Author Topic: Next gen consoles question  (Read 9968 times)

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Next gen consoles question
« on: Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 01:45:52 PM »
So I haven't actually bought any of the next gen consoles yet, but I'm finally thinking about it.

Please help me decide.

Wii
Pros:
  • Not made by Sony.
  • It's the one I actually want.
  • It's the only console that people like me can afford, assuming we can find them anywhere.
Cons:
  • It's sold out online, and I haven't seen it in stores. Still. In order to get one, I'd have to pre-order a bundle that costs $500 or so, and comes with a lot of crap I don't want and shouldn't try to pay for.
  • I can imagine the looks I'll get when I tell people that my niece often comes over to play with my Wii.

XBox 360
Pros:
  • Not made by Sony.
  • Backwards compatible, assuming you pony up enough cash.
  • Has a few games I actually want to play.
Cons:
  • Comes in thirty different versions. I don't know which version I need, although I do know the cheap ones are crippled in a few ways you can't fix later.
  • Games and hardware are stupid expensive. Online play may cost extra. Game publishers suck, and will charge you for everything.
  • Microsoft isn't Sony, but they're still pretty friggin' evil.
  • Red Ring of Death.

PS3
Pros:
  • Backwards compatible with all those games I can't play because my PS2 got stolen a few years ago.
  • Supposedly a decent console, if you can ignore the laundry list of faults with it.
Cons:
  • Sony is so incredibly evil that Microsoft looks good by comparison.
  • Even more expensive than the 360.

Offline angrykeebler

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 02:14:57 PM »
Where'd your sign now, bitch?
Suck it, Pugnate.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 02:18:37 PM »
I broke it over your skull. Coincidentally, that's why a) you type like a moron and b) you don't remember me breaking it over your skull.

Offline angrykeebler

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 02:40:55 PM »
lolUMAD?!1
Suck it, Pugnate.

Offline TheOtherBelmont

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 02:49:07 PM »
It's all going to come down to the types of games you want to play.  Each console has their own exclusives.  Sony and Microsoft are going to have more of the grittier action/adventure/RPG/FPS stuff than Nintendo, especially at this point in time. 

The Wii has its own charms but my main gripe with it is that there is a lack of good single player games now and in the future.  Most of the Wii games are fun with friends but that's about it.  I highly enjoy playing Mario Party 8 and Warioware Smooth Moves with friends, but single player is boring as hell.

If you go with the 360 get the $400 system, the $300 core sucks, and the Elite is only if you really, really have to have HDMI support and that bigger HD. Has a good library established, but a good 70% of the games I'm not interested in.  Has a lot of FPS and action/adventure titles that are interesting.  Too many fucking sports/racing games though.

Sony is not as evil as you and other people make them out to be, they have made a lot of big mistakes lately, but there is a good amount of promising games that are coming out for it in 4th quarter of this year and the first two quarters of 2008.   Now would be a good time to jump on that 60 GB system that dropped down to $500 while you can still get it before the $600 80 GB system comes out though.  If you have an HDTV, Blu-Ray looks amazing on it.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 03:02:08 PM »
Under no circumstances would I let myself get forced into buying a bundle I don't want.  Until I can walk into a store and buy something at retail price, I don't consider it a real product.  If the Wii is still a bitch to buy on a casual whim, I'm not interested.

Who said you can't fix a cheap 360 later?  Sure you can.  It's just not nearly as cost-effective as getting something better than the core package up front.

Offline TheOtherBelmont

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 03:09:21 PM »
Who said you can't fix a cheap 360 later?  Sure you can.  It's just not nearly as cost-effective as getting something better than the core package up front.

I probably should have elaborated on why the Core isn't that good.  The memory cards cost $40 at most places and they only hold 256 MB, basically for game save files and maybe a small demo from a demo 360 system at a retailer if they have that set up.  The 20 GB hard drives cost $100.  If you are wanting to download additional content over Live, like demos, maps, patches, music, movies, Live Arcade games etc than get the $400 system up front.  The $400 system has the added benefit of wireless controllers too.  If you can't afford that extra $100 now you can always add a HD to the $300 Core system later like Cobra was referring to.

Also W&C you do know that the $400 X360 isn't backwards compatible with every XBox game?  I just noticed you mentioned that on your list. This is the list of games that are currently backwards compatible.

Offline ren

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 03:59:23 PM »
Wii
Pros:
  • It's the one I actually want.

