Topic: 5 things worse than global warming - but without the great PR departments

[gpw11]

http://lighterfootstep.com/five-things-that-are-worse-than-global-warming.html


Discuss.

[Quemaqua]

Stuff like this is what occupies my concern the most.  And it depresses the living crap out of me.  I really don't even know what else to say about it other than that it really tears me up.

[Jedi]

I don't knot if you guys have been watching that Live Earth thing but I can't help but think what's the point?
150 acts in concerts all around the world over 24 hours, short BS films and save the earth messages from do-gooding Hollywood stars. How does any of that help? Are they raising money for research? No their trying to raise awareness, what bull’.
Fuck sacks one of their messages was about not using public transport!! What the hell! One diesel bus is better than 2 dozen cars gridlocked every morning and evening! But no apparently that’s not good enough.
They also say not to use planes and suggest that you use boats and trains… so your whole holiday will be spent on the seas getting their and back or you take a train be a restricted to your continent….

I just find this whole thing ridiculous and more than little pretentious.

Sorry this probably should have been posted in this thread but I just needed to event and it’s a little related 

[gpw11]

Yeah, I was actually wondering about that.  What's the goal of Earth Aid?  I mean, Live AID had a goal - raise money, use said money to feed people.  It may not be the best way of going about stopping world hunger, but it actually gets something done.  Where does the money from this go? 

Raising awareness may be a good cause in some cases...like genocide in little known cases, but who in the lazy, sheltered, first wold doesn't know about the ecological impact of their lives, environmental damage, and global warming?  People who just don't care..that's who and Metallica and Smashing Pumpkins aren't going to do shit to convince them that they should sell their car and walk to work.  A giant jerk off session is what it is.

An Inconvenient Truth started this whole trend where people are all of a sudden making environmental issues their number one concern. That wouldn't be so bad if, a.) there weren't more pressing issues out there (nuclear fallout is also bad for the enviroment), and b.) like every other hot topic that people get behind it gets overly simplified and people start focusing on the wrong things. 

Parliment recently put forth a plan to ban conventional bulbs and make only CF available.  Not that bad, except it doesn't really do all that much here.  CFs are almost all made in china, by plants who's carbon output far exceed those built in the western world.  The excess energy used by conventional bulbs for the most part is turned into heat.  While that may not sound like a big issue, you have to think about places like where I live.  Power comes from hydro dams, heat comes from gas.  Losing the small amount of heat from the bulbs may not be a huge factor in destroying our environment, but if everyone in Vancouver switched over, there would be a bigger impact.  Beyond that, there's the issue of the mercury content in the CFs.  It may not be the huge deal some people make it out to be, but we should be at a point here where we should try to avoid putting any mercury into landfills unless absolutely necessary anyways.

Its just little shit, but I bet that move by parliment probably won a few people some votes.  Probably not the real environmentalists...they generally are a bit more educated on the subject and look for more direct policy changes, but by some people who recently got on board their train.

Like I said before, raising awareness like this does little.  I already know of the problem, but what the fuck do you actually want me to do about it?  I drive a tercel that gets about 500 km off a 35 litre tank.  I turn all my shit off at night, and turn my furnace on only when the cold is too unbearable.  If you answer with 'bike to work!', 'catch the bus!', or 'maybe you don't need your furnace on at all!', you're a fucking moron.

[idolminds]

Oh boy, its going to be a fun day when we run out of oil. People bitch about "war for oil" now? Wait till those reserves are the only thing left.

That makes you think. What happens when it really does run out? What happens to all our modes of transportation? What happens when farmers can no longer use tractors to plow or planes to spray the fields. Maybe battery tech will be good enough by then that it'll be a non-issue. Maybe that hydrogen fuel stuff will work out. Still, its fun to think about how much we would regress if those things don't turn out. Want to travel overseas? Take a boat. With a *sail*.

Holy shit, what about satellites or any space exploration? How do we break orbit to put that shit up without fuel to burn? The GPS satellites would eventually fail and go offline without replacements. No more satellite radio once they burn on reentry.

Fun times, indeed.

[Jedi]

Oh boy, its going to be a fun day when we run out of oil. People bitch about "war for oil" now? Wait till those reserves are the only thing left.

That makes you think. What happens when it really does run out? What happens to all our modes of transportation? What happens when farmers can no longer use tractors to plow or planes to spray the fields. Maybe battery tech will be good enough by then that it'll be a non-issue. Maybe that hydrogen fuel stuff will work out. Still, its fun to think about how much we would regress if those things don't turn out. Want to travel overseas? Take a boat. With a *sail*.

Holy shit, what about satellites or any space exploration? How do we break orbit to put that shit up without fuel to burn? The GPS satellites would eventually fail and go offline without replacements. No more satellite radio once they burn on reentry.

Fun times, indeed.

