Topic: So, I bought Oblivion...

[gpw11]

I'm not a huge PC RPG guy by any means, but it looks interesting enough...and it was $20.  Is there anything I really need to know before I really get into it?  I played a bit, created a character and class, got out of the sewers and had a bit of fun. 

Any must-have mods or plug-ins?

[Quemaqua]

Must-have?  Not so much.  There are a huge variety of really good ones, but I don't think that any of them really change the scope of the game in any particularly drastic way.  Well, unless you hate the way the game scales to player level... for some, that's a huge turn off, and there are like 2 - 4 different mods out there that *completely* change the way the game works mechanically.  I like it stock just fine, so never bothered with them.

If you plan to invest a lot of time into the thing, it might be worth getting a mod that changes the level rate.  I found that it went up too quickly and I was making too much progress, so having one that made it like 4 times longer to gain skills matched the game up better with the amount of time I've invested in it, especially with the additional content of Shivering Isles and all the DLC.

My only advice is to not be afraid of the difficulty slider.  If you find that your character build isn't working out so well, don't be afraid to knock it down a bit.  My first character was a thiefy guy, and he worked out really well a lot of the time, but in certain circumstances he was just woefully underpowered (vs. certain enemy types, etc.).  I probably could have worked my alchemy skills up higher and used more potions to stay viable in combat, but I didn't want to put in the effort.  My current fighter/mage/conjurer guy kicks a lot more ass a lot more directly.

[Pugnate]

I really enjoyed it, and found myself lost in its magic, but I thought a couple of key areas really ruined it for me in the end. Things that eventually no mod seemed to fix.

The game unfortunately has all the non playable characters level up with you, without cap. Now think about how absurd that is, especially in an RPG.

When you hit level 20 and become uber powerful, so does every guard, every beggar and every thug. It really ruined the experience for me. The best thing about being powerful in an RPG is to experience that change by mauling enemies that used to give you trouble.

That isn't quite possible in Oblivion.

At higher levels you get attacked by bandits who have extremely expensive equipment, even though they are committing petty crimes. 

There have been tons of mods that have tried to address this. Unfortunately most of them are too buggy or too bloated to help. I checked them all out, and they unfortunately can't seem to tackle this simple problem.

This is basically what has stopped me from enjoying the game. If someone finds an effective mod, let me know, though I've lost hope.

One other issue is skill cap. I played as an archer, and without even scratching the surface of the game, I found myself having capped my marksmen skills. I probably completed about 20%, yet couldn't raise my favorite skill.

At that point I was still not doing enough damage as an archer, and the worst of it was that as I leveled up, so did all the NPCs, but my marksmen skill didn't. In other words my only choice was to find some equipment and modify it.

The hellgates themselves are a bit disappointing in that they keep opening. The first time you encounter one, it will feel like a great plot device, and the whole situation will feel intense. But after you close that first gate, they just keep popping up, diluting their worth to the point of extreme annoyance.

TI really enjoyed it, and found myself lost in its magic, but I thought a couple of key areas really ruined it for me in the end. Things that eventually no mod seemed to fix.

The game unfortunately has all the non playable characters level up with you, without cap. Now think about how absurd that is, especially in an RPG.

When you hit level 20 and become uber powerful, so does every guard, every beggar and every thug. It really ruined the experience for me. The best thing about being powerful in an RPG is to experience that power by mauling enemies that used to give you trouble.

That isn't quite possible in Oblivion.

At higher levels you get attacked by bandits who have extremely expensive equipment, even though they are committing petty crimes. I found that absurd.

There have been tons of mods that have tried to address this. Unfortunately most of them are too buggy or too bloated to help.

This is basically what has stopped me from enjoying the game. If someone finds an effective mod, let me know, though I've lost hope.

One other issue is skill cap. I played as an archer, and without even scratching the surface of the game, I found myself having capped my marksmen skills. I probably finished about 20%, yet couldn't raise my favorite skill.

At that point I was still not doing enough damage as an archer, and the worst of it was that as I leveled up, so did all the NPCs, but my marksmen skill didn't. So in that aspect the game is a lot about finding the right equipment and then modifying it with the stuff you find in the hellgates.

The hellgates themselves are a bit disappointing in that they keep opening. The first time you encounter one, it will feel like a great plot device, and the whole situation will feel intense. But after you close that first gate, they just keep popping up, and stop feeling dangerous, and more like annoying. 

While technically this game is better than Morrowind, in that it runs pretty well, I thought Morrowind got a few other things right. I've actually exchanged a few e-mails with Desslok from PCG on this, and he seems to hate these problems even more.

