Topic: PC Gaming: A Dying Platform?

[K-man]

I wanted to start a new thread about this topic due to a discussion on the subject that inadvertently got started here

http://www.overwritten.net/forum/index.php?topic=2498.0

We were throwing the thread off-topic and that wasn't fair to the thread starter.


Anyhow, Que and I both feel pretty strongly on the subject, albeit being polar opposites.  Que offered up a decent explanation in the thread above as to why he feels the way he does.  Now I'll do the same.

Keep in mind that I love gaming on the PC still, and that some games (FPS, RTS, et al) belong on a PC with a mouse/keyboard setup and not a controller.  This is not to say that I don't believe the PC as a gaming platform is in a helluva shape right now.  I'll start with the sales numbers for PC titles in the past nine years

    * 1998 - $1.7 billion
    * 1999 - $1.9 billion
    * 2000 - $1.78 billion (84.9 million units)
    * 2001 - $1.75 billion (83.6 million units)
    * 2002 - $1.4 billion (61.5 million units)
    * 2003 - $1.2 billion (52.8 million units)
    * 2004 - $1.1 billion (45 million units)
    * 2005 - $953 million (38 million) [5] + $344 million digital sales [6]
    * 2006 - $970 million [7]

Essentially PC game sales have been in a steady decline for the past 7 years.  Keep in mind that 970 million isn't terrible.  I mean that's a large chunk of change.  But when you compare it to console gaming you get the following:





Console game sales are increasing while PC game sales are decreasing.  There could be potentially a lot of reasons, and probably a mixture of the reasons listed below

1.  The most obvious is that people are buying more console games and less PC titles.
2.  Monthly fee titles (MMO's and the like) hold users attentions for long periods of time (I am not certain whether or not monthly gaming fees are included in the above numbers, but I would guess that they are not)
3.  The availability of high speed Internet connections has effectively made piracy easier than before.
4.  The quality of selection in PC gaming has steadily declined (part personal opinion here, but retail is downsizing all of their PC game sections, so its not hard to figure out)
5.  Kind of a tie-on to number 4, the developers are going where the money is (Consoles)
6.  Consoles now can offer experiences that could only be had on the PC just a few years ago

Not to say that there aren't experiences that can only still be had on a PC.  I reiterate my previous point by saying that a gamepad will never be a bonafide replacement for a mouse/keyboard for FPS and RTS titles.  It's just not feasible to think so.  However, where we used to see PC titles ported to consoles, we're now seeing the exact opposite happen.  Console titles are getting ported to PC, oftentimes with disastrous results (RE4).

But numbers don't tell the whole story.  I'd say that the majority of us here at Overwritten have relatively cutting edge PC's that we are entirely capable of using.  The majority of PC owners do not.  In fact, we're a decidedly small sect (albeit dedicated) group of people compared to the PC owning masses.  You throw a regular joe a high end gaming PC and let him loose on it, he's apt to fubar it in less than an hour.  With consoles the regular joes don't have to worry about that.  They just throw a disc into a slot and pick up a controller.  They can hook up to their big screen TV's and their home theater systems.  To them, an extra few frames a second and better graphics mean little. Especially when it comes at a much higher price.  They don't have to worry about upgrading.  They buy a box and they're done. 

I may have come across differently than I intended to in the other thread.  I do not think that high end gaming PC's are inherently inferior to their console counterparts.  Quite the contrary.  DX10 is going to again raise the graphical bar for what is capable in PC's.  At that point we'll start to see a divide again.  But from a developer standpoint, are you going to spend resources to develop for PCs, a small user base, or are you going to cater to the masses by putting your efforts into a console game?  Sure, we still have our dedicated PC developers churning out hits every few years (Blizzard, Valve, and some lesser-known studios making a name for themselves), but when devleopers are taking a console title and porting it to PC without making much of an effort it's pretty obvious they're out for a quick buck from the PC crowd and nothing more.

Another thing that I think really hurts the PC is the insistence on staying in their niche market.  A look down the PC aisle will point you to one of the following:
1.  Pop Capesque puzzle games
2.  First Person Shooters
3.  Strategy Games
4.  The occasional RPG
5.  MMOs

Online services like Steam are pretty much the only outlet for those lesser known titles to get some recognition.  Games like Rag Doll Kung Fu wouldn't sell on shelves.  Darwinia wouldn't have sold on shelves.  Word of mouth sold those games, and that's about all the advertisement small developers can hope for in the PC realm. 

In short, the PC has the capacity to provide a better experience with gaming, but consoles have leapfrogged because they're easier to develop around and the market demands it.  Therefore consoles are getting all the attention and PCs get the scraps and whatever is left of the hardcore PC developers.

[idolminds]

Sales numbers are hard to track on PC, especially considering the many, many places that sell digital downloads. Steam being one of the "big" places has never released any sales stats. So who knows what the real numbers would be.

And I don't really think its fair to compare PC sales stats to a generic "console" sales stat. First and most obvious, thats lumping many different consoles together. Xbox, Xbox 360, PS2, PS3, Gamecube, Wii, GBA, DS, PSP currently. Sure the last gen systems are dying down now but they still sell games. So thats a 9 on 1 battle the PC is trying to fight in statistics. Not really fair. Add on to that the fact that usually the sales of the console hardware itself is included in the statistics shifts the balance out even further. We dont include videocard sales in judging the PC platform.

Not too long ago I did a little investigation and math on sales stats. Taking each individual platform by itself and removing hardware sales from the stats, it turns out the PC isn't really doing that much worse than any one console. I might have posted that here (I know I did a more in-depth look in an IGN post...if I can find it).

[K-man]

The numbers i quoted above added 344 million for digital distribution in 2005.  While that may or may not be representative of what's being sold today, the fact of the matter is that PC game sales had been in decline long before DD was an option.

