" content.

[MysterD]

Despite Manhunt 2 getting an M-rating after toning some content down for its USA Release...

...UK's BBFC yet again REJECTS Manhunt 2, even after some changes were made.

Manhunt 2 still not OK for UK, says British ratings board

14 Comments by Scott Jon Siegel Oct 8th 2007 7:30AM
Filed under: Nintendo Wii

Despite receiving an M rating from the ESRB in the US, Manhunt 2 on the Nintendo Wii is still not appropriate for release in the UK, according to the British Board of Film Classification, who have once again rejected the title, despite changes made since the original rejection back in June.

Any hope of Manhunt 2's release in the UK now hinges on publisher Take 2 Interactive appealing the decision, but not before further changes are made to the final version of the game. David Cooke, director of the BBFC has stated that the changes made to the title thus far are not sufficient, and that the game still retains the same "visceral" and "sadistic" gameplay that warranted the original rejection.

It's unknown at this point whether Take 2 will once again appeal the rejection, or if Manhunt 2 is simply not meant for release in the UK.

Looks like some in the UK will probably have to import the game from the USA, or something...



EDIT:
Not surprising at all, Rockstar is APPEALING the decision laid down by the BBFC.

[Quemaqua]

What a bunch of fucking hypocrites.

[gpw11]

How is that hypocritical?

[Quemaqua]

They've let plenty of other crap through, and a lot of the lists of banned stuff are really uneven.  At least from what I've seen.

[MysterD]

They've let plenty of other crap through, and a lot of the lists of banned stuff are really uneven.  At least from what I've seen.

For movies --- Saw 3 and Hostel, anyone?

Even if you're only watching there (and not controlling anything like in Manhunt 2), those have to be two of the most violent movies ever made. Period.

And The UK let them in, as they were.

[gpw11]

I don't really think we could accurately judge that considering the game isn't out yet.  I'm not saying it's untrue, but personally I'd be suprised if there was all that much we could consider worse than acting out bashing someone's head in with a wrench getting through the filters there.   I mean, they were thinking about banning DoD for a while there.  DoD!

As for movies, I don't believe you can cross reference mediums like that.  That's just my personal opinion.  It's a completely different expierience, and as such, should be judged differently (if decided it has to be judged at all).

[MysterD]

Were the Soldier of Fortune games released in the UK as they were intended?

Those were pretty violent...

[Quemaqua]

Sure, it's different, but the movies they let in were far worse than what I gather Manhunt 2: the Castrated Version now is (it sounds pretty wimpy now, to be honest).

[MysterD]

Sure, it's different, but the movies they let in were far worse than what I gather Manhunt 2: the Castrated Version now is (it sounds pretty wimpy now, to be honest).

Actually, the newest edition will probably be titled Manhunt 2: The Double Castrated Version.

Actually, this is kinda' interesting....
America gets The Witcher: Less Nudity Edition, while UK gets Manhunt 2: Double Castrated Edition...

Man, I tell you...Gogamer and their common importing business is gonna go through the roof, this Fall...

[gpw11]

I don't know about SoF - it was placed on the index in Germany and was labeled as restricted material in BC, so it wouldn't suprise me.

As for the movies, without looking at their review documentation and their guidelines, we can't really make an accurate statement about that.  I'd say from reading about it that they judge according to context, and that might account for it.  It would be pretty easy for a member on the panel to argue that the acts in Manhunt are worse simply because for all intensive purposes you're encouraged to accomplish them as part of the goal of the game, whereas in movies you're just witnessing them.  

[Quemaqua]

You could argue a lot of things, but that doesn't change my own opinion on the matter, hence my original dismissive statement remains the same.

[gpw11]

Well, that's hypocritical.

[Quemaqua]

No it's not.  You may not call them hypocrites, but I do.  If you want to call this decision a double standard, then fine, but in my book it's the same shit.

[MysterD]

Somebody just needs to somehow convince the BBFC board to release Manhunt 2: Uncut in the UK and the ESRB to release The Witcher: Uncut in the USA and we'll all be happy gamers across the globe!

[gpw11]

It's not a double standard either, you're compairing apples to oranges.  Two different mediums are determined to have two different effects once the level of interactivity is taken into account.

Beyond that, it's already well documented that the BBFC rates films in a somewhat inconsistent manner because they take into account the neccesity of the event, the context of the event, and the overall tone (See Ichi the Killer Vs Irreversable, which pretty much features the most disturbing scene in a movie ever).  Call it hypocritical all you want, but that's a very simplified way of looking at it.  If you want it to operate on some sort of boolian principle you're going to be looking at a lot less questionable content in England.

[Quemaqua]

Okay, I guess I can give you that because they *feel* the two things are different, that removes them from the literal definition of hypocrisy, but it's still hypocrisy in my view because I disagree with any fundamental arguments that interactivity somehow makes this stuff worse.  You're arguing semantics and it serves no purpose for a fucking one-sentence write-off of what I consider to be a stupid decision.  Let it go.