I'll tell you what'll happen, we'll have yet another great big pointless concert.

[idolminds]

haha

[Cobra951]

Check out Brazil's energy policy and development.  Cars sold there must be flex-fuel, meaning they need to run on any combination of gas and alcohol.  They produce huge amounts of alcohol as well.  Frankly, I'm not scared about running out of petroleum.  I'm all for using it until it's gone, and when it's gone, use something else.  Whoever develops that something else on time, such as Brazil, will surpass the USA as an economic power in the future.  I don't believe in energy crises, only in a crisis of intelligence and forethought.  As long as that big thermonuclear ball continues to bombard us with amazing amounts of energy, all we have to do is figure out how to convert it for our use.  Plants have that conversion down to a science, and we can sure use plants to supply a lot of stuff, including fuel.

[Ghandi]

Ignorance is bliss. I say we dump all of our problems on our grandkids and party it up while the Earth is still around. Everyone knows we are doomed anyways.

[WindAndConfusion]

http://lighterfootstep.com/five-things-that-are-worse-than-global-warming.html

Discuss.

That guy is badly misinformed, you guys never read the stuff I post, and my desire to kill gpw is reaffirmed.

Chicken the First: Oil

In 2003, when gas prices were starting to get over $2/gallon, I thought the market would never tolerate it. Now it's 2007, the situation is basically the same as 2003, and people are bitching that we'll be seeing $4 gas by Labor Day.

Oh boy, its going to be a fun day when we run out of oil. People bitch about "war for oil" now? Wait till those reserves are the only thing left.

1) Peak oil is not the same as running out of oil. It's not even the same as running out of cheap oil (which will happen at different times in different oil fields). Peak oil is where oil production reaches a maximum, and then starts to decline.
2) We are nowhere near running out of oil. Two-thirds of the world reserves are still untouched. Look up "tar sands" some time.

Chicken the Second: Oceans

I don't know so much about this one, but I don't believe the author anyway. He blew his credibility almost as soon as he opened his mouth.

Algal blooms seem to be a real concern, as are sewer run-off (a major cause of blooms) and over-fishing. Global warming dwarfs any of these.

Chicken the Third: Water

The biggest threat to fresh water supplies is global warming. Climatologists have been saying so for twenty years, at least. (And not just because of a changing pattern of rainfall, as the author seems to think.)

How will we replace shrinking fresh water supplies? Desalinization of sea water is an obvious answer, but desalinization is expensive energy intensive.

Nuclear desalination is reasonably cheap and works on an industrial scale. It also uses little energy that wouldn't get wasted anyway. The major obstacle to it is the Luddite lobby, but once they get thirsty they'll either shut up or die.

It would require the development of a  distribution system that dwarfs the one by which we currently bring petroleum to market.

We already have that distribution system you speak of. It's called "plumbing."

Chicken the Fourth: Forests

Also something I don't know so much about. How deforestation is supposed to be a larger threat than global warming remains a mystery to me, though.

Chicken the Fifth: Nuclear Weapons

Huh, the blind squirrel found a bigger nut than global warming. Although, he still manages to sound like an idiot. (Nuclear winter is a calamity but global warming isn't, even though at heart they're the same thing: a climate crisis.)

[idolminds]

We may not be near running out of oil yet. I was just thinking of when it'll eventually happen...and it will.

Also, I think we should combat global warming with nuclear winter!

[Ghandi]

In reality, all 5 of those, short of deforestation are fairly easy to fix. Oil- Cobra hit that one on the head. Oceans- stop dumping and overfishing and the ecosystem will eventually recover. Easier said than done, but still. Water- W&C covered it. Nukes- We already know where all (well, most) of the enriched uranium in the world is. As far as the current nukes, everyone knows that they are mostly a political tool. No one outside of NK or Iran would use them, and even they can be controlled with good foreign policy (read: not Bush).

And W&C, I, for one, do read what you post, despite whether or not I respond (or how I respond).

What really worries me more than the problems is our willingness to do nothing about them. Also, as far as the Live Earth concert, I have to wonder how much waste the concerts themselves produced.

[angrykeebler]

I agree with Ghandi. Lets all party it up and let our grandkids handle the mess. We don't care cause we'll be dead.

[sirean_syan]

Actually, all these problems can be solved with one simple solution, although it isn't an easily accepted one.

Less people. Stop making so many.

[idolminds]

/kickban China

[Antares]

We may not be near running out of oil yet. I was just thinking of when it'll eventually happen...and it will.

Also, I think we should combat global warming with nuclear winter!

Wind's point is that Oil will not suddenly run out.  Assuming we don't convert to a new technology on our own, Oil, like any other natural resource would simply steadily become more difficult and expensive to extract, forcing up the price until eventually people are forced to choose other options.  It's not as if suddenly one morning we will all wake up and find out that we've all filled our cars with our last tank of gas.

