Topic: Silicon Knights suing Epic over Unreal Engine 3

[idolminds]

How odd.

The part I found funny was SK blaming Epic for the current delay of Too Human, and now they have to build their own engine, etc. That game was in development for the Playstation 1, I think you should be used to delays by now, no?

[MysterD]

From Wikipedia, on this title's history...

Development history

Too Human was originally in development for the PlayStation as a 5-disc action-adventure game. It was shown at E3 1999,[1] but shortly before its completion Nintendo announced an exclusive partnership with Silicon Knights, and the game was moved to the Nintendo GameCube in 2000. A teaser trailer was shown at SpaceWorld 2000 showing what appeared to be a re-building of the PlayStation game. The game never surfaced though, and the partnership between the two companies was ended. After this, the title was still thought to be in development for the GameCube, but those plans have since been canceled.

In the May 2005 issue of EGM, Silicon Knights announced a partnership with publisher Microsoft to develop a trilogy revolving around the Too Human universe exclusively for the Xbox 360. The game is being developed using Epic Games' Unreal Engine 3. On the 19th July 2007 it was announced that Silicon Knights were suing Epic Games due to "inadequacies" of Unreal Engine 3 .

I dunno, but given that kind of history, I think I smell DNF-like VaporWare here w/ this title...

[scottws]

How odd.

The part I found funny was SK blaming Epic for the current delay of Too Human, and now they have to build their own engine, etc. That game was in development for the Playstation 1, I think you should be used to delays by now, no?

Yeah, that's pretty hilarious.  As much as I like SK, Too Human will never be finished.  It's laughable that they are blaming the delay on someone else.

[idolminds]

Reading the actual complaint, part of what SK wants to see happen is Epic to give up all the profits from Gears of War. SK doesn't get that money, just Epic doesn't get to keep it.

[scottws]

LOL, why?  Man someone went off the deep end over there.

[idolminds]

They claim that Epic used the money they took from the licensees to build Gears instead of developing the engine/support.

[MysterD]

From GamaSutra, who says they have the copy of the lawsuit itself...

This is quite interesting -- they claim that one Engine showed-up late to them (which is what they are using for Too Human), while they are still waiting for the Engine for an unnamed game they are planning to work on for the PS3.

E3 2006 Issues Documented

A key point of contention is the E3 demo of Too Human, which was not well received - the suit alleges: "The final development kit for the Xbox 360 was released by Microsoft in early September, 2005, meaning that Epic was obligated to deliver a fully operable version of the Engine to Silicon Knights by no later than March, 2006."

"That delivery date is significant, since compliance by Epic would have given Silicon Knights time to prepare an appropriate demonstration version of its Microsoft Xbox 360 game, Too Human, for the very important industry trade show, E3, two months later in May, 2006."

It continues: "Epic apparently was able to achieve a very useable version of the Engine for the Xbox 360 – the version that it kept to itself, for use only on its Gears of War game (as discussed below), to the detriment of Silicon Knights and Epic’s other licensees, as set forth in more detail below. Epic’s plan to avoid its obligations and hoard all of the necessary functionalities not only harmed Silicon Knights and all of Epic’s other licensees in the industry, but also gave Epic a clearly unfair advantage in the industry."

How so? "That advantage was nowhere more evident than at E3 2006, where Gears of War was awarded “Best Game in Show” and garnered nothing but laudatory press. By contrast, Silicon Knights – one of the only other [Unreal Engine 3] developers to publicly display a playable demonstration of its game – saw Too Human roundly criticized in the videogame press for its technical problems and generally unpolished appearance. The damage to Silicon Knights caused by Epic’s misconduct was manifest, because E3 attendees were able to compare Too Human with another game running ostensibly the same game engine, Gears of War, with vastly superior results."

...

PS3 Engine Also Involved?

Separately to the high-profile Too Human, which is Xbox 360 exclusive, Silicon Knights had licensed the engine for the PlayStation 3 and PC as well.

Though other games are not prominently mentioned in the suit, so it's unclear which game this is referring to, Sega signed a deal with Silicon Knights in 2005 for an unspecified next-generation title, and it's noted in the charges:

"More recently, Epic has breached its Agreement with Silicon Knights yet again by missing the six-month deadline for release of an Engine that works on the Playstation 3. Final development kits for that console were released in and around mid-August, 2006, making the functional Engine due to Silicon Knights in February, 2007. Silicon Knights has received no such Engine from Epic."

[idolminds]

Read the suit yourself.

Crazy shit in here. Another part of the agreement is they want out of their contract with Epic, but want to keep using the engine as a framework to build their own and claim by the time Too Human ships all Epic code would be removed.