You may be right about the individual console statistics.  They may very well be comparable to PC sales.  But we have a limited amount of free time that any of us are willing to play video games.  And when we're playing console games we're not playing PC games.  Console game sales are rising while PC game sales are falling.  Even generiously adjusted for digital distribution there's still a huge divide.

I just found this:

The latest official sales estimates are 3 million, and therefore Steam sales number either 750 000 if the 3 million includes them, or 937 500 if it does not.  As of 2005 per this website:  http://steamreview.org/posts/finances/

[idolminds]

Found that thread.

So if you add the sales plus digital then profits went up in 2005 ($1.2b). Still that doesn't include subscription prices of MMOs and without a truely accurate way to track the digital sales, its really hard to estimate.

But...meh. You'll never see shit like CalCiv2 on a console, and there will always be people that want to make those games for the people that want to play them. Who knows, maybe the PC will become more niche and hardcore?


You know, this would make a great podcast debate.

[K-man]

I agree.  I'm not downing PC games in any way.  They certainly have their advantages.  PC games have been deeper, more involved experiences.  And as Que pointed out in the other thread, they're also generally cheaper than console games. 

I'm not suggesting that PC games will go the way of the arcade.  I'm just asserting that PC gaming unfortunately is becoming more and more insignificant.

And yes, I do believe this topic would make for a fine podcast.  At the very least Que can't punch me in the face over teamspeak =)

[MysterD]

Console titles are getting ported to PC, oftentimes with disastrous results (RE4).

I would love to respond to this one.

I wouldn't say it's disastrous. If it was disasterous, they would've got nothing right.

Now, I am loving this game on the PC, currently. I'll take this over Halo PC any given day. The RE4 game itself is awesome, pretty much. The graphics are very good. And the framerate in the game are actually very good -- should be, since it was a PS2 port. I should note, that Capcom and Konami have always somehow gotten great looking games out of very weak hardware such as the PS2 -- so, it's no surprise that the RE4 game looked pretty good on the PC. Also, I've never RE4 PC hit below 30 FPS (or above, for that matter) -- EVER.

The only major issue I have w/ RE4 PC is the PC version's KB/mouse controls suck. Namely b/c of the lack of mouselook is the biggest mistake here. The game's KB/controls would be fine, if it actually supported the mouse. Though, there are modders who are working on this -- so, if you do want mouselook, keep your eyes peeled for this upcoming RE4 mod! I do wish UbiSoft would officially add this feature, myself....

Now, I do happen to have a PC gamepad (Wingman Logitech RumblePad USB, to be exact) -- and most console gamers use a gamepad, anyways. So, likely, if you're a gamer, you know to be ready with your KB/mouse and gamepad on the PC, if you want to possibly play a console game on the PC, if worse comes to worst -- yup, in case the controls on the KB/mouse got botched. If you are a console gamer and a PC gamer -- yet, for some odd reason, you don't have pure PC Gamepad, or a PS-to-PC control pad converter so you can use your PlayStation controller on the PC, PC gamepad, or a X360 gamepad (which will plug into a USB port and you can get Windows drivers for), you're not covering your bases; especially w/ the amount of console games that get ported right over to the PC, these day and age.

On RE4 PC, the lack of quality in the pre-rendered movies isn't that big of a deal, honestly. It's not horrible, yet it ain't good, either. Somewhere in-between that -- they're just plain okay.

I'm not suggesting that PC games will go the way of the arcade.  I'm just asserting that PC gaming unfortunately is becoming more and more insignificant.

If it's so "insignificant", then many of the great PC games just wouldn't be ported over to the console, at later dates in time -- such as HL2 and FEAR. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if STALKER: Shadow makes it way to the PC in the future, either -- since FPS's have finally, in the last few years, caught on to console gamers. PC Games have been so "insignificant", that many of the PC-only franchise properties and PC-only game developers are NOW developing for both the PC and console...

If anything, is true here consoles are trying to be more like PC's -- especially when it comes to hardware aspect of things. What's next? Consoles deciding to adopt usage of a KB/mouse for games? It'd be a smart movem if you ask me -- they might actually have a decent RTS/Strategy market, if they go *that* route... Who knows, maybe one day, there might even be modding on a console...!

Let's look at the XB Live. Downloading new content and patches to games? That began as a PC-thing, pretty much.

You know, there's always this rant of "PC Gaming Is Dying" a little before and after a new console or two or three get dropped. Even more so than ever, since consoles are starting to get WAY MORE EXPENSIVE and use hardware closer to those of what a powerful gaming PC would be at the time of the console's release. Well, now Vista's here and DX10 is here -- and once the developers AND gamers actually latch on to what Win Vista and DX10 can REALLY DO (we ain't really seen that, yet...maybe Crysis under DX10 will show us....), we'll again be WAY ahead of the consoles. Eventually, here's what'll happen: the static-consoles just won't keep up w/ the ever-changing PC (b/c a console's hardware is static; it's not ever-changing) as more new hardware for the PC gets churned out over the span of a few years, so console companies will have no choice but to release a new console every few years; usually, some 3-4 years later, they drop a new one -- it's a trend that keeps on continuing and continuing....

...Here's the trend: New console drops that's closer to the PC's current hardware than ever before (but it won't pass a new PC, b/c it would cost too much for a game console to do so, so nobody would buy it), PC tech advances over the years, PC gamers upgrade parts/OS, PC gets way ahead for a while, 3-4 years later it's time for new console to be dropped, repeat cycle.

Most consoles have a GeForce high-6 series card equivalent or its ATI equivalent. Right now, those are becoming our minimum on the PC. Now, for a max (at least for now), the GeForce 8800's are here. PC games are already way ahead of console gamers, on the hardware end of the graphics department -- that's TWO card series generations ahead already. I'm sure it'll only continue, since I'm sure NVidia and ATI are working on making more NEWER bleeding-edge vid cards as we speak....