After plenty of mod hunting I've decided maybe it will just be better to wait for Elder Scrolls 5, and hope they don't let the console market not affect the development too much.

If you plan to invest a lot of time into the thing, it might be worth getting a mod that changes the level rate.  I found that it went up too quickly and I was making too much progress, so having one that made it like 4 times longer to gain skills matched the game up better with the amount of time I've invested in it, especially with the additional content of Shivering Isles and all the DLC.

Yea I really liked that mod.

edit:

One of the problems with those mods that try to fix the enemy leveling issue is that most of them require a restart. And then on top of that they are very buggy, and seem to break other stuff.

[Quemaqua]

I would never use one personally, no.

Also, I like the world leveling thing.  What kills most RPGs for me is being all powerful.  I fucking hate that.  What's the point in marching around the landscape with nothing to challenge you?  It becomes boring tedium in short order.  Oblivion still has weaker enemies that you'll encounter which get easier to kill, it simply puts you into new class of enemies that will spawn in certain circumstances... but if called for, weaker ones will still spawn too.  I felt Oblivion handled the leveling vs. feeling of progression quite well, and the only thing that bugged me was how bandits would have nicer equipment and stuff.  But I'm pretty sure I actually do have a mod for that that works well, because most of the guys don't seem to carry that stuff much now.  It's hard to remember because I haven't been at it heavily in a while and I have like 40 mods or something (a lot of which are really small or not very useful, or purely cosmetic... the mods I had for Morrowind were much more grand in scope).

[MysterD]

Get BTMod -- so you can actually see plenty of your Inventory on-screen, regardless of Resolution.

[Quemaqua]

Oooh, yeah.  BTMod is great.  Makes the PC interface less console-like.  Dark UI is a nice mod, too, which has a BTMod extension I think.  It makes the UI look like really dark, sort of mahogany-colored leather.  I find it easier on the eyes, plus it just looks nicer.  There are also several map mods which make the in-game map look a lot more colorful and nice.  Elven Cartographers I think is the one I'm using.  Search around on Morrowind Summit or Planet Elder Scrolls for stuff and you should find that easily enough.

[Xessive]

Welcome GPW! Hope you love the game as we do

BTMod combined with Immersive Interface is really good I think. Keeps the interface minimal.

Personally I also like the Natural Environments plugin. I think Que hates it though

Frankly, I like the vanilla gameplay so I don't have too many gameplay modifications, except for a few that I feel adjust it i.e. NoPsychicGuards, ModMans_Arrows100 (100% arrow retrieval), and a better sneaking plugin where if you get out of the line of sight you can hide again (forgot what it's called, Move&Hide maybe?).

Other than that I just have a few cosmetic changes (better faces, eyes, textures, etc.). One of the best cosmetic changes was IlluminationWithin, which basically makes windows light up at night so the cities feel more alive.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, that illumination mod is great.  There's a second version, though, Illuminated Within Revived or Reborn or something like that.  Somebody took up the reigns where the original authors gave up.

And beware of Natural Environments.  It isn't that I don't like it, it's that it's buggy as fuck.  Last I checked, anyway, which was admittedly some time ago.  I've used a few different individual portions of it (it's made in a modular way so you can pick and choose what you like), and I've had mixed results.  It's really to taste anyway, as some people like the changes, some find them overkill.

There are good cosmetic mods out there, though, for a variety of things.  There are several "better bodies" type mods, though this was hard for me to find.  Eshme's body mod was I think the most popular, and people were making new clothes for it and such.  There was also one with the stupid name of "younger, hotter NPCs" or something like that, and basically all it did was set the youth slider way down for most of the chicks, and this really ends up being for the best.  It just makes them a bit easier on the eyes, as some of them were downright ugly by default.  It actually seems more natural that way as opposed to the other way around, which doesn't make a lot of sense, but I'll be damned if I want to stare at ugly people all day.

[Pugnate]

I would never use one personally, no.

Also, I like the world leveling thing.  What kills most RPGs for me is being all powerful.  I fucking hate that.  What's the point in marching around the landscape with nothing to challenge you?  It becomes boring tedium in short order.  Oblivion still has weaker enemies that you'll encounter which get easier to kill, it simply puts you into new class of enemies that will spawn in certain circumstances... but if called for, weaker ones will still spawn too.  I felt Oblivion handled the leveling vs. feeling of progression quite well, and the only thing that bugged me was how bandits would have nicer equipment and stuff.  But I'm pretty sure I actually do have a mod for that that works well, because most of the guys don't seem to carry that stuff much now.  It's hard to remember because I haven't been at it heavily in a while and I have like 40 mods or something (a lot of which are really small or not very useful, or purely cosmetic... the mods I had for Morrowind were much more grand in scope).

