Topic: Would you die for your country?

[Ghandi]

I don't think that I would ever die for mine. I would die for a cause, but not my country. I look at the Americans dying in Iraq, though, and they are clearly dying for their country. They have no illusion that the propaganda we here over is actually truthful. They see more clearly than us. What cause are they fighting for? Not some illusion of freedom. Perhaps their comrades, their fellow soldiers. But not for their country.

Anyways, would you die for your country?

[gpw11]

No, but I'd make that other son-of-a-bitch die for his

[Quemaqua]

I might have in better times, but certainly not now.  Though I'd argue against your over-generalization of the soldier's mindset.  Believe me, there are plenty still who feel they're doing the right thing and all.  Certainly it isn't a popular war anymore on any front, but I've known enough soldiers and friends of soldiers to know that there are some still operating under the pretense of ideology.

[Pugnate]

What is up with your questions...

I wouldn't die for anyone other than my immediate family. My country can go fuck itself.

[scottws]

I would die for my country if I was defending it or was attacking another force under a just pretense.  If I was in Iraq, I'd die for my comrades.

[Cobra951]

What is up with your questions...

I wouldn't die for anyone other than my immediate family. My country can go fuck itself.

According to Flags of Our Fathers, soldiers die for their comrades in arms.  There may be more to it, but in the heat of the moment, that's what apparently drives them.

Would I?  Not intentionally.  I would risk my life for my family, though.  I have no doubt about that.

[Ghandi]

What is up with your questions...

Curiosity. Also, I think that it's good to think about these things. Whats up with your questions....

Que, you bring up a good point. I was over-generalizing, for sure. But I do think that everything is not as the media portrays it, nor as the government would like us to believe.

But I have another question. Clearly the American president is a fucking idiot and we went in the wrong direction. But, if you are an American, would you have died for your country directly after 9/11?

[scottws]

I almost jumped to "Yes!"  But if that were true, why didn't I join the military after 9/11?

[Quemaqua]

You may say it's arguing semantics, but nobody dies for their country intentionally unless they're crazy suicide bombers, and we don't really have those (at least not as part of our military).  The question should really be "Would you risk your life for your country?"  This may not change people's actual answer, but it may change how they think about it.  Nobody wants to die, but nobody in the military is asking you to die.  They're asking you to put yourself at risk for the benefit of others.

[Ghandi]

You may say it's arguing semantics

I do. If you put your life on the line you accept the fact that you may die for your country.

Also, I disregard your notion that no one dies for their country unless they are crazy suicide bombers. I mean, the entire Revolutionary War consisted of people putting their lives on the line for their country. Maybe things are different now, but many people have put their lives on the line for their country.

[Quemaqua]

Yes, but not with the absolute expectation of death.

[Antares]

I generally enjoy being alive.  I wouldn't intentionally die for much of anything except possibly to save a loved one.  I'd have no problem risking my life for my country though.

There are tons of Iraq war vets here, to expand on what Que said, they are under no illusions about the war, or what they are doing over there, but their opinions on the war are as varied as any other group of people.

[Ghandi]

Absolutely - the people that fight over there are not disillusioned. They see what is going on every day. We are the people that are disillusioned. The thing that really bothers me is that they are not dying for our country, despite what I said in my original post. I was wrong. They are dying for their (the Iraqis) country. And, at least from the news that I get over here, they don't seem to appreciate it.

[Xessive]

If I had a country worth dying for then maybe.. At moment I am country-less.

Just like Pug, I'd protect my home and die for my family.

[Ghandi]

I have always wanted to be a soldier. I haven't told many people this, but I will be a soldier once I graduate. I will join the Marines, or the Army. I am a good journalist, and could no doubt be a great one eventually. But my heart is not in it. I will get a degree, and enter the armed forces as an officer.

Perhaps this was my motivation when writing this thread, and perhaps not. I was not thinking of any personal aspirations when developing the thread, although they are apparent now. Whether they were unconscious is another topic for debate.

I am a soldier at heart, though. I should hope that I will never kill someone, and I do. I will not, God willing.

[Ghandi]

Man, I was drunk when I wrote that.

How easily the internet can come back to haunt us.

[Cobra951]

This is the serious board, so, seriously: where are you at?  Are you going to be GI Ghandi?

[Pugnate]

If you do become a soldier, change your legal name to Sgt. Slaughter.

[scottws]

Haha he'd go in as 2nd Lt. Sergeant Slaughter.

Anyway Ghandi, that's cool.  My cousin just joined the Army a few weeks ago.  He's loving it... not.  But I have great respect for anyone in the military.

I considered joining the Navy for awhile, but I too would want to be an officer and I don't have my degree yet (still).  Now, I'm kind of settled, so joining the military is out.