[Jedi]

Most consoles have a GeForce high-6 series card equivalent or its ATI equivalent. Right now, those are becoming our minimum on the PC. Now, the GeForce 8800's are here. PC games are already way ahead of console gamers, on the hardware end of the graphics department. I'm sure it'll only continue, since I'm sure NVidia and ATI are working on making more NEWER bleeding-edge vid cards as we speak....

Well duh D. You have to realise that this is a superfluous argument, what you just described is actually a cycle, every new generation of console takes a leap forward, then the PC market spends a year (or two max) catching up, then a few more years later another generation of consoles are released.

While I don't think the PC market is dying I know I've stopped playing games on a PC for the simple fact that buying a 360 was an easier and cheaper option to upgrading my PC.

[MysterD]

Well duh D. You have to realise that this is a superfluous argument, what you just described is actually a cycle, every new generation of console takes a leap forward, then the PC market spends a year (or two max) catching up, then a few more years later another generation of consoles are released.

If anyone is playing catch-up, it'll always be the consoles. PS3 and X360 don't do anything DX10 does. And they don't have the GeForce 8800's of the world, either. PC's way ahead, already! X360 and PS3 ain't even been out that long yet!!!

PC doesn't catch-up; it's always ahead of the consoles -- even if it ain't by very much, we'll always have more power than them. We bleed new power, since we're the test-bed of all of the power. We get parts before they really get utilized to their potential on the market. When we see a new vid card on the PC, it goes for sometimes $400 at least alone; the cost of a new console. Most PC gamers, they'll buy the card in the $100-220 range. PC gamers can change parts in and out, if they want more out of their system. Consoles don't have that luxury. If a console was more powerful than the PC, no console gamer would buy it -- it'd be too expensive for both the console makers AND the consumer. The consumer might as well buy a PC that does gaming -- and then do some other stuff, for that kind of cost.

I've never seen a console released w/ more hardware power than a brand-new PC. Period. Even the X360 wasn't topping the newest PC's power, at its time of release.

While I don't think the PC market is dying I know I've stopped playing games on a PC for the simple fact that buying a 360 was an easier and cheaper option to upgrading my PC.

And you'll be missing out on some PC-only games, then....
...Just as I've missed out on some great console-only games, b/c I ain't buying a console.

[Quemaqua]

I appreciate your efforts, K-Man, but I still think you're not going to win this argument.  Nobody is saying that the PC is tops all around in terms of sales, but idol already mentioned some flaws in the numbers, such as you can't track PC sales in the same way.  You can't just look at PS3s sold and then look at PCs sold.  If you did, you'd have 8 gajillion more PCs because, as you said, not all those would be used for gaming.  Yet a lot of them are.  And what about video cards and such, as idol mentioned?  A lot of reports don't even factor those sales in at all.

Anyway, you also have to remember that PC gaming is not only for the hardcore.  How many copies of The Sims and The Sims 2 sold?  Sure, they have lousy console counterparts, but those games topped the charts for lord only knows how long, and those weren't people with hardcore gaming rigs.  Those were idiots with spyware-laden Dells.  And, if you haven't noticed, most cardboard cutout PC manufacturers are starting to make high-end lines with more powerful computers for people who don't want to have to think about building them.  You just pay up front, and there you go: a gaming rig.  Believe me, there are plenty of people who know fuck all about computers and still go that route because they want to play games.  You haven't mentioned that group at all, and they're out there.  When I was working at EB years ago that was a big market for me in terms of sales.  I found a lot of guys who were curious but weren't PC guys, but they ended up becoming converts after starting with a pre-built rig and such.  And again, there are markets for casual PC gamers who don't play super-killer, high-end titles, but they're still spending money.

And what about seeing more PC ports of console games?  What does that really say?  It says there's another market a company wants to tap, nothing more.  Which means they obviously feel there's money to be made there, not the opposite.  If there was a *lack* of console ports on the PC then you might have an argument.  PC developers knew that consoles made money, so it made sense to try and tap those markets.  They've done so, quite successfully.  A lot of the games some seem to keep calling "console games" are really just cross-platform developments, not specifically built for anything in particular.  They're just built to go on everything these days.  PC developers know how to do this a hell of a lot better than console developers for the most part (as we mentioned already... bad console ports abound), so all that says is that we've either got consistency in the development process or we don't.  Platform doesn't have much to do with it.  It's all about whoever is developing it and what their strengths are.

Anyway, even if everything you said is true, it still doesn't spell any kind of doom for PC gaming.  As mentioned, it *is* a niche, hardcore market *in certain sub-sectors of the market whole*.  Those sub-sectors still make money.  Games are still made, people are still buying.  Maybe they don't make as much, and maybe the PC developers are trying to tap into the higher-grossing console market in order to pull in extra bucks, but the whole debate that started this was: are PC or console versions of games the "best" version?  As far as I can tell, all we've done thus far is thoroughly demonstrate that yes, 90% of the time, if a game isn't a console game ported over to the PC (i.e. if it was a PC game that went to consoles or if it was a game simultaneously developed for both PCs and consoles), the PC version is going to be superior *most* of the time for obvious reasons.  It sort of seemed like you wanted to say that wasn't true at first, but I'm hoping now that we've clarified all the specifics of what we meant, we can all agree that this is plainly the case.