That's the other extreme though. It doesn't feel at all realistic with the same enemies leveling up. However on the other hand, like you said, you being uber powerful would be just as retarded. There should a balance. Certain areas should be designed with higher level players in mind. Like before you take on a certain quest, it should warn you that it is recommended for higher level players. And Oblivion does that at times. Certain quests can't be taken on till you hit level 20, while certain caves can't be entered either.

[Quemaqua]

Who plays Oblivion for realism?  Certainly not I.  There's nothing that strikes me as even remotely real about any of it.  It's a beautiful playground, to be sure, but the facade is all cardboard.  The animations are terrible, the dialogue repeats itself constantly, and there's immersion-breaking weirdness around every corner.  Don't get me wrong, I love the game to death and would probably sell my own mother for the continued privilege of playing it, but... yeah, I don't find the leveling off-putting or somehow harming the game's realism at all.

As another random aside and plug for my current obsession: if you want realism, try The Witcher.  That does a brilliant job of feeling real.  It does hurt more when you see immersion-breaking inconsistencies and technical issues in it, but on the whole it brings together a startlingly tactile and relevant-feeling world.

[Pugnate]

Who plays Oblivion for realism?  Certainly not I.  There's nothing that strikes me as even remotely real about any of it. 

No shit...That's not what I meant. I am not looking for Rainbow Six meets Oblivion

It is a fantasy game, and I accept the world for what it is. However the rest of the world leveling up with you is absurd, and defies all logic. It totally takes me out of the game. What is the point of your character gaining experience points, when the NPCs get better with you as well? Is there any point to leveling up then, when I'll have the same difficulty in killing a measly beggar at level 20 as I did at level 1?

Thank goodness they aren't using the same level scaling for Fallout 3.

It is pretty much the reason why I quit the game prematurely. I know there are a couple of mods, but I've tried both and found them buggy. The problem is their updates don't work on saved games, and I just can restart. Bah, I know I'll probably play Oblivion again. It is still an excellent game.

There is a guy called Desslock on PCGamer. I've exchanged a few e-mails with him in the past, and he does the RPG articles for PCG. Here is something he wrote that I agree with completely:

Gaining power to kick some serious butt is a hallmark of RPGs. Typically, you're initially relegated to exterminating rats and similarly mundane vermin, but after questing for a few dozen hours, you're capable of dragon slaying. One of the great perks of becoming more powerful is the ability to strut through previously ominous territory and beat the crap out of enemies that used to terrify you. But Oblivion scales in difficulty and denies you that sense of accomplishment. If you return to a crypt after gaining some experience levels, hoping to stomp the zombies that previously manhandled you, you discover that those blasted undead have upgraded to deadly Wraiths. Oblivion's enemies reorganize into groups, and as you advance in level, enemies are supplanted by more powerful creatures within those groups. So, the Goblins you once encountered are replaced by Goblin Skirmishers and finally by Goblin Warlords. There isn't even a reprieve once you've encountered a group's most powerful creatures, as those enemies constantly scale up in attributes and equipment to match your level. Oblivion's scaling makes level advancement less rewarding, makes its world unrealistic-eventually, bandits demanding pennies end up decked out in glass armor and magical equipment worth more than lavish estates. You're actually regarded for not advancing in level-quests such as the Kvatch Siege are easier you undertake them as a pleb, since you'll only encounter Stunted Daedra instead of their more formidable counterparts. A demonic invasion isn't so terrifying when its bridgehead forces could have been routed by a lone wild bear.


Fortunately, Fallout 3 will not use Oblivion's level-scaling, but contrary to what you may have read elsewhere, scaling isn't completely discarded. The first important change is that creatures never scale up in abilities to match your level, so each Deathclaw in F3 will always have the same attributes, regardless of your character's level when you have the misfortune of encountering it. Second, each territory in the game is now assigned an encounter level that determines the level and equipment of critters when you discover that area, so a first-level character that wanders into an area designated as "encounter level 5" will be badly outmatched by the inhabitants. Loot is also generally scaled to the area's encounter level, but some item items will be hand-placed, which is similar to how Morrowind handled loot.