That basically covers it

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 04:05:28 PM »
I can't believe you left the Phantom off the list. The Phantom totally kicks everyones ass.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 05:51:05 PM »
I have no opinion.  Everybody's different.  I have a 360 because it has the most games I want to play and was reasonably affordable.  The Wii doesn't have enough to attract me yet, and the PS3 is just plain too expensive.  I really dislike the fact that the 360 hardware fails with so many people, and if it ever happens to me I'm going to be fucking pissed, but it was the only console for me that really made sense.  I haven't regretted it at all thus far.

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Offline scottws

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #10 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 05:49:35 AM »
I have a 360 and sort of regret the purchase.  The only games I still have are Madden 07, Gears of War, and Dead Rising.  I sold all the other ones on eBay.  And when I look at Gamespot's preview section, nothing really interests me.  And I'll go to the store and look at all the titles, wanting to buy something.  But there is nothing of interest.

Actually the last point is kind of a problem with all the consoles right now.  There just isn't enough good stuff out at all for the lastest generation of hardware.

As I've said in every other thread that people bitch about the Wii in:  if you expect to find the next MGS or Silent Hill or Halo or Gears of War or Oblivion, you are looking in the wrong place.  To me, there isn't anything about the Wii that makes me think it is going to have a bunch of great single-player games.  The Wii is an awesomely fun multiplayer system.  If you are looking for primarily single-player experiences, don't get a Wii, it's that simple.  Quit trying to make the Wii into something it is not, and then complaining about it.  It's exactly like bitching about the off-road capabilities of a Ford Mustang.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #11 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 06:40:56 AM »
I think a lack of games on the PS3 is sort of a valid complaint right now, but I don't think it is for the 360.  Obviously it depends on taste, but I find Scott to be very picky.  I think the library is just fine.  Not huge, granted, but there's still a lot of good stuff on the console right now.  A lot of PC games will be on it as well, so that's something to consider if you don't have the cash to upgrade your PC.

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Offline scottws

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #12 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 07:41:10 AM »
Whether I'm picky or not doesn't matter as far as I'm concerned.  I haven't turned on the 360 in a month, maybe two.  The Darkness looks okay, but ultimately too graphically violent for my tastes.

Meanwhile I've been playing the hell out of my Gamecube and, to a lesser extent, Jennie's PS2 (mine's broke).

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #13 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 07:51:47 AM »
Obviously it wouldn't matter as far as you're concerned, but it very well might to someone who isn't as picky.  I have 9 games for my 360, all of which I enjoy quite a bit and have played extensively, and there are several others I'd probably own if I actually had the money for them.  Plus the only Live Arcade title I own is Geometry Wars, so I haven't played almost anything from there, and I don't do online multiplayer because I refuse to pay for it.  So I'm not saying your opinion is invalid or anything, I'm just saying if somebody doesn't have quite as much difficulty finding games they really like, the library would open up a bit more for them than it would for you.  In that sense, I think the 360 beats the other current consoles.  Though I'd agree with you that I still play my last-gen systems far more.  The PS2 retrospective podcast was really only a small indicator of all the stuff for the system that I want to play.  There are still tons of games I want for my PS2, it's crazy.

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Offline iPPi

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #14 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 08:18:35 AM »
You are not alone as well scott.  I haven't been able to find anything that I really want to play right now on the 360.  I'm only really playing Guitar Hero 2 and that's about it right now.  I've stopped playing R6: Vegas and Gears of War.  I'm basically waiting for the next killer app for the 360. 

Still, there are several games on the horizon that I'm looking forward to.  Mass Effect, Bioshock, Assassin's Creed.  Needless to say the latter two will be available for the PC as well, so I'll have to decide which one is the superior version when they are released.

Offline scottws

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #15 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 08:26:35 AM »
Yeah Bioshock I'm interested in, but I was planning on getting it for PC.

Mass Effect... maybe.  I have come to realize that I just don't like RPGs all that much.  I have only finished one RPG ever, and I probably own ten or fifteen.  At some point I always end up finding them completely boring, even if there is a high initial interest.

Assasin's Creed I haven't followed at all, so I don't know anything about that.  But I would probably get it on PC if it's a PC game like you say.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #16 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 08:33:27 AM »
Unfortunately, there's a real dearth of exclusive titles all around, these days.  I think we'll end up seeing some more down the road, but my guess is a lot of those are going to be on the PS3, not as much the 360.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline K-man

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #17 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 09:33:00 AM »
The PS3 is a waste of money right now, but it won't be like that forever.