Now, step #2 along those lines.  Again, even if everything you said is true, it *again* doesn't spell doom for PC gaming because the PC is still our forefront technology showcase.  It evolves, and rapidly.  The latest consoles always get a bit of buzz about what's happening when they come out, then in a year or two the leaps in technology which slowly become available on the PC allow even more amazing things to happen, and then, like clockwork, the PC again takes the technology spotlight because it's the ONLY thing with that much horsepower IN PEOPLE'S HANDS.  While this may not equal raw sales, it does mean that people are watching.  Sure, Joe 360 over there may not have the money to blow on a new gaming rig, but you can bet that he's going over to his hardcore buddy's house to check out the new system, or he's watching videos of the latest amazing engine being run on the latest PC hardware on GSpot, or whatever.  People still pay attention to that, so even if not everyone is spending money, the simple showcase nature of it always creates enough draw for SOME people to spend, and when you can cater to a hardcore market of early adopters in PC technology, you cater to technology companies who are trying to push new hardware on that crowd as well.  While none of this equals chart-topping sales, it doesn't indicate death by any stretch of the imagination.  It indicates a smaller group of people willing to spend even more money.  Add to this the fact that, as we discussed in the podcast, the PC is the least restrictive content-wise of any platform, you're going to see a lot more branching markets move their business into that arena in the coming years.  The sex game industry is basically going to be there exclusively, and if you don't think that's going to make money, you're out of your mind.  If things like this Manhunt 2 situation become more normal, you'll also probably see more "extreme" content going that way, too.

Anyway, I cheerfully disagree with your assertions.  I don't think we really even feel so differently about the landscape of the industry as a whole, I just don't see things as much different now than they ever were, nor do I think the PC is going to see a particularly massive drop in overall profitability.  I think the longer we go and the more PC-like the consoles become, the more console games you're going to be able to get on your PC, especially where the online markets are concerned.

Lastly, in regards to Jedi vs. D there, D is completely right.  The consoles are *never* ahead in reality, only in terms of market saturation.  The PC technology is always advancing, always ahead.  The only real difference is that it usually isn't cost-feasible for the latest and greatest stuff when new consoles are released, so you don't see it really get into the market for a little while after that.  You have to remember also that most console manufacturers are taking huge losses on their hardware to even *get* the stuff out to the public at all!  But Jedi *probably* meant what was in the market in the first place, not just what is theoretically available, so I doubt the two of you really have differing opinions on the subject when you get down to it.  We all know the cycles.

[MysterD]

Anyway, you also have to remember that PC gaming is not only for the hardcore.  How many copies of The Sims and The Sims 2 sold?  Sure, they have lousy console counterparts, but those games topped the charts for lord only knows how long, and those weren't people with hardcore gaming rigs.  Those were idiots with spyware-laden Dells.

And God knows what other rigs! You could run Sims 2 w/ an integrated Intel-based vid card, depending on if your processor met that "extra speed" requirement!

And what about seeing more PC ports of console games?  What does that really say?  It says there's another market a company wants to tap, nothing more.  Which means they obviously feel there's money to be made there, not the opposite.  If there was a *lack* of console ports on the PC then you might have an argument.  PC developers knew that consoles made money, so it made sense to try and tap those markets.  They've done so, quite successfully.  A lot of the games some seem to keep calling "console games" are really just cross-platform developments, not specifically built for anything in particular.  They're just built to go on everything these days.  PC developers know how to do this a hell of a lot better than console developers for the most part (as we mentioned already... bad console ports abound), so all that says is that we've either got consistency in the development process or we don't.  Platform doesn't have much to do with it.  It's all about whoever is developing it and what their strengths are.

Bingo.

Anyway, even if everything you said is true, it still doesn't spell any kind of doom for PC gaming.  As mentioned, it *is* a niche, hardcore market *in certain sub-sectors of the market whole*.  Those sub-sectors still make money.  Games are still made, people are still buying.  Maybe they don't make as much, and maybe the PC developers are trying to tap into the higher-grossing console market in order to pull in extra bucks, but the whole debate that started this was: are PC or console versions of games the "best" version?  As far as I can tell, all we've done thus far is thoroughly demonstrate that yes, 90% of the time, if a game isn't a console game ported over to the PC (i.e. if it was a PC game that went to consoles or if it was a game simultaneously developed for both PCs and consoles), the PC version is going to be superior *most* of the time for obvious reasons.

When a PC game gets ported to a console, the console version might be possibly cut-down, in some regard -- graphical quality, framerate, etc etc. Depends on the console's hardware.

When a console game gets ported to the PC, usually if the PC version isn't done justice, it ain't due to power concerns....

Lastly, in regards to Jedi vs. D there, D is completely right.  The consoles are *never* ahead in reality, only in terms of market saturation.  The PC technology is always advancing, always ahead.  The only real difference is that it usually isn't cost-feasible for the latest and greatest stuff when new consoles are released, so you don't see it really get into the market for a little while after that.  You have to remember also that most console manufacturers are taking huge losses on their hardware to even *get* the stuff out to the public at all!

Exactly -- look at Microsoft, charging $60 per game just to make up for the fact that they were under-selling their X360 system, upon release!

If I recall, the vid card during its release was worth the price of the console alone!

[K-man]

MysterD I fail to see where I ever asserted that consoles were more powerful than cutting edge PC hardware.

I wholeheartedly agree that even the current gen consoles cannot compete with current PC hardware.  If you read closely, you'll notice that I gave DX10 props and asserted that it would effectively raise the bar for PC gaming.  Now I did state in the other thread that simultaneous releases are generally going to be better on the console NOW.  I firmly believe that, and its not because the PC isn't powerful enough to handle it.  It's just the sheer fact that developers are concentrating their efforts on console titles and not PC titles.  Thus the console titles are coming out just a tad more polished.  I think the point you're trying to refute is entirely different than the point I was making.

What you're failing to take into consideration too is the fact that the hardware on a console does one thing: runs a game. Maybe a small UI.  PC hardware has to contend with much more than just running a specific task.  Ever opened up your task manager?  See all those processes running?  Your hardware is being divided up to perform that workload.  Therefore if we were theoretically comparing similar specs on a console and PC, the console would always outperform because its capabilities aren't being diluted across multiple processes.  Even running barebones you're still running an OS that requires tons of resources, drivers, etc. 

