Topic: Building a new system

[idolminds]

Original list
List 2

List 2 is just from some suggestions by IGN users. I think the case is nice (and cheap!). Don't know if I'll actually go with the quad core and 4GB or RAM. But that plus case, plus the X-fi soundcard and its not that much more expensive that I thought it would be.

Still need a mouse, possibly a USB keyboard (though I can still get by with my current PS/2 KB). Thinking a Razer Copperhead mouse (to replace my aging Boomslang). Or the Krait, which has 3 buttons instead of 7, but to be honest I've never really used the side buttons on the mouse I have. Save some cash that way.

I wonder if I can sneak by with a 500w PSU (thats like $50 cheaper than the 600w)

So yeah, thats it so far. Any suggestions from you guys would be great. I plan on reusing my copy of XP, the DVD burner, and my monitor from my current system. Also, I'll pick out a modem. Probably the cheapy $7 ones...heh.

[Cobra951]

Get perpendicular!  Oh, I'm so glad they explained it so as I could understand it.  I'm edumacated now.

[Pugnate]

Holy shit, a great system for that money. The video card is $280 because it just came out, and newegg have been using advantage of their rep for years with higher markups. The MSRP should be closer to $250.

BTW, Crytek have stated that quad core chips may be more important to the game than Video power! Let's see. I'd not get the budget quadcore yet because it just isn't fast enough.

[scottws]

Don't waste your money on a sound card.

[scottws]

BTW, Crytek have stated that quad core chips may be more important to the game than Video power! Let's see. I'd not get the budget quadcore yet because it just isn't fast enough.

They said that, but if you check out the link I posted in the Crysis demo thread that the video card is clearly the limiting factor in the game.

[idolminds]

Well, I might got with an Audigy instead of the X-fi...or in fact stick with the on-board. We'll see. Does onboard do the nifty EAX stuff?

Guy on IGN said I should be ok with going with a 500w PSU, so that'll save me a little money. I might go back to the dual core and 2GB of RAM. If I need more later I can always upgrade. The quad will be cheaper by then and another 2GB or RAM wont be a big deal. Also XP has some limit to the amount of RAM it can utilize anyway. 3GB? Hmmm...

[scottws]

Well, I might got with an Audigy instead of the X-fi...or in fact stick with the on-board. We'll see. Does onboard do the nifty EAX stuff?

I use onboard SoundMAX w/ my system and the only difference I notice is a little snap, crackle, and pop when there is no sound.  As far as EAX, I don't think so, but I have never noticed the difference between using EAX and not using EAX, honestly.  I can't speak for everyone, but I am never buying another sound card again after giving onboard a chance.

Guy on IGN said I should be ok with going with a 500w PSU, so that'll save me a little money. I might go back to the dual core and 2GB of RAM. If I need more later I can always upgrade. The quad will be cheaper by then and another 2GB or RAM wont be a big deal. Also XP has some limit to the amount of RAM it can utilize anyway. 3GB? Hmmm...

Yeah 500W PSU should be fine.  Dual core will probably be fine.  The biggest gains are in things like multithreaded compression, although there is a trend for games to start doing things for 4 cores.  Crytek obviously says 4 cores is good, and Splash Damage/id just put in a threaded renderer in ET:QW's newest patch, designed for systems with 4 cores.

As far as the RAM issue, it isn't really an XP thing.  It's a 32-bit thing.  32-bit systems can only address 4GB of memory.  The thing is, all devices are allocated portions of memory so yes, the real limit of RAM that a 32-bit system will see is around 3GB.

This is the exact reason I went 64-bit.

[Cobra951]

Another chipset feature is the Intel High Definition Audio (Intel HD Audio). This technology features eight independent DMA audio engines that support multiple audio streams with audio codecs. This integrated audio solution should rival the performance of high-end sound cards. The onboard 8-channel HD audio (High Definition Audio, previously codenamed Azalia) codec enables high-quality 192KHz/24-bit audio output.