An area's level doesn't remain static, but it gets locked as soon as you enter it. If you enter a city block designated as a level 5 area, it will remain a level 5 area and never scale up in difficulty. Areas you haven't yet encountered do "tether up" in difficulty level, but the tethering level doesn't linearly scale with your level, so there's still an advantage to gaining experience levels. The city block that's initially designated as a level 5 area will tether up and be designated as a level8 area if you don't wander into it until you're a level 15 character. But since an area's level is locked once you enter it, you'll still get the satisfaction of returning to a previously difficult area and annihilating its residents once you have a more powerful character.


Bethesda's still tweaking these systems, but they should make exploration more interesting and not diminish the regard for advancement by making you feel like you can never really get ahead. I'd still prefer a static world like Gothic's, where encounters are always consistent regardless of your character level, but this toned-down scaling system sounds like a huge improvement over Oblivions.

Oh and as for The Witcher, I've been waiting for that game for a while. I'll have to wait a bit more till it patches. I have a lot to play meanwhile.

[Xessive]

Dude! They ought to make a Tactical Medieval Fantasy game! Is that what Hellgate: London was supposed to be? kinda?

The one thing I hated about the leveling was that you basically get penalized for completing quests early in the game. If you get a unique reward item when you're low-level, you get a shitty low-level version of the potentially awesome item. By the time you've reached a decent level the item is practically useless. Fortunately somebody made a Quest Award Leveling mod that allows certain unique items to level up with you.

I think that is Oblivion's (and Morrowind's) greatest asset: community accessibility. It's got to be the most modifiable game out there!

[Quemaqua]

Well, my point was, Pug, that the entire game defies all logic, in a lot more ways with TES games than some other typical fantasy RPG series.  I just don't see why you find that one thing to defy logic and yet can accept all the other absurdity.  It just strikes me as incongruous.  I guess it's just me, but we all have things that push our buttons, certainly.

And again, I don't see the lack of advancement argument at all.  There are still weaker enemies in Oblivion, and really, do you ever technically advance in any RPG?  You go to places with higher level enemies, and fight them, which equals the exact same thing as Oblivion, except that Oblivion is smart enough to give you a challenge wherever you go, allowing you the freedom of total exploration, instead of saying "Okay, now that you're level 50, 80% of the game is completely useless to you now", forcing you into the other 20%.  That's why I've gotten hundreds upon hundreds of hours out of Oblivion, because I can revisit "old" locations and still find new things, play through areas I liked and still get a different experience than I had the first time, with different rewards, and generally play the game however I damn well please.  Most other RPGs tell me I can't do that, that all areas will forever remain the same, that once I've powered up there's no point in revisiting anything, that the only option left to me is to go find that crazy Obelisk in the desert somewhere where the next evil wizard dwells, even if I don't find the prospect of fighting the evil Obelisk wizard particularly compelling.  Do I really care that a bandit may be leveling with me in the face of all the advantages?  No, not really.  I'm still going to beat his ass into the ground in either case, what difference does it make if it takes a few extra hits?

I'm not trying to move you from your opinion or call it wrong, btw.  I'm just trying to explain why I think Oblivion's style suits me so well.  Some people like to be overpowered and trounce the weakling enemies like some super badass, but I find that defeats the purpose of a game for the reasons that I generally play it.  The one exception I can think of is Final Fantasy XII, where for some reason everything came together in such a way that enemy levels never bothered me except on very rare occasions.  It didn't initially bother me in World of Warcraft either, until I realized after not playing it for several months that I wanted to go back to some previous areas because I liked them, but there was absolutely no point in doing so because the gameplay there had been completely emptied.

Also, Desslock is overrated.  I've spoken with him before, and he's a cool guy, but I don't consider him the RPG authority that most do.  Most likely this just stems from my being completely fed up with games journalism right now, though.  I seriously hate just about everybody involved in it, be they part of a web publication or a magazine.  I'm sick of people taking other people's opinions as their own (and again, I'm not saying you did that here, this isn't meant to be a flame or argument post at all), and I'm sick of the authority that these people have somehow managed to garner when they really don't deserve it.  Nobody takes movie reviews and such this seriously, why the fuck do we take game ratings the way we do?  And keep in mind, this is coming from someone whose dream for years was to be involved in games journalism professionally.  I like what I like, and I'll be damned if I'm going to listen to some other snot tell me that I shouldn't, and it suddenly feels like that's all I'm reading now is opinionated arrogance that wants to feel educated.  Reviews have always been opinion, but they never used to feel so fucking pretentious and self-righteous.

Whoa.  Okay, rant over.  Sorry.