"Let's look at the XB Live. Downloading new content and patches to games? That began as a PC-thing, pretty much."

Sure, I agree.  But why would you knock a console feature because it originated in the PC arena?  By that logic you'd have to harp on Sony for doing their analog joysticks and rumble after Nintendo did it with the 64.  That's nothing more than taking a good feature and integrating it, which there's absolutely nothing wrong with.

Anyhow, thats beside the point

Again I'd like to reiterate my point that I do not believe PC gaming will ever cease to exist.  I'm merely stating that consoles have taken a huge bite out of the PC game pie and will continue to do so.

And Que, I haven't the time nor energy to form an appropriate response tonight, but we will definitely continue this later.

[Jedi]

Man I'm so stepping out right now. Q your're spot on man (as always).
I'll continue to read because this is interesting stuff and I think D will apply his usual entrenched logic which may very well render this thread to a act of hitting your head against a wall. 

[idolminds]

Consoles being the bigger market isn't really anything new. PC gaming as a barrier of entry: you need to know how to work a PC. Consoles are easy, you plug in a couple wires and you're set to go.

PC gaming was bigger in ages past because gaming wasnt cool. Only nerds played games, and nerds knew PCs. Then all of a sudden gaming got cool, and more people wanted to play. Well the easiest way in is with consoles.

Marketing probably takes its toll in here somewhere. Consoles are so "owned" by one corporation that they can market it. Ads for not just individual games, but for the entire platform. PCs don't have the "luxury" of being owned by any one company (though the whole GFW thing I guess MS is trying to take that spot). That makes it hard to get your PC game out there in front of the general population. If people haven't heard of it, they wont buy it.

There was another point I was going to make but its late and I forgot it.

[scottws]

What you're failing to take into consideration too is the fact that the hardware on a console does one thing: runs a game. Maybe a small UI.  PC hardware has to contend with much more than just running a specific task.  Ever opened up your task manager?  See all those processes running?  Your hardware is being divided up to perform that workload.  Therefore if we were theoretically comparing similar specs on a console and PC, the console would always outperform because its capabilities aren't being diluted across multiple processes.  Even running barebones you're still running an OS that requires tons of resources, drivers, etc. 

Point noted, but high-end PCs usually have an over-abundance of power to make up for this shortcoming.  I have a 2.13 Ghz quad-core processor and 4 GB of RAM.  I think my machine can handle the extra resources.

Besides, consoles run operating systems too, and have drivers that run the various peripherals and internal components.  I'm sure the OS has a much smaller resource footprint that say Windows XP or especially Windows Vista, but you act as if consoles don't run any sort of OS that takes up some of the resources that then won't be available to run the games.  They do.

[MysterD]

Marketing probably takes its toll in here somewhere. Consoles are so "owned" by one corporation that they can market it. Ads for not just individual games, but for the entire platform. PCs don't have the "luxury" of being owned by any one company (though the whole GFW thing I guess MS is trying to take that spot). That makes it hard to get your PC game out there in front of the general population. If people haven't heard of it, they wont buy it.

Actually, I think the PC marketing campaign is a different breed. They really don't need to use the TV to push a game. 99& of games I see shown on TV w/ an ad placement are CONSOLE games, not PC Games.

See, I think many PC gamers see the Internet as the advertisement. The PC does your gaming and Internet -- so, likely, they'll hear about an upcoming game on the Net. Most of us PC gamers know about new games b/c we follow game sites like IGN, GameSpot, and Gamerankings -- so, we know when a game is coming out, we've read up on games, etc etc. THOSE are our previews and ads, pretty much.

So, you really don't need to use the TV for marketing your game -- you always got the Internet.

If you see gaming message boards all over the Net, people are talking games -- whether it's IGN, GameFaqs, Overwritten, G-Spot's, or whatever. We're doing a lot of the pumping-up and hyping for these companies sometimes, even! Hehe! That itself is an advertisement.

Many games have their own websites, too. So, there ya' go -- more marketing on the Net, right there. Good way to hype a game, if you've got a PC game coming.

About GFW -- yeah, there ya go. That mag especially, since it's named "Games For Windows" -- or any PC gaming mag, like PC Gamer Mag -- is a pretty good way to put your ad in there, too, if you got a new game coming and all, as well.

[MysterD]

"Let's look at the XB Live. Downloading new content and patches to games? That began as a PC-thing, pretty much."

Sure, I agree.  But why would you knock a console feature because it originated in the PC arena?  By that logic you'd have to harp on Sony for doing their analog joysticks and rumble after Nintendo did it with the 64.  That's nothing more than taking a good feature and integrating it, which there's absolutely nothing wrong with.

Read my writing in my paragraph a little more carefully; I'm not knocking it. I'm just stating they took some cues from us. No big deal. Fine by me. See, you were saying that PC gaming is becoming more and more "insignificant", so I told you it's not. I feel that I proved it's "significant" that by asserting my point was that consoles are becoming more like PC's than ever before. If PC gaming was "insignificant," consoles wouldn't be taking cues from PC gaming.

And, yes, the vice versa is true. More so than ever before, console games are getting ported to the PC. And, the X360 controller even plugs into your PC's USB port -- so, they are making their mark by bringing their exact gamepads -- and that gameplay style of gameplay easily over to the PC.

Both PC gaming and console gaming are influencing each other. They really do need each other -- both PC gaming can learn from console gaming in many regards; and yes, the vice versa is true that console gaming can learn from PC gaming. Both are going nowhere any time soon, since they both have their loyal devoted fans.

Again I'd like to reiterate my point that I do not believe PC gaming will ever cease to exist.  I'm merely stating that consoles have taken a huge bite out of the PC game pie and will continue to do so.