Other audio features include jack-sensing, re-tasking functions and multi-streaming technology that simultaneously sends different audio streams to different destinations. The Dolby Digital Live technology from Dolby Lab encodes the multi-channel audio source into AC-3 bit-stream and outputs it to S/PDIF port in real time. The Realtek ALC889A audio controller is a unique addition to the P35-DS4 and should work very well.

Damn.  I'm thinking Scott is right.  That's from this article.  Although the mobo is the next model up, the audio chipset is the same.  I'm not used to so much power in integrated audio.

[Pugnate]

Don't waste your money on a sound card.

I found onboard sound to not be good enough compared to a soundblaster, especially an X-Fi. EAX is especially quite cool. At least that's what I think, and everyone has a different opinion. But I had to remove my sound card for a few days and noticed a huge difference, when I put it back in.

My sister recently got my bro's old card and I again noticed a significant difference.

I guess the best thing is to experienc both and see if you think the difference is worth the money. Also I wouldn't go for an Audigy because Creative seems to forget products that are remotely old.

At least the X-Fi will have up to date drivers.

I might go back to the dual core and 2GB of RAM.

From what I udnerstand, there is no gaming reason to go for more RAM.

Gamespot and Tom's HW both did articles comparing video game performances with all sorts of settings on Vista and XP with identical machines using 2GB and 4GB. There was no difference in framerate in any game.

[scottws]

I don't even care about the whiz-bang features of the audio chipset.  Mine has something called SoundMAX HD but I have no idea what that means.  I mean I just use 2 channels.

It might be a different story if I had a 7.1 system and had like $2000 speakers and wanted perfect audio.  I just don't need that and the onboard sound I have is plenty good enough for my needs.

From what I udnerstand, there is no gaming reason to go for more RAM.

Gamespot and Tom's HW both did articles comparing video game performances with all sorts of settings on Vista and XP with identical machines using 2GB and 4GB. There was no difference in framerate in any game.

I think that is irrelevant.  More RAM is never a bad thing.  Sure, you're not going to notice an improvement in anything with more RAM if the 2 GB of RAM you have isn't even being fully utilized in the first place.  But what about four or five years from now?

I've had the experience that as RAM technology gets older, it becomes more scarce and also goes back up in price because of decreased demand.  When I was upgrading my old box from 768MB of RAM to 2GB of PC2700, I found it extremely difficult to find what I was looking for, and it was actually a little more expensive than when I originally bought the RAM several years prior.

You are much more apt to find better deals on the RAM you have in your system when you buy it or shortly after than you are many years later when you need it.

I disagree with you a great deal on this.  Buy as much RAM as you can afford.  Buy enough so that it seems ridiculous.  If I built a system today I would put 8 GB in it, especially if you ever plan to move to Vista ever since because of SuperFetch, it uses significantly more RAM than XP did.

[Cobra951]

Sure, get as much RAM as you can use, if it's cheap enough.  Where I disagree with you is in having to go the Vista route just so a full 4 GB can be used (particularly when that last GB will be swallowed up by Vista's ridiculous hogness anyway).  3 GB is excessive today, and will still be plenty for a few years.  Vista has to grow up first before I'd even consider it.

[scottws]

The reason Vista uses more RAM is SuperFetch.  It's basically the opposite of the swap file.  It puts frequently used data into RAM so it's much quicker to access.  It only uses the RAM though if it's plentiful.  If RAM is scarce SuperFetch de-activates.

And I didn't go Vista because of RAM, well not exactly anyway.  I went 64-bit.  Believe me, if XP 64 was worth anything, I would have gotten that.  But XP 64 is reportedly a giant pile of shit.  That is why I went to Vista.

[idolminds]

I suppose I should stick to the dual core CPU and go with the 4GB of RAM. Vista is sort of a "I'll get it when I pretty much have to" type thing for me. When theres some real compelling reason for me to upgrade (like new games drop DX9 support and are DX10 only).

Still torn on the soundcard issue. I've gotten along fine so far with onboard, but then I don't have EAX or whatever. And I dont really have a way to hear the difference it really makes. I like the idea of having sounds echo and stuff "correctly" depending on the size and shape of the room. I suppose it'll depend on the final price of the rest of the system, and I can splurge and get it.