[Ace_O_Spades]

If anyone has any desire or time to read an excellent book by a Pulitzer prize winning author, read Collapse by Jared Diamond. Basically outlines how all our current problems have been exhibited numerous times throughout history with disastrous results. We're just doing it on a much, much larger scale and it's just taking a lot longer. But barring real action, deforestation, overpopulation, overfishing will destroy our lives or the lives of our children. If you don't care about that then you're a total asshole that deserves the first spot in line for the furnaces we'll use to exterminate stupid people when overpopulation fucks us in the ass.

[Ghandi]

Where are these furnaces you speak of and how do I sign up people for it?

[Cobra951]

If anyone has any desire or time to read an excellent book by a Pulitzer prize winning author, read Collapse by Jared Diamond. Basically outlines how all our current problems have been exhibited numerous times throughout history with disastrous results. We're just doing it on a much, much larger scale and it's just taking a lot longer. But barring real action, deforestation, overpopulation, overfishing will destroy our lives or the lives of our children. If you don't care about that then you're a total asshole that deserves the first spot in line for the furnaces we'll use to exterminate stupid people when overpopulation fucks us in the ass.

I have a much shorter way for you to say the same thing.  "Repent ye sinners, for the end is nigh!"  There.  It will save you a lot of time in the future.

Deforestation is bullshit, by the way.  We grow more stuff than we take down.  It's easy too.  Water, dirt and sunlight.  We have that in spades.

Contrary to what you may have heard, history never repeats itself.  Every situation is different.  We may march into our doom, or we may yet shine like no other culture ever has.  Most likely, something in between.

Did you ever read the story about the people who dreamt that a horrible end was about to befall them, so they poisoned all their children in their sleep to prevent their suffering from this terrible fate?

[Ghandi]

Ah, but then there is the story of the two men in the leaky boat, surrounded by sharks. One man has a rifle, and the other says, "Why don't you shoot the sharks? Once we are in the water, the rifle will be useless."

"You fool," says the other man. "Why should I shoot the sharks? None of them has bit me yet."

[Cobra951]

True, but we weren't talking about cultural and religious incompatibility before.  This is a different path to our doom.

[gpw11]

If anyone has any desire or time to read an excellent book by a Pulitzer prize winning author, read Collapse by Jared Diamond. Basically outlines how all our current problems have been exhibited numerous times throughout history with disastrous results. We're just doing it on a much, much larger scale and it's just taking a lot longer. But barring real action, deforestation, overpopulation, overfishing will destroy our lives or the lives of our children. If you don't care about that then you're a total asshole that deserves the first spot in line for the furnaces we'll use to exterminate stupid people when overpopulation fucks us in the ass.

I don't disagree at all.  We're fucked and it all comes down to overpopulation.  I'm not saying that the world should sit back and do nothing at all, if anything I don't believe that the people who claim to take this shit very seriously are taking it seriously enough or going about it in the right way.  Live Earth?  Who the fuck doesn't know about global warming? 

Look, with an exponentially growing population all competing to consume more and more resources and energy and what essentially amounts to a closed system for an environment, something is going to give.  Carbon credits, energy efficient vehicles, and people biking to work help....slightly, but it'd be silly to focus on such band-aid solutions while ignoring the real problem...our total impact and what the fuck we are going to do. 

We can not sustain ourselves unless drastic measures are taken.  Too much energy is consumed, too much will have to be produced, and there are not enough resources. Get on those fucking rocket ships.  Reducing carbon emissions is not the be all and end all of saving the world and it's dangerous to sell it as such.

[Cobra951]

Wait, are you seriously suggesting that we go into outer space for more resources, maybe even to live?  Isn't that slightly more fantastic than singing "We Are the World" and expecting results?

Am I way off base here?

[Ghandi]

Clearly the policy of keeping old people in the dark about the interplanetary transports is working.

Now continue eating your vitamins and watching your Matlock.


 

[Ace_O_Spades]

I have a much shorter way for you to say the same thing.  "Repent ye sinners, for the end is nigh!"  There.  It will save you a lot of time in the future.

Deforestation is bullshit, by the way.  We grow more stuff than we take down.  It's easy too.  Water, dirt and sunlight.  We have that in spades.

Contrary to what you may have heard, history never repeats itself.  Every situation is different.  We may march into our doom, or we may yet shine like no other culture ever has.  Most likely, something in between.

Did you ever read the story about the people who dreamt that a horrible end was about to befall them, so they poisoned all their children in their sleep to prevent their suffering from this terrible fate?

Wow, I'm so glad you think that what happens to be forestry policy in the USA applies to the rest of the world... and that what happens in the rest of the world has no impact on the planet as a whole.