Console gaming have always made more money than PC gaming. Why? It's a bigger market -- PC gaming is not meant for little kids, really. Consoles are "pick-up-n-play," while PC's really aren't; PC's might be getting closer to that than ever before, but they're still not at that point. PC game developers themselves never really aimed for the kids market in their games, whereas console gaming does. Plus, console gaming has the adult crowd nowadays, too.


Though, if Microsoft keeps up w/ more of these "tray-n-play" features for auto-installing PC games on Windows like Halo 2 PC that are commonly found on the console, that might take a few kicks into console gaming's head...

Though, I'd like to add that piracy's a nasty side of PC gaming, over the years. This has caused a lot of $$$ to be lost in the PC gaming market. I remember back when I was in college, I knew kids that would go out and spend $500 on a top-of-the-line video card, but wouldn't spend one single dime on a PC game -- they'd just pirate the game, ASAP. Piracy's probably only going to get worse -- especially w/ some companies pushing shoddy copyright protections such as StarForce; who wants a game that's is equipped w/ software that can be quite malicious to your PC?

Oh, there's other stupidities, too -- companies pushing "solo-player games" w/ "requiring an Internet connection to play" like say Lost Planet PC. Or games like Bioshock PC and products that you buy in store that require STEAM, which will need "Internet activation before you can play the game SP portion of the game offline."

MysterD I fail to see where I ever asserted that consoles were more powerful than cutting edge PC hardware.

That wasn't you.

Jedi somewhere said, at one point, that PC gaming plays "catch-up" w/ the consoles -- I was responding to that...
...as well as responding to you on other things you mentioned, in the same post.

[idolminds]

Console games use the web for advertising as well. But whats more likely to happen? Joe Schmoe is on the internet and just randomly comes across "Game X" and becomes interested? Or Joe Schome just so happens to see the TV comercial for "Game X" while watching football and becomes interested?

We are gamers. We are different. We seek out new games, we look around the internet for new games. Your average person doesn't. They don't follow a games development for months or years waiting for them to come out. They see a new game on TV and are like "Oh neat, I'll go get that." PC games not having TV commercials is a bad thing for sales.

[MysterD]

Console games use the web for advertising as well. But whats more likely to happen? Joe Schmoe is on the internet and just randomly comes across "Game X" and becomes interested? Or Joe Schome just so happens to see the TV comercial for "Game X" while watching football and becomes interested?

For Average Joe, the TV's where they'd look for coming across "Game X".

What I'm saying for PC gaming, it's different -- they use the Net to its advantage. So, they feel they really probably do not need to put an ad on the TV, to get people interested into a PC game. It's already been advertised on the Net -- thanks to Gaming Web Sites (IGN, GameSpot, etc etc), Online Game Stores, PC Gaming Mags, and PC Gaming Message Boards.

Yeah, though like you said, console gamers who are heavily into console games also use the Net to find out about console games, as well. Yes, that's definitely true.

We are gamers. We are different. We seek out new games, we look around the internet for new games. Your average person doesn't. They don't follow a games development for months or years waiting for them to come out. They see a new game on TV and are like "Oh neat, I'll go get that." PC games not having TV commercials is a bad thing for sales.

I'm trying to think of the last PC-exclusive game to have a commercial -- the last PC UT game, maybe?

It was cool to see a PC game ad on TV, though.

[K-man]

Actually, I think the PC marketing campaign is a different breed. They really don't need to use the TV to push a game. 99& of games I see shown on TV w/ an ad placement are CONSOLE games, not PC Games.

See, I think many PC gamers see the Internet as the advertisement. The PC does your gaming and Internet -- so, likely, they'll hear about an upcoming game on the Net. Most of us PC gamers know about new games b/c we follow game sites like IGN, GameSpot, and Gamerankings -- so, we know when a game is coming out, we've read up on games, etc etc. THOSE are our previews and ads, pretty much.

So, you really don't need to use the TV for marketing your game -- you always got the Internet.

If you see gaming message boards all over the Net, people are talking games -- whether it's IGN, GameFaqs, Overwritten, G-Spot's, or whatever. We're doing a lot of the pumping-up and hyping for these companies sometimes, even! Hehe! That itself is an advertisement.

Many games have their own websites, too. So, there ya' go -- more marketing on the Net, right there. Good way to hype a game, if you've got a PC game coming.

About GFW -- yeah, there ya go. That mag especially, since it's named "Games For Windows" -- or any PC gaming mag, like PC Gamer Mag -- is a pretty good way to put your ad in there, too, if you got a new game coming and all, as well.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.  Console developers use those exact same avenues of advertisement.  And I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't get my game information from TV advertisements.  I get them from the exact same places you mentioned - the Internet especially. Game commercials are nowhere near as plentiful as they once were, regardless of platform.  Your statement that TV wasn't needed because we have the Internet is spot on.  And that applies to PC and console gamers alike.  There's no reason to think that PC gamers use the Internet to check up on games more than console gamers.  Sure you may see more console game commercials than PC, but I think that's more a money thing than anything else.  You'll still see the big hitters in PC gaming advertised on television.  Doom 3, Age of Empires 3, Flight Simulator, World of Warcraft, Vanguard, Quake 4, STALKER, Company of Heroes, The Call of Duty series, The Sims...  I could go on and on about PC titles that have garnered significant TV advertisement.

In short, whoever has the spare cash will advertise.  You'll see commercials for all heavy-hitters regardless of platform.  You won't see a commercial for a game like Okami or Katamari Damacy (which by the way garnered popularity through the Internet and word of mouth).