The 360 has a solid library of games, a wonderful UI, and an online system that is still superior.

If I had the Wii as my only console I would weep at my misfortune.  It's a good diversionary console, but there's no way in hell i'd make it my only console.


And those games you're (maybe) interested in Scott that are coming out on PC.  It's a pretty safe bet that the console release of those games are going to be better than their PC counterparts.


If you look at everything, the 360 really is the best deal for the money right now.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #18 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 10:16:34 AM »
I highly doubt the console versions of the aforementioned games will be superior.  In my opinion, unless a game on PC is a crappy port of a game originally developed for a console, it's going to be superior.  Well, unless you have a shitty rig.  I don't, and I don't think Scott does either.  That doesn't necessarily mean it'll be a landslide, as I'm sure Bioshock on 360 would be great too, but superior?  Not with a top-end system.  The only reason Assassin's Creed might be better would be control via pad instead of kb/mouse (it doesn't strike me as a kb/mouse game), but who doesn't have a pad for their PC now?  Even if you don't actually have one, a lot of people have a 360 pad to spare for the job.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline K-man

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #19 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 12:11:58 PM »
Name three console/PC releases in the past year where the console version has been inferior.  I'll go ahead and give you Command and Conquer 3, for the sole reason that RTS just can't be done effectively with a gamepad.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #20 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 12:29:13 PM »
Why does it have to be in the past year?

But that doesn't interest me much anyway.  I'm just curious what exactly you would consider better about basically any console game.  The general principle is that console games tend to be less buggy due to standard hardware (except that's rapidly changing for the worse, rendering that argument ineffective in many cases) but PC games have the opportunity to both look and perform better due to increased hardware power.  That's performance in terms of load times and framerates, and graphical fidelity in terms of resolution, anti-aliasing, texture resolution, etc.  Plus you've got user content and mods on the PC side, something that's still almost nonexistent on the console side of things, not to mention the ability to fuck around with stuff by taking screens, making movies, taking the game apart and messing with art assets, what have you.  And, last but not least, we have to remember that while you can easily plug a controller into a PC for games that work better with them, you can't plug a mouse and keyboard into a console whenever you want.  A few have had them as accessories, but few to no games actually supported them.  And who could forget that PC games have free multiplayer where you have to pay for it on the 360?

Anyway, I can't think of many specific examples of games this year specifically just because I haven't played a lot of cross-platform stuff this year.  Tons of other examples come to mind, however, for all the reasons above.  The only current thing coming to mind is Overlord, though I think that game has minor problems on both platforms.  Oblivion, which while not from this year is something I'm currently playing again anyway, and that's a blatantly obvious one.  I know you really liked that one, and I assume Morrowind before it, but you can't possibly try to tell me that either of those games were better on consoles than on the PC.  Obviously these are limited examples, but I don't think I really need to detail that many games to illustrate the point.  I believe the above paragraph speaks for itself.  Console advantages are limited to standard hardware and lower cost.  That's it, period.

I love console games just as much as PC games, so don't think I'm trying to be elitist.  I'll play anything as long as its good, and if I had the money I would own every console on the market.  However, the PC has obvious advantages, and most of the time that equals a superior game when it comes to cross-platform titles.

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Offline iPPi

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #21 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 12:51:22 PM »
The last couple of cross platform games that have been coming out seem to be superior on the console when compared to the PC though.

Like I said, since I've got a powerful PC, and a 360, I will definitely decide which version is superior and buy the better version when they are out. 

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #22 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 01:03:34 PM »
Which games?  The only ones I can think of are some of the Ubisoft ones that people have been complaining about, but that seems largely due to obscene levels of negligence on the part of the developers, which is sort of a special circumstance.

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Offline K-man

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #23 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 01:44:55 PM »
I think Oblivion (aside from the ability to mod) is much better on the 360 due largely to the fact that the game is suited perfectly to the 360 controller. 

You've got the exclusive PC titles.  Great.  But the PC games that were a port from a console title or were released along with the console version have seemed more like an afterthought than an actual release.  It's very obvious that developers are focused on console games, not PC titles.  And why wouldn't they?  Consoles have a major market tied to them.  Sure, everyone owns a PC.  But does everyone own a PC capable of displaying next-gen titles?  No, probably not.  In fact I'd say that at least 75% of computer owners have whatever they caught on sale at wal mart, dell, or god forbid, gateway.  The majority of the population is nowhere near as hardcore about their rig as we are.