Scott, why was 64-bit important to you? Just wondering if its something maybe I should look into.

[scottws]

Scott, why was 64-bit important to you? Just wondering if its something maybe I should look into.

Sorry, I thought I was clear.  I had 4 GB of RAM and Windows was only detecting 3 GB.  It was pissing me off.

[Pugnate]

I have 5 speakers and my soundblaster is 5.1 anyway. I actually like the center channel, and it works well, especially in RPGs when it really feels like the voice is coming from directly ahead. My Asus P5WDH offers 7.1 and some fancy crap that like yourself I didn't give much of a chance. The thing is, who is going to buy a 7 speaker set? The worst of it is the difficulty in placing the rear end speakers.

I have all 5 speakers ahead of me. I used to have the two rear speakers behind me, but the wires resulted in a lot of accidents. It is a miracle that the two speakers are still in working order.

Even now I would enjoy gaming more if I had the two rear speakers properly placed. Trouble aside from the wires is the lack of furniture. I wish I could find some proper and inexpensive stands.

I think that is irrelevant.  More RAM is never a bad thing.  Sure, you're not going to notice an improvement in anything with more RAM if the 2 GB of RAM you have isn't even being fully utilized in the first place.  But what about four or five years from now?

I don't know about now, but when I was in the market for RAM, it was $250 for two sticks. That just wasn't worth it for a situation that might happen when my system is obsolete anyway.

I disagree with you a great deal on this.  Buy as much RAM as you can afford.  Buy enough so that it seems ridiculous.  If I built a system today I would put 8 GB in it, especially if you ever plan to move to Vista ever since because of SuperFetch, it uses significantly more RAM than XP did.

hehehe.. You make it sound like it is a post apocalyptic situation and the only way to repopulate the planet is more RAM.



I can see what you are saying, but 8GB? By today's prices that's about $400 for DDR2 800, which isn't bad actually. With DDR3 around the corner though, I'd personally invest in whatever works well for now. But you are right, they do say 4GB will be the standard in a couple of years.

edit:

Scott, why was 64-bit important to you? Just wondering if its something maybe I should look into.

I am personally quite happy with dual booting. XP for everything and Vista for gaming. I've found Vista to run games significantly better, especially Bioshock. Bioshock looks slightly better on Vista as well, and that's something that will work for you with the 8800GT. Still there are things you can only do on XP, so that's why I suggest the dual boot.

I just wish I had gone with the 64 bit version of Vista.

[Cobra951]

Dammit.  This thread is really making me want a new PC.

Idol, I never understood the big deal about EAX.  I have never used more than 2.1 channels, and I can't be bothered with stringing speakers all over the room.  Good phase-coherent speakers give me plenty of width and depth anyway.  I've played with all the audio processing features of the EAX console, and I always end up disabling them.  The echoes and other ambience effects do not sound natural to me.  And OpenAL screws up with such things enabled here.  Damn Creative to hell.  If there's a good alternative, I'd jump on it.

[Pugnate]

Cobra there is good in you, I can see it. Sell your console... leave the dark side!

But yes, Creative does suck giant ones.

[Quemaqua]

I will never buy another Creative product.  Ever.  They were a great company until it was clear that they owned the market, then they just instantly stopped caring and haven't looked back.  Fuck 'em.

Also, EAX is vastly overrated.  Even when it does what it's supposed to, most games have alternative measures that sound almost as good, yet in some cases I've found the EAX stuff to sound really exaggerated and terrible.  It varies, but on the whole it isn't worth stressing over.  My onboard seems to support it anyway, but I generally leave it off even when given the option.

And I'll pass on dual booting.  Having two operating systems, in my experience, is really annoying.  I'd never do it again unless there was a clear reason.

As for the quad core... yeah, hold off.  I got my dual core with all these visions of games taking true advantage of it in the near future, and that was a load of crap for the most part.  There are some very minor optimizations in some games, but hardly anything significant at all on the PC side.  I like the processor just fine and am not unhappy with the purchase, but when it comes to throwing in more cores just for the hell of it, and at a price... meh.