Case and point:

Brazil and other South American countries rapidly deforesting old growth forests with no sustainable replanting. Australia, whose soil fertility is too low to maintain sustainable growth in replanted forests, is mining their resources at a staggering rate. The first world is able to plant trees, or subsidize forestry industries by mass importing said old growth from the third world, which happens to be China's strategy after calling for a moratorium on forestry due to massive deforestation and soil loss due to erosion. Not all areas of the world have equal soil fertility, and those that do don't necessarily have governments who decide that sustainable forests are a matter worth pursuing.

"Repent ye sinners, for the end is nigh!" !?!? This religious diatribe is used as a fear tactic... Don't bring religious bullshit into this. Religion didn't help the Anasazi survive when they raped the American southwest through overpopulation and deforestation, becoming extinct or being forced to emigrate to other areas to rape. They were unable to cope with climate change and it was their downfall. Religion didn't help the Easter Islanders who were driven to cannibalism and suicide after they no longer had any trees left to build canoes to leave the island... They blindly followed the will of tribal leaders until they were so far beyond hope they couldn't survive. Religion didn't help the Norse Greenlanders who were unable to adapt sustainable measures to deal with their environmental woes and were driven out by a group who could (Inuit Greenlanders). What helps is not making blanket statements like "Deforestation is bullshit, we've been hearing that the end of the world is nigh for millenia, it must not be true."

This doesn't just include deforestation, it includes mass clearing of native vegetation resulting in massive erosion. This contributes to global climate change by altering groundwater makeup, damaging ocean/river ecosystems due to runoff and sediment buildup, reducing the amount of CO2 suppressing plant life, reducing the amount of usable greenery that animals can graze on, the list goes on and on and on and on.

The past DOES repeat itself, if you take the time to look at historical events and take even a minute or two to make an attempt at drawing the painfully obvious conclusions.

[Cobra951]

"Repent ye sinners, for the end is nigh!" !?!? This religious diatribe is used as a fear tactic... Don't bring religious bullshit into this. Religion didn't help the Anasazi survive when they raped the American southwest through overpopulation and deforestation, becoming extinct or being forced to emigrate to other areas to rape. They were unable to cope with climate change and it was their downfall. Religion didn't help the Easter Islanders who were driven to cannibalism and suicide after they no longer had any trees left to build canoes to leave the island... They blindly followed the will of tribal leaders until they were so far beyond hope they couldn't survive. Religion didn't help the Norse Greenlanders who were unable to adapt sustainable measures to deal with their environmental woes and were driven out by a group who could (Inuit Greenlanders).

Wait up.  That was meant as sarcasm and not intended as a way to bring religion into it.  The simple point is that *your* diatribe reads like a prophecy of doom, offering no more discourse or solutions than your typical myopic preacher's antics on a town square.  I know there are real problems.  I just don't buy into the "we are fucked regardless" mentality.

I thought we were talking about *our* forestry policy.  Wouldn't it be nice if we could control what other people and cultures do.

[Ace_O_Spades]

Well it won't matter what *our* forestry policy is when the other parts of the world collapse under their own misguided policies and drag us down with them.

Think global, it's the only way we're going to survive another 100 years on this planet. We CAN control what other people and cultures do, by refusing to trade with countries that plunder the earth, reducing our own rate of plundering until we can figure out economical means to survive with an alternate lifestyle... But that will probably just end up in massive [civil] war, because nobody wants to give up their standard of living even one iota to ensure there is still breathable air and drinkable water in three generations from now.

Generally I think we're proper fucked (in the ass). It won't matter what you, or I, or anyone thinks because we'll all be dead. And if there is an afterlife I hope I see you in Hell so we can both chuckle and realize how we were both massive hypocrites who fiddled while Rome burned.

[gpw11]

THERE IS NO ROOM ON THE ROCKETS FOR THE SICK OR THE ELDERLY.  WE APOLOGIZE. 

[Quemaqua]

That was such a Keebs moment right there.  Brilliant.

[Raisa]

hypocrites.. most of who joined that live earth concert where just hypocrites trying to make believe they're contributing to saving the earth and thus feel good about themselves.

bastards.. 

good website.

[angrykeebler]

That was such a Keebs moment right there.  Brilliant.

I'm so offended right now.

[Quemaqua]

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.  You should be honored that he gave it his best.

[Ghandi]

Well said Que. I found it funny that you pointed out that he gave it his best, that he fell short.

There will never be another Keebs.


....And I thank God for that.


...

[angrykeebler]

wow..the knife in my back..pull it out

[Ghandi]

Dude..don't believe everything you hear. Half of it is just so that can get in your pants.

Also, that is two homosexual references that I've made tonight. I believe my work here is done.

[gpw11]

DAVE, YOU MUST BE GAY.  YOU MAKE JOKES ABOUT BEING GAY, SO MAYBE YOU ARE GAY