*cough*

[Cobra951]

Pug, I agree with you completely here.  What Oblivion does with scaling is ridiculous.  The point of working hard at leveling up is to become genuinely more powerful in the game world.  If the whole world levels up with you, it's meaningless.  You should be able to one-shot the lowly thugs who have the stupidity to attack an experienced master at combat or lethal magic.  To me, this was done as a band-aid attempt at solving the problem of what happens to game balance as you gain power.  The real solution is to make the challenges themselves belong to different levels of characters.  Traditionally this has been done by having increasingly powerful enemies appear as the character gets further away from the point of origin.  In Oblivion, there is no geographical gradient of challenge.  It may not be practical to do it this way, but that doesn't mean there is no solution.  All it means is they didn't come up with one.  They took away all motivation to level up instead.  My biggest peeve with this is that weapons themselves end up useless.  It's better not to level up if you have a favorite sword that's going to be like a wooden toy 6 levels later.

[Pugnate]

Well, my point was, Pug, that the entire game defies all logic, in a lot more ways with TES games than some other typical fantasy RPG series.  I just don't see why you find that one thing to defy logic and yet can accept all the other absurdity.  It just strikes me as incongruous.  I guess it's just me, but we all have things that push our buttons, certainly.

And again, I don't see the lack of advancement argument at all.  There are still weaker enemies in Oblivion, and really, do you ever technically advance in any RPG?  You go to places with higher level enemies, and fight them, which equals the exact same thing as Oblivion, except that Oblivion is smart enough to give you a challenge wherever you go, allowing you the freedom of total exploration, instead of saying "Okay, now that you're level 50, 80% of the game is completely useless to you now", forcing you into the other 20%.  That's why I've gotten hundreds upon hundreds of hours out of Oblivion, because I can revisit "old" locations and still find new things, play through areas I liked and still get a different experience than I had the first time, with different rewards, and generally play the game however I damn well please.  Most other RPGs tell me I can't do that, that all areas will forever remain the same, that once I've powered up there's no point in revisiting anything, that the only option left to me is to go find that crazy Obelisk in the desert somewhere where the next evil wizard dwells, even if I don't find the prospect of fighting the evil Obelisk wizard particularly compelling.  Do I really care that a bandit may be leveling with me in the face of all the advantages?  No, not really.  I'm still going to beat his ass into the ground in either case, what difference does it make if it takes a few extra hits?

I'm not trying to move you from your opinion or call it wrong, btw.  I'm just trying to explain why I think Oblivion's style suits me so well.  Some people like to be overpowered and trounce the weakling enemies like some super badass, but I find that defeats the purpose of a game for the reasons that I generally play it.  The one exception I can think of is Final Fantasy XII, where for some reason everything came together in such a way that enemy levels never bothered me except on very rare occasions.  It didn't initially bother me in World of Warcraft either, until I realized after not playing it for several months that I wanted to go back to some previous areas because I liked them, but there was absolutely no point in doing so because the gameplay there had been completely emptied.

Also, Desslock is overrated.  I've spoken with him before, and he's a cool guy, but I don't consider him the RPG authority that most do.  Most likely this just stems from my being completely fed up with games journalism right now, though.  I seriously hate just about everybody involved in it, be they part of a web publication or a magazine.  I'm sick of people taking other people's opinions as their own (and again, I'm not saying you did that here, this isn't meant to be a flame or argument post at all), and I'm sick of the authority that these people have somehow managed to garner when they really don't deserve it.  Nobody takes movie reviews and such this seriously, why the fuck do we take game ratings the way we do?  And keep in mind, this is coming from someone whose dream for years was to be involved in games journalism professionally.  I like what I like, and I'll be damned if I'm going to listen to some other snot tell me that I shouldn't, and it suddenly feels like that's all I'm reading now is opinionated arrogance that wants to feel educated.  Reviews have always been opinion, but they never used to feel so fucking pretentious and self-righteous.

Whoa.  Okay, rant over.  Sorry.

*cough*

See we are disagreeing on something and Xero is no where to be found.

Well, my point was, Pug, that the entire game defies all logic, in a lot more ways with TES games than some other typical fantasy RPG series.  I just don't see why you find that one thing to defy logic and yet can accept all the other absurdity.  It just strikes me as incongruous.  I guess it's just me, but we all have things that push our buttons, certainly.

I think I may be misunderstanding you here. By other stuff defying logic, do you mean hell gates, magic and the like? Or do you mean the other immersion breakers like all NPCs having the same dialog, looking the same etc?

Having reread your earlier post, I think you mean the latter. Initially I mistook what you said, and thought you meant the former, which is what resulted in the Rainbow Six Oblivion comment.