M.   The Court issue the following judicial declarations:  (1) the Agreement between
Epic and Silicon Knights for a license to the Engine is null and void; (2) Silicon Knights owes no
obligations to Epic under any purported agreement by Silicon Knights to license the Engine; (3)
Silicon Knights is not required to use the Engine in developing any current or future games; (4)
Silicon Knights may alter the Engine without restriction; (5) Silicon Knights is under no
obligation to disclose or share any alterations Silicon Knights makes or causes to be made to the
Engine with anyone, including Epic; (6) Silicon Knights owes no monetary or other obligations
to Epic and/or any of its business partners associated with the agreement to license the Engine;
(7) the game engine developed by Silicon Knights is totally independent of the Unreal Engine 3
and therefore is the sole property of Silicon Knights, or, alternatively, the game engine
developed by Silicon Knights constitutes an “Enhancement” under the terms of the Agreement,
and therefore is the sole property of Silicon Knights under the terms of that Agreement; and (
Silicon Knights owes no obligations, financial or otherwise, to Epic in connection with and/or
related to the Silicon Knights Engine.

[scottws]

Unless Epic was severely negligent in their responsibility, I don't see how Silicon Knights has a chance in hell of winning this suit.

[MysterD]

Another part of the agreement is they want out of their contract with Epic, but want to keep using the engine as a framework to build their own...

LOL @ that.

...and claim by the time Too Human ships all Epic code would be removed.

Oh, please...If they're using UE3 as framework, like they'd remove the Epic's code.... *eye-roll*

Unless Epic was severely negligent in their responsibility, I don't see how Silicon Knights has a chance in hell of winning this suit.

Maybe Silicon is trying to get take a stab at getting Epic to *settle* out of court?

[sirean_syan]

Maybe Too Human isn't a real game at all. It could be something that Silicon Knights made up a long time ago to use in order to stay known every now and again and now it's being used as a way to sue Epic.

[idolminds]

I think the most that would happen is if Epic was late in getting the engine updates out (supposedly the contract stated the engine would be running on various platforms 6 months after the platforms SDKs are released, and they were a year late on 360 and 6 months late on PS3), SK might get a refund or some such. Getting to essentially keep the engine and modify it as they see fit won't happen and taking the profits from Gears away from Epic won't happen.

[sirean_syan]

Yeah, that's just a simple contract breach which makes sense. The other stuff is just blown out of proportion.

Looking around, it seems like there's some rumblings that the UT3 engine isn't quite up to snuff for developers using it. While I don't think that's grounds for lawsuits, it is an interesting twist on the whole deal. Epic would then just have the advantage of being the only major engine out there made for all next generation hardware and now it's biting a lot of developers for getting on the bandwagon too quickly. Either that, or it's just another sign that next generation development is a complete bitch and building games to the new visual standard is something few people can do.... more than likely, I'd guess the later.

[idolminds]

This may bode well for id software, oddly enough. At E3 they showed id Tech 5 running on PC, Mac, 360, and PS3 all at speed, all using the same assets. In fact the artists that made the assets had no idea they were going to be used on the PS3. Looks to be a multi-platform dream engine.

So if this case goes south for Epic and devs get fed up with the engine, id will be there to show off their stuff.

[MysterD]

Maybe Too Human isn't a real game at all. It could be something that Silicon Knights made up a long time ago to use in order to stay known every now and again and now it's being used as a way to sue Epic.

Kind of like DNF and The Phantom, eh?

[scottws]

This may bode well for id software, oddly enough. At E3 they showed id Tech 5 running on PC, Mac, 360, and PS3 all at speed, all using the same assets. In fact the artists that made the assets had no idea they were going to be used on the PS3. Looks to be a multi-platform dream engine.

So if this case goes south for Epic and devs get fed up with the engine, id will be there to show off their stuff.

I still don't get the id tech 5 thing.  It looks like slightly better Doom III to me.  The artists seem really excited about it, but I just don't get it at all.

[MysterD]

I still don't get the id tech 5 thing.  It looks like slightly better Doom III to me.  The artists seem really excited about it, but I just don't get it at all.

I think it had a lot to do w/ the freedom w/ all the "unique" textures and what you can do w/ that.

[scottws]

Yeah, but couldn't they already do unique textures before?  I mean they could, it would just eat up a lot of RAM.

[idolminds]

You could only do so many unique textures before you had to start reusing stuff. Terrain is always tiled, walls usually are as well. With id Tech 5, thats no longer the case. Texture the shit out of everything, because every surface can be unique. Thats what I've been hearing anyway.

As for how it looks...yeah, its still Doom 3-ish. But I think part of that is id itself. Quake Wars, while still D3-ish, is a great looking game.

I'm going to wait a little longer for Quakecon. id is supposed to make its big showing there.

[Quemaqua]

I think id Tech 5 is going to be competitive.  People will be beefing it up as it goes, I'm sure, and the unique elements of the tech sound really impressive.  I think it's going to attract a good chunk of business, even more so if Unreal Engine 3 isn't quite as dev-friendly.  Because it seems like id Tech 5 is going to be *very* dev-friendly just by its very nature.