I could go on my huge diatribe about how I think PC gaming is a dying format. 

And while not directly tied to hardware/software specs, I'd like to make this point as well.  A lot of us spend so much time at work in front of computers.  The last thing I want to do when I get home is sit in front of a computer.  I'd much rather spend my time being comfortable on the couch with a controller in my hand.

Offline scottws

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #24 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 04:52:22 PM »
I think Oblivion (aside from the ability to mod) is much better on the 360 due largely to the fact that the game is suited perfectly to the 360 controller. 
I could care less about Oblivion and have never played any version; but, I use my 360 wireless pad with my PC all the time, rendering that advantage null and void.

While it's not released yet, I think there is a good chance Gears of War will be better on the PC.  I mean it already has the extra content going for it.  It's possible that the game will work very well with a kb/m setup, and if not you can always use a gamepad.  The only thing remaining could be that it's a shoddy piece of work in comparison to the 360 original, but I think Epic knows their way around PC development so I'm not worried they can handle it.

I expect Bioshock to be a better experience on PC as well.

Whether or not you think that PC gaming is dying is irrelevant, as the current discussion relates to the quality of specific games on different platforms.

I'm with Que on this.  I'm pretty shocked to hear that anyone would make a general statement that console versions are better.  Sure, there are specific examples (Rainbow Six: Vegas, Resident Evil 4, Final Fantasy VII), but I think if looked at as a whole, the scale tilts heavily in favor of PC.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #25 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 05:02:24 PM »
See, K-Man (and I like K-Man, so I mean no disrespect) is really just throwing out semantics.  Again, you can get a controller to work for Oblivion just fine.  Even a 360 controller if you like, and I entirely disagree that it's the better control method.  I've played it on both systems and I by *far* prefer a keyboard and mouse.  That isn't a PC bias... because again, I could use a controller if I wanted to... it's just preference.  Case in point, even if you *couldn't* use a controller and even if that *was* the better control method, that would in no way make up for all the endless piles of modding awesomeness that I've got going on Oblivion right now.  In about 20 seconds I could completely and utterly blow the 360 version of this game out of the fucking water, and that isn't just BS that I can't back up.  I'd be more than happy to list all the mods I've got running, not to mention the numerous user-created bugfixes that 360 people will never see, rendering a lot of their content unfixable (as Cobra will attest).  In fact, it took less than 1 day for the PC version to be made graphically superior to the 360 version in at least 3 different ways, and if you'd like to see screenshots to prove just how much better my game looks than yours, I'd be happy to oblige.  I have over 1,500.  But graphics aren't everything, right?  So I've got gameplay mods up the wazoo, all of which are awesome, balanced, and useful, none of which are huge alterations to the core stuff like a lot of people have taken to on the PC side.  Trust me, if you claim that Oblivion is better on 360, you're either incredibly ignorant or just unwilling to admit the obvious.

I mean no offense when I say the following, K, because I think you're a really cool guy and I think you and I are actually on the same page when it comes to a lot of gaming stuff (just from what I've heard you talk about and your contributions to the podcast), but I absolutely *loathe* anyone that says PC gaming is a dying format.  That literally just makes me want to punch you in the face for being so shortsighted (well, maybe not punch you in the face, but you get that I feel strongly about this, right?).  Sure, plenty of people don't play games on their computers, and plenty of people don't have powerhouse systems, but if you actually look at the sales ratings you'll find that tons of people still buy and play PC games regularly, and with downloadable stuff growing the way it has, you're seeing even more people move over to that market.  Sure, that market is expanding on consoles also, but you'll find that tons of people with consoles capable of going online just don't do it.  That isn't why they bought the system.

Also, I'm perfectly comfortable in front of my computer.  I have a desk job, but so what?  I have a super comfy chair, a beautiful little monitor, whatever.  I play my 360 on the same monitor.  It's actually far more comfortable than my couch and the gaming chair I use for whatever console is hooked up to the TV in the spare room, so... yeah.  That's just preference and isn't an even remotely valid argument on the whole.