But yes, other aspects are equally dumb in their logic, but I find it far easier to tolerate those. It is just me, I guess. I just don't talk to every NPC and thus don't notice their flaws. But while I can choose to ignore the retarded NPC chatter, I can't ignore the combat because it is essential to progress.

There are still weaker enemies in Oblivion, and really, do you ever technically advance in any RPG?  You go to places with higher level enemies, and fight them, which equals the exact same thing as Oblivion

Man I feel like such a nerd for having this conversation haha.

Anyway I am just thinking of some of my favorite RPGs like Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate II, Neverwinter Nights, Planescape etc.

In most of those you find yourself going to the ends of the in game universe, encountering all sorts of enemies. And yes you encounter more powerful enemies in different areas, but most of those games are clever enough to throw the very weaklings that gave you trouble at later levels, and that's where you feel the growth of your character.

In BG1, BG2 and NWN there are chapters that span a growth of five character levels. You can chose to finish the quests in these chapters in any order, and can appreciate your growth.

I love it when I start those games with my mage, who at level 1 is extremely weak as compared to the rest of the NPC party. But as the game progresses, I find my mage to be the most powerful in the squad. Where at level 1 he would struggle against a single bandit, at level 20 he could easily wipe out a bandit camp of 50 on his own with a few fire storm spells.

I realize you don't change locations in Oblivion, but I still think they could have managed a better system.

I'm not trying to move you from your opinion or call it wrong, btw.  I'm just trying to explain why I think Oblivion's style suits me so well.  Some people like to be overpowered and trounce the weakling enemies like some super badass, but I find that defeats the purpose of a game for the reasons that I generally play it.

Oh no not at all. I am sure you won't take my opinions as anything else either.

I don't understand people who want to go trouncing weaklings like a badass either haha. Nor do I want to do that. I like games that challenge, which is probably why I liked BG2, because its difficulty was quite alright. I think what people wanted was to be challenged by new enemies, but not for the weaklings to become uber powerful.

Also, Desslock is overrated.  I've spoken with him before, and he's a cool guy, but I don't consider him the RPG authority that most do.  Most likely this just stems from my being completely fed up with games journalism right now, though.  I seriously hate just about everybody involved in it, be they part of a web publication or a magazine.  I'm sick of people taking other people's opinions as their own (and again, I'm not saying you did that here, this isn't meant to be a flame or argument post at all), and I'm sick of the authority that these people have somehow managed to garner when they really don't deserve it.  Nobody takes movie reviews and such this seriously, why the fuck do we take game ratings the way we do?  And keep in mind, this is coming from someone whose dream for years was to be involved in games journalism professionally.  I like what I like, and I'll be damned if I'm going to listen to some other snot tell me that I shouldn't, and it suddenly feels like that's all I'm reading now is opinionated arrogance that wants to feel educated.  Reviews have always been opinion, but they never used to feel so fucking pretentious and self-righteous.

I actually find Desslock one of the few writers on PCG that I tend to agree with. You've probably already read about my disillusionment with the publication, but Desslock is one of the few who I personally like.

BTW I didn't post that to attack you or something. I just thought his article expressed my thoughts better than I could.

I'm sick of people taking other people's opinions as their own

For some reason I've found it to be the opposite. Everywhere on the web, people seem to attack any and every writer. No one seems to agree with anyone anymore, or at least that's   how it appears to me. People who used to hold Gamespot in high regard seem to dislike their writings as well. It seems to the sentiment on so many forums, and seems to be coming out during this past year.

You should be able to one-shot the lowly thugs who have the stupidity to attack an experienced master at combat or lethal magic.

Exactly. Even when I was a maxed out archer, I was being chased around by highway robbers.

In Oblivion, there is no geographical gradient of challenge.  It may not be practical to do it this way, but that doesn't mean there is no solution.

That's right, the world is pretty big. And having enemies scale with your level does give it that sandbox feel where any quest can be accessed without having it to be beneath you. Having read your post, I can see why they went with the level scaling. But I can think of a few solutions though.

They took away all motivation to level up instead.  My biggest peeve with this is that weapons themselves end up useless.  It's better not to level up if you have a favorite sword that's going to be like a wooden toy 6 levels later.

*nods*




 

[MysterD]

Ultimately, the best solution to a game is not to go to one extreme w/ the game being not-scaled or the other w/ the game being overly scaled. There needs to be fine line drawn right in the middle. Find a medium. We don't want the game too become too static that there's nothing left to do, nor do we need the game to become w/ everything is ever-changing.