[WindAndConfusion]

I just have one thing to add:

Be wary of integrated audio, especially if you're using analog sound outputs. Your typical mobo manufacturer doesn't understand things like "cross-talk" or "interference," so they do utterly retarded things like running the analog audio channels parallel to each other, and also parallel to power lines, for a distance of several centimeters, before finally connecting them to an RCA jack that isn't properly shielded or grounded.

The result is pops, cracks and buzzes that make your 2007 digital computer with "high def audio" sound like a vinyl record from 1970.

Also be wary of dedicated sound cards. They look good on paper, but they cost too much money and the drivers invariably suck.

[Pugnate]

I remember Creative had the best optical drives... ever.

I've had seven drives my whole life. Two by Creative, two by Samsung, one by LG, one from Sony and one from Lite ON.

My LiteON crapped out in 2 years. My first Samsung took a year before it developed problems that left it unusable. The second that I use is developing problems a year into its purchase.

The LG I actually bought for someone else and it kept overheating till it busted in six months.

My Sony DVD writer is thankfully good after two years, but my sister's Sony DVD drive malfunctions from time to time.

So yes this isn't a happy list. And the Samsung DVD drives were the worst. However my old Creative DVD drive is installed on my back up computer, and works like a charm even today, eight years after purchase. My twelve year old, Creative 48x CD drive also continues to work like a charm.

I don't know if Creative were just fantastic at making drives back then, or that companies today really suck. I think it is probably the latter, with everything being made for a buck.

[scottws]

Yeah Samsung's optical stuff is horrible.  I don't know what it is, since most of the other stuff they make is at least decent.  I had a DVD drive that I never attempted to use until a couple years after I got the PC and it simply couldn't read any disc.

I've had good luck with LITE ON stuff.  It's pretty much all I buy.  But Plextor supposedly has the very best drives, but they carry a hefty premium.

[gpw11]

I have pretty much the same motherboard (DS3L), and the on board sound is good enough for me.  I've heard the interference W&C mentions on the on board from my old PC, and there's none of that here.  There is some 'Realtek HD audio' thing that's prety much exactly the same as the control panel for EAX 2, but I haven't really messed around with it enough.  I also don't know if that means you can get that effect in game like with EAX. 

I'd say try out the onboard, and if you don't like it it's not like you can't just go and get a dedicated card later.  I personally think that audio quality hasn't been improved since Live! or Audigy, and as such they're just adding new features you'll never use every year.

As for the ram and quad-core, I was pretty much in the same boat.  Price was a bit of an issue, but it also came down to the fact that quad core support is pretty much non-existent right now.  Sure, Crysis and (I believe) the Unreal Engine games will take advantage of it, but I don't know overall if it's really worth the lower clock speed and FSB.  If it really comes down to future-proofing anyways, just wait for the next model of Intel CPUs out late this year.  I'd imagine they'd be faster and more game-friendly. 

With the Ram, I went for 2Gb.  4 was tempting, but I couldn't personally see the point of having a Gb I probably won't use and a Gb I can't use without dual booting at this point.  I can't see the price of PC-800 jumping that high in the next year or so, and if it comes down to it, that's most likely when you'd want to increase it.  All the kinks hammered out of vista, and an actual reason to use it.  The other thing to keep in mind is that motherboard will support PC-1066.  Again, I don't know if we're at the point where the speed of the ram really matters all that much, but I'd expect PC-1066 to drop in price quite a bit when production ramps up for the next intel cpus (unless they take DDR3).

[scottws]

I don't think there is such thing as "quad-core support" and "dual-core support."  If something is multi-threaded, they system itself should distribute the threads among any available cores.

[gpw11]

Interesting.  I did not know that.

[Pugnate]

I didn't know that either, though it does make sense, if you think about it.

I do remember reading something about games taking advantage of dual cores but not quad cores yet. I probably misunderstood that.

Also there was a recent patch for Virtua Tennis that added "Multicore support". It didn't place a number on it, so that makes sense now. Still if I find one of those articles I will post a link.

[scottws]

Probably means there are only two threads at most...