[Pugnate]

Those were better times... when a kids cartoon character was very violent and had a name like Slaughter.

[Ghandi]

This is the serious board, so, seriously: where are you at?  Are you going to be GI Ghandi?

I'm at the "one semester until I graduate and no clear reason why I am even in the field that I am other than to graduate with a degree" phase. So, basically, I don't have a damn clue what I am going to do. The military is an option.

[Xessive]

Cool, you'll figure it out soon enough I hope it all works out for the best man.

I've always wanted to be either a soldier, cop, or firefighter.. Oddly enough I wound up in art. Soldiering just made sense due to my family's military history. Though my dad was against me joining any armies at all. Now that I understand politics a little more I see his point.

[Ghandi]

The funny thing is, I have no real devotion to my country. Don't get me wrong - I do have an obligation - I realize that part of the reason that I am kept safe is because of the defense of the country. But at the same time, I have always found nationalism to be absurd. There is no need for it. It creates conflict.

[Xessive]

The funny thing is, I have no real devotion to my country. Don't get me wrong - I do have an obligation - I realize that part of the reason that I am kept safe is because of the defense of the country. But at the same time, I have always found nationalism to be absurd. There is no need for it. It creates conflict.

I agree, nationalism often creates conflict and can be demeaning. Patriotism, however, is a more constructive way. The difference is best described as Charles De Gaulle said it "Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first."

[Cobra951]

And once again, I disagree with you, Ghandi.  Nationalism means that the human race has so far been able to integrate from families and tribes in prehistory to very large national units.  A unified world is still in the future.  Nations are not a division of mankind.  They are the best unification of mankind that we have been able to achieve so far.

Xessive, I'm not referring to that negative definition of the word "nationalism".  Maybe I shouldn't use it at all to avoid arguments over semantics.  My point is that nations are the best we can do at the moment.  We can't abolish them in our lifetimes in a positive way.

[Quemaqua]

I agree completely with Cobra's statement.

[Ghandi]

Nations are not a division of mankind.  They are the best unification of mankind that we have been able to achieve so far.

Mankind is hardly unified. Perhaps it is the best option right now, but nationalism does anything but unite us, except in our respective borders. We seek the best outcomes for our respective nations, not mankind as a whole. There are exceptions, of course, but generally this holds true.

[Quemaqua]

You will never unite mankind as a whole.  People hate each other for their differences, and this will never, ever stop, not in a billion years.  There are a few people who *think* they would like a giant freakish melting pot of cultures, but I think America has already proven this to ultimately be a colossal failure.  Sure, we have a bunch of people living together, but America is far, far from unification of any sort.  All it is is a bunch of separate cultures keeping to themselves as much as possible and working the political system to try and help their own interests, completely ignoring the interests of everyone else.  It's pointless, stupid, and will more than likely lead to the fall of the American empire before much longer.

I'm not saying it's impossible for people to get along.  What I'm saying is you can never get groups of people in the numbers that "nation" implies to rally around the same causes, and there will always and forever be division because of that.  Even if you get smaller groups together in harmony (except that as noted, there's nothing resembling harmony even between such small groups as it stands today), attempting to unite the world is a pipe dream of the most epic proportions.

[Antares]

Mankind is hardly unified. Perhaps it is the best option right now, but nationalism does anything but unite us, except in our respective borders. We seek the best outcomes for our respective nations, not mankind as a whole. There are exceptions, of course, but generally this holds true.

You could make a case that over time the trend for mankind has been in that direction.  We've gone from tribes, to cities, to Nations, and now one could easily argue with more organizations like the European Union we're headed for even more universal government.  Personally I don't know how much I like that Idea aside from the obvious economic advantates, but it's certainly is the trend.

[Xessive]

The world is just a big "Red vs Blue" where people react with "It's not one of us! Kill it! Or at least make it really uncomfortable!" I think people need that sense of "difference" in order to identify themselves.

I'm beginning to believe that the only way for Earth to be unified is if other planets are inhabited, then we'll have interplanetary war but each planet will probably be at peace with itself.

[Pugnate]

I'm beginning to believe that the only way for Earth to be unified is if other planets are inhabited, then we'll have interplanetary war but each planet will probably be at peace with itself.

hahaha...

I think one of the biggest problems on this planet is a lack of tolerance, and the need to see others follow your own ways.

[Ghandi]

The only way to unite the world is through pure fear. A totalitarian hold is a must for anyone seeking to do so. Unite the masses around one central cause: fear of the all-powerful ruler. This is the only way.

[Pugnate]

That's what Xessive was saying. Fear of aliens.

[Xessive]

Essentially people fear what they don't understand and they hate what they fear.

It doesn't have to be aliens. If some people migrate to Mars we'll end up with an Earth vs Mars conflict, and inevitably the world will become a Japanime cliché.