Well, Oblivion's most interesting and controversial aspect, scaling levels on the gameworld, is a big topic. And I do believe, it has a list of pro's and con's.

Pros
--The Open-Ended GameWorld Dream
Regardless of if you're level 2 or level 666, you can still tackle most quests at any given time. This is an open-ended gamer's dream, as quests might never really feel too easy to you or too damn hard to you, depending on how the designers do on coding the scaling part.
--Never Forced To Do Secondary Quests
One great thing about Oblivion is the Main Quest levels w/ you. In some games, say what's left to do is The Main Quest and you really don't have the experience to get by this part on The Main Quest. So, if there's a low amount of Secondary Quests, this makes the Secondary Quests actually Primary Quests, in a sense -- you need to do the ALL the Secondaries to advance; that should never happen -- I shouldn't be forced to do ALL The Secondary Stuff. If I want to pull a Final Fantasy and just follow the Main Quest path in a linear manner to finish the game, that probably should be leveled right along with me; which leads me to my next point....
--...Scale It Tougher For Players With Higher Levels
For more hardcore players that are trying to do a lot OR pretty much everything, if you're a much higher level and trying to finish the Main Quest of the game, the game should be scaled a challenging-enough level above the player's level like say Oblivion did -- make it a freakin' good-ass challenge for them. Nothing is more dissatisfying than achieving a game-ending where the final battle is EASY. We really don't need another Morrowind incident like when I faced Dagoth Ur (Morrowind's final enemy), where I'm level 50-something and taking on Dagoth Ur, killing him w/ three freaking swings b/c he ain't even leveling with me. The Main Quest of the game is the game's purpose; it should always be a challenge to the gamer and when you finish it, you should feel you earned the Main Quest's ending.
--Not A Static World
The world's not static. So, ransack some Secondary dungeon at level 10. Come back there, when you're maybe level 50, harder monsters moved in there; go ahead, tackle it, find new loot. Works for me -- it keeps me playing and looking for loot. Good deal.

Cons
--NPC's That Shouldn't Level Up Do Level Up
Beggars, townsfolk, merchants, and other characters that likely would not practice certain skills just shouldn't level up will actually level up with you. In the TES World, practice makes perfect -- which if you practice enough, you leveling up. So, why the hell are these same stiffs (beggars, townsfolks) that don't practice anything actually leveling up? Why are they possibly wearing some sort of expensive armor when they're so poor?!?!? Now, on another hand, you'd expect a guard in a city to practice their skills, which would make sense for THESE guys to level up along with you or be somewhere w/in your range.
--Quests That Sound Like A High-Level Quest Can Be Done At a Low-Level
One big thing is that say at level 2 in a scaled-leveled game like Oblivion, I could be say fighting a big dragon -- and really, I have absolutely no business fighting a monster being so majorly inexperienced. Fighting a big-ass dragon, for example, your level should matter. Something of that nature, a dragon should be given a minimum scaled-level. So, whether you're say level 2 or 45, the dragon's level should always start level 30. So, say you meet level 30 and are equal to the dragon's level; once you meet that minimum, the game can say force the dragon to always be equal to your level or a little bit beyond your level.

So, how do we stop this issue? If you go too static, you get some problems. If you go too scaled, you get other problems. So, game designers need to really find some sort of happy medium -- scale the game a bit, don't scale the game a bit. Make some dungeons static, make some not-so-damn-static.

I think one thing Dungeon Siege 2 got right is w/ it being such a static world, it let the player know "Minimum Suggested Levels" for a Quest in the game's Quest Book. Nothing is more annoying than say in Gothic 2, when you walk around in this low-leveled area w/ level 5 monsters, you take one turn right and find yourself in an area w/ level 25 monsters so that you get killed in one damn swipe. More games should do something of that nature, if you ask me -- let you know what level you should be to take a quest on. Do that or don't offer level 25 stuff so early -- say just don't let the quest-giver give it until later on AND/OR just block off the level 25 area or until you reach somewhere near that actual level.

[Xessive]

I added an archery adjustment plugin, mainly coz I was getting sick of my enemies basically being pin-cushions and I felt it took too many arrows to take down a basic enemy i.e. Scamp. At low level (around level 5) it used to take me about 8 arrows to take down 1 scamp, with the mod it takes about 4 arrows. At higher levels (around level 20) scamps, clanfears, and even some dremoras are one shot kills. Sneak attacks are now pretty much guaranteed kill shots. Naturally, to balance things out, enemy archers do serious damage too. It feels right.

[iPPi]

For Oblivion all I really did was the Thief and the Assassin's quest line and a couple more quests and that was pretty much the end of the game for me.  I got part of the way through the actual campaign but never finished it.

[Quemaqua]

EDIT - And to cleanse the palate afterward:

-

[gpw11]

Um, while we're sort of on the subject, can someone explain to me how to pick locks?  Like, there's something I'm not getting here.  I hit the pin up, and assume I have to move on to the next one before it drops, but can't move the pick left or right while the first pin is in motion.  As you can imagine, I can't pick any locks with more than one pin down.

[Quemaqua]

Everyone thinks you have to move on to the next, but that isn't how it works.  You have to click the pins into place by clicking the mouse button.  So push it up, then when it hits the sweet spot, click.  This locks it in if it's in the proper position (at the height of its jump), or it drops the pin back down and breaks your pick if it isn't.  Just keep tapping it up and try to find a rhythm for it.  Eventually you'll probably start to anticipate when the pin is going to hop a little more slowly, giving you a better opportunity to get the sweet spot.  Do this for each pin until you've got them all up, just beware, because a lower security skill will (I think) cause more pins to drop each time you fail.  So you might miss the one you're on, but then 2 of the other 3 that you already did will also fall back down.

[MysterD]

If you are having trouble w/ the timing of doing lockpicking itself w/ the combo of your skills for the speed of the pins and using some skill manually....

...You could always click the "Auto-attempt" at the bottom of the lock-pick interface, if you want it to be more RPG-like and let it basically rely on your lockpick skill-points and some sort of actual "luck".


Personally, I think once you get the hang of it by practicing how to do it manually quite a bit, even if you got a low lockpick skill, you can still easily do the lockpicking manually once you get the feel of things. Just requires lots of patience, especially early on w/ a low lockpick skill when you try to do it manually.

Once your skill lockpicking skill gets high, though -- you should win most times if you just use "auto-attempt."

[Quemaqua]

How is that a spoiler?

[MysterD]

Point taken.

[gpw11]

Nice, thanks that helps out a lot.

[Pugnate]

How is that a spoiler?

He had that under spoiler tags? 

[Quemaqua]

Point taken.

At least you subscribe to the "better safe than sorry" philosophy!

[MysterD]

At least you subscribe to the "better safe than sorry" philosophy!

Hehe, point taken.

I mean, there have been a few times I spilled some info that I should've tagged w/ spoilers, in the past...
At least I ain't under-using the spoiler tags.

I mean, I know some people -- yes, like myself -- don't want to be spoiled on someone explaining how to get through sections of the game, storyline elements, and other things w/out warning or them spoiler tags.

[Pugnate]

But dude... it was lock picking!

[MysterD]

But dude... it was lock picking!

Yeah, I know...

[Xessive]

Hehe it's a kind of puzzle, so I can see why MyD played it safe

Oblivion is the one game that draws me back so much! When all else fails, I can always go back into Oblivion's incredible world for a bit of fun. Sometimes I'll even start from the very beginning just to create a new character.

[MysterD]

Oblivion is a great RPG that took all the problems that I thought plagued Morrowind and squashed them.
BTMod really fixed my biggest concern w/ Oblivion -- the font being TOO big for the Inventory.

I know some people have concerns about Oblivion's scaled-leveling system -- yes, it has its flaws, of course -- but, I think it's minor.

GREAT game, regardless. And I do need to finish Shiv Isles and try that (One-Week Only it was for FREE Download) FINAL DLC Thing they released.

[Xessive]

Oblivion is a great RPG that took all the problems that I thought plagued Morrowind and squashed them.
BTMod really fixed my biggest concern w/ Oblivion -- the font being TOO big for the Inventory.

I know some people have concerns about Oblivion's scaled-leveling system -- yes, it has its flaws, of course -- but, I think it's minor.

GREAT game, regardless. And I do need to finish Shiv Isles and try that (One-Week Only it was for FREE Download) FINAL DLC Thing they released.

Shivering Isles was amazing to say the least! Just the it thursts you into this new world! hehe

I think that last DLC was called "The Fighters' Stronghold" and it's not bad. Great fortress!

[KontrollerX]

Its a fun game for sure Beav.

I'm not as awesome as the rest of you chaps though so I suffer with the 360 version rather than the superior PC version with mods but eh I suffer because I love. 

[MysterD]

Hell, I barely got any PC Mods installed, Kontroller -- namely just BTMod, basically.

[Quemaqua]

I don't have quite as many mods as I did for Morrowind, but I think I had like... 70 or something for that one.

[MysterD]

Yeah, I had like over 100-something mods for Morrowind -- that was by the