[K-man]

Not to mention that a lot of the console games that are advertised on TV are either Cross-platform (and thus PC titles too), or a dumb game tied to a movie (advertising costs are probably shared by the movie studio/developer)

[MysterD]

Not to mention that a lot of the console games that are advertised on TV are either Cross-platform (and thus PC titles too), or a dumb game tied to a movie (advertising costs are probably shared by the movie studio/developer)

It's common for games that are on BOTH PC and consoles, getting a simultaneous multi-platform release, will wind up on TV. Oblivion, for example, comes to mind.

Though, not many PC-exclusive (PC-only) games have ads on TV -- especially when compared to the amount of console games advertised on TV.

[Quemaqua]

I'd also just like to note that piracy is rampant on consoles these days as well.  Not as much as the PC by any stretch of the imagination, but console mods have allowed all kinds of shit to take place.  I mean, if you go check out torrent sites you can find practically anything you could ever want.  If you have a modded system, that means you can steal a whole lotta' games.  I don't know tons of people that do this, but the ones that do tend to do it obsessively.  Most of the people I know who download PC games and such just do it to check things out or when they just can't spare the cash, but they buy 80 to 90 percent of their games.  The guys I know who mod their consoles for piracy purposes buy basically nothing, just burning and playing pirated games instead.  Just an interesting point, it doesn't have any great bearing on the topic or anything.

[K-man]

It's common for games that are on BOTH PC and consoles, getting a simultaneous multi-platform release, will wind up on TV. Oblivion, for example, comes to mind.

Though, not many PC-exclusive (PC-only) games have ads on TV -- especially when compared to the amount of console games advertised on TV.

did you read any of my post above the one you quoted?

[MysterD]

I don't recall STALKER or COH having a TV ad....
How did I miss that?

[K-man]

http://gameads.gamepressure.com/tv_game_commercial.asp?ID=5368

http://gameads.gamepressure.com/tv_game_commercial.asp?ID=4429

[K-man]

I'd also just like to note that piracy is rampant on consoles these days as well.  Not as much as the PC by any stretch of the imagination, but console mods have allowed all kinds of shit to take place.  I mean, if you go check out torrent sites you can find practically anything you could ever want.  If you have a modded system, that means you can steal a whole lotta' games.  I don't know tons of people that do this, but the ones that do tend to do it obsessively.  Most of the people I know who download PC games and such just do it to check things out or when they just can't spare the cash, but they buy 80 to 90 percent of their games.  The guys I know who mod their consoles for piracy purposes buy basically nothing, just burning and playing pirated games instead.  Just an interesting point, it doesn't have any great bearing on the topic or anything.

Much more of a problem overseas though.  A good friend of mine just got back from South Korea where he was able to purchase a modded Wii from a an actual legit store.  They have 360's like that too that just come preloaded with a hard drive full of games.  It's insane how nonchalant they are about piracy over there. 

Of course you don't have to look far back and find a console that was killed by piracy.  Poor Dreamcast.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, it's really sad.  Pug could tell you all about that too.  Where he lives he says games and movies are just so expensive nobody can buy them legitimately even if they want to.

[PyroMenace]

Im probably gonna end up reiterating points but I'll give my two cents.

I don't know, I think its hard to really say that PC gaming is thriving these days. Maybe its not so much that its dying, and judging by the numbers which is arguable, I do believe PC gaming has been in the decline for sometime, its slow, but its there. Plus I think the fact that the console market just keeps dwarfing the PC every year. Its not so much that the PC is failing, I think its just not seeing as many newcomers compared to the number of new people that consoles bring in. You can even see it significantly with marketing. Walk into most video game stores, or any store that holds games you'll always find a massive selection of console games where versus a small shelving spot for PC games, and it used to be completely different, anybody remember Babbages? They held a massive area for PC games. Plus I think consoles played a much bigger role in making games mainstream than the PC did.

Take a look at the genres, there's fewer now. The PC has consolidated its genres to practically 3 that have kept it afloat, FPS, RTS, and RPG (including MMOs). No longer do we see anymore point and click adventures or flight sims. Consoles lived on platformers, sporting games, and their own types of RPGs, and various fighter games. Now consoles generate a plethora of genres, all listed above including the PC ones plus platformers are still alive, plus you got party games, and sporting games still utterly dominate on consoles, including racing. There's just more varied types of gameplay found in console gaming, so the appeal is easy to see. And more and more you hear less PC exclusive titles, its usually just cross platform. Now I would guess you could probably find that the total number of dev teams for consoles far outweigh those of the PC, but I couldnt find that information, so I'll just leave it at that, a guess.

Overall, I think the crowds dedicated to that to consoles will keep dwarfing PC gaming inevitably, but its a long shot to say PC will die, there will always be the niche followings that keep it alive. But I dont think it'll ever compare to what it once was.

[MysterD]

Im probably gonna end up reiterating points but I'll give my two cents.

I don't know, I think its hard to really say that PC gaming is thriving these days. Maybe its not so much that its dying, and judging by the numbers which is arguable, I do believe PC gaming has been in the decline for sometime, its slow, but its there. Plus I think the fact that the console market just keeps dwarfing the PC every year. Its not so much that the PC is failing, I think its just not seeing as many newcomers compared to the number of new people that consoles bring in.

You can even see it significantly with marketing. Walk into most video game stores, or any store that holds games you'll always find a massive selection of console games where versus a small shelving spot for PC games, and it used to be completely different, anybody remember Babbages? They held a massive area for PC games. Plus I think consoles played a much bigger role in making games mainstream than the PC did.

Yes, before GameStop took in Babbage's!!!

Babbage's had a huge PC gaming section -- that comprised of most of the store, back in its hey-day!
they had more PC games than they did console games, back then.

Anytime I walk into say a Circuit City or a Best Buy, they've got a few long rows of PC gaming shelves. So, that makes me happy.