So while I hear what you're saying, and I've heard it all before, including years and years ago at a time when PC gaming wasn't even as popular as it is now (which, by the way, indicates growth since, not reduction), and I continue to disagree with you.  You may argue more if you like, but bear in mind that I will happily sit here and refute everything you say all day long.  If anything, console games have begun to get more and more like PC games, inheriting some of the problems PC games have had in the past due to the flexibility of patching and differences between console hardware and settings that were never there before.  That goes double when you factor in shitty consoles like the 360 with faulty hardware.  So you're getting more problems without much added benefit at this point, and while I'm sure the benefits will continue to increase as the consoles become ever more PC-like, that doesn't mean PCs are in any danger.  It just means consoles are getting more complicated, less reliable, and less affordable, making them even less attractive when compared to a PC.  Not to mention that I recently bought the same game for my PC at around 40 bucks, while the 360 version was 20 dollars more.  1/3 price difference?  Not bad.  And that isn't because they have to drop the PC version price to sell more, because PC gamers have paid more reasonable prices in general for a long time.  They jack the console game prices UP.

EDIT - Damn, I need to spend more time proofreading before I post.  Minor edits to random stuff.

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Offline K-man

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #26 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 05:48:38 PM »
Scott, if you look at the entire history of gaming then yes you would see that the numbers tilt strongly in PC gaming's favor.  For years there was always a strong divide between console games and PC games.  Console games were decidedly less involved and of lower quality.  I think this generation of consoles effectively blurs that line.  5 years ago I couldn't say that every simultaneous release for PC/Console would be at the very least comparable.  I can say that with confidence today.

Que, I'm not dirtying up this thread with my reply about PC gaming as a dying format.  I'll start another thread for it and we can continue our discussion there if you so choose.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #27 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 06:38:51 PM »
No lie about Ques screenshots. I saw the directory, he has that many. Its like 2gigs or something of screenshots.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #28 on: Thursday, July 26, 2007, 07:52:47 PM »
I've had no problem finding games I like on the 360, up through Forza 2 anyway.  I was as hooked on Test Drive Unlimited as I've ever been on any game.  I'm not sorry at all I got the 360.  Now that I've played what I've wanted to play, maybe things are getting a bit thin.  I'm interested in The Darkness, but I'm leery about the lockups.  I have a feeling the problem is hardware-related in the same way as the Oblivion lockups.  A software crash is always bad programming, though, even if it's due to a problem that didn't surface during testing on perfect hardware.  The software should always deal with read errors gracefully.  So I'm definitely not letting the developers off the hook here.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #29 on: Friday, July 27, 2007, 12:36:55 AM »
You're all fuggin' useless.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #30 on: Friday, July 27, 2007, 12:47:49 PM »
As the author of the most recent post before your heartfelt thanks, I feel compelled to take the lion's share of the credit, even if it seems somewhat conceited.  You are most welcome.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #31 on: Friday, July 27, 2007, 01:16:38 PM »
Basically, but a 360 Premium. Its the middle model. The Core has some shortcomings, and the Elite isn't really worth it. 360 has some really nice games out and more are coming this year. Can't really go wrong. You may want to wait just a bit longer as the current rumor is a $50 price drop in Aug.

Buy a Wii if you can find it, but good luck with that. Also, hope you like party games because thats what seems to be mainly on the Wii right now. Hopefully companies come to grips with it and release more singleplayer type games.

Wait on the PS3. Nothing to play, way overpriced...who knows where its going.

Offline K-man

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #32 on: Friday, July 27, 2007, 01:27:30 PM »

Wait on the PS3. Nothing to play, way overpriced...who knows where its going.

*Until MGS4 hits.  I'll buy it faster than you can say "snake?  Snake? SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE!"


Honestly if you've got the dough, it's hard to beat the 360/Wii Combo right now.  And Idol's right about the Elite 360.  Unless you're planning on downloading a shit tonne of content or watching a lot of rented HD movies from the marketplace, HDMI really doesn't offer that much over the current component inputs.  You might get a little more crisp picture...maybe.  But your games aren't going to upconvert to 1080p or anything.  Since the hard drive is available separately (albeit at an insane price), the HDMI output is the only thing you'd get that's exclusive to the elite system.

And honestly, I have yet to fill up my 20 gig drive.  Just delete stuff you don't want anymore.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #33 on: Friday, July 27, 2007, 06:46:41 PM »
Hell, the only thing I was worried about 360-wise was that I wouldn't be able to download all the new Gears of War stuff that was coming to PC, but now that we know it *isn't*... well, I have no use for the hard disk again.  I'm sure there will be other stuff down the road that'll make me want one, but right now I haven't even filled the 64MB memory unit I bought (and buying the core system was still the dumbest thing I've ever done).

So yeah, what everybody else said.

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Offline Ghandi

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Re: Next gen consoles question
« Reply #34 on: Friday, July 27, 2007, 08:26:03 PM »