Take a look at the genres, there's fewer now. The PC has consolidated its genres to practically 3 that have kept it afloat, FPS, RTS, and RPG (including MMOs). No longer do we see anymore point and click adventures or flight sims.

I beg to differ on point and click adventures on the PC. Yes, they're still being made -- namely by foreign European companies and Independent companies. I'm thinking of games such as Indigo Prophecy, Runaway series, Broken Sword series, TLJ series.  It's just, the genre really ain't being paid much attention by the American market -- namely, b/c they genre hasn't advanced too much in the last few years, especially when compared to other genres.

Plus, most of them are not that great, these days -- the biggest problem. That genre hasn't really been pushed ahead in the last few years, which has really hurt the genre -- namely, w/ the lack of adventure genre going full 3D AND most adventure games are NOT too replayable. Very few adventure games, such as Dreamfall (by going full 3D), Shadow of Destiny (7 different endings and numerous ways to finish many puzzles), and Post Mortem (multiple endings and multiple puzzle finishes) have pushed the genre forward, in the last 5 years or so.

AdventureGamers.com follows the genre and those games pretty well. If you want to keep up w/ that genre, look there -- and their forums.

Consoles lived on platformers, sporting games, and their own types of RPGs, and various fighter games. Now consoles generate a plethora of genres, all listed above including the PC ones plus platformers are still alive, plus you got party games, and sporting games still utterly dominate on consoles, including racing. There's just more varied types of gameplay found in console gaming, so the appeal is easy to see. And more and more you hear less PC exclusive titles, its usually just cross platform. Now I would guess you could probably find that the total number of dev teams for consoles far outweigh those of the PC, but I couldnt find that information, so I'll just leave it at that, a guess.

One of the most interesting news is that DOA will be coming to PC, as an Online game -- DOA: Online. It'll be interesting to see how that shapes up.

Hopefully, we might see more brawlers on the PC. I say "Sure, why not?" -- I have a control pad. Gimmie some brawlers on the PC; I'd love to play some good brawlers w/ the PC Multi-player aspect -- PC games are known for their include online MP aspect. Yeah, that'd probably be kick-ass -- a brawler to play MP with online against other players.

Overall, I think the crowds dedicated to that to consoles will keep dwarfing PC gaming inevitably, but its a long shot to say PC will die, there will always be the niche followings that keep it alive. But I dont think it'll ever compare to what it once was.

I think the PC will stay a niche following -- and very strong cult-like one, like it has been, for years. I don't see it going anywhere, anytime soon. Especially w/ the success of MMO's, such as like Guild Wars and WoW.

With often console games being later ported to the PC more so than ever -- such as Halo series, Jade Empire, Fable: TLC , Res Evil, GoW, the entire SH series, etc etc -- I just see PC gamers making sure they eat those up; as long as they have a gamepad, in-case the KB/mouse controls suck.

[scottws]

Walk into most video game stores, or any store that holds games you'll always find a massive selection of console games where versus a small shelving spot for PC games, and it used to be completely different, anybody remember Babbages?

I disagree with that.  The Best Buy stores I've been into in the area have two rows that are for all of the consoles, and they have about two rows of PC games too, plus a display near the entrance of the game/CD/DVD section that displays PC games and not console games.

[MysterD]

I disagree with that.  The Best Buy stores I've been into in the area have two rows that are for all of the consoles, and they have about two rows of PC games too, plus a display near the entrance of the game/CD/DVD section that displays PC games and not console games.

My BB and CC stores that I have nearby are a lot like that.

[idolminds]

And part of that again is because there are 3 main consoles, the 3 old consoles, and the two handhelds. Of course the "console shelf space" will be bigger, theres so friggin' many of them. Even when the older gen fades away they'll still have a lot of used games and such in EB/GS. The PC is a singular platform. If you compare the PC shelf space to an individual consoles shelf space you'll see they aren't that different. Except at Best Buy, because the PC section there is larger than any of the console spaces, at least at all the ones I've been in.

[MysterD]

The PC is a singular platform. If you compare the PC shelf space to an individual consoles shelf space you'll see they aren't that different. Except at Best Buy, because the PC section there is larger than any of the console spaces, at least at all the ones I've been in.

Yeah, I've never seen a small PC games section at any BB or CC I've been to.

Those two stores pretty much got the best prices in retail chain stores for PC games, anyways. I think those stores helped kill some of EB/GS's PC section, since EB/GS really don't have as good of PC deals as often as say BB and CC does.

[idolminds]

EB/GS doen't give a shit about PC because you cant resell them thanks to CD keys and online auth. They make a killing selling all the used console games, so they get the most shelf space.

[MysterD]

EB/GS doen't give a shit about PC because you cant resell them thanks to CD keys and online auth.

This is also true, yes.

They make a killing selling all the used console games, so they get the most shelf space.

That's for sure, as well.

They've become the new FuncoLand, basically...

[Quemaqua]

They didn't become the new Funcoland.  They *bought* Funcoland.

[K-man]

I thought of this thread the other day as I was making preliminary plans to drop a G into a new gaming rig.

I can definitely admit I was off base.  But you can thank Steam and indies for the resurgence of the PC as a platform.  Oh, and sites like Twitch.  Sort of happy to say that I was wrong, though, considering the road console gaming seems to be headed down.

[Pugnate]

I was scanning the thread for an embarrassing response in favor of PC gaming from me, but thankfully there was none!

Anyway, wow, 2007! THIS WAS 7 YEARS AGO! OMG! We've all been together a good long time. I feel old now.

[Quemaqua]

I know, I saw the date and was like ... shit. And that wasn't even when the boards were brand-new, I don't think.

I sounded like a raging asshole, so I guess some things never change. It's funny to remember back and realize I actually did care that much about this stuff.

[Pugnate]

hahaha I know what you mean.. to think I cared so much about this stuff. I still do, but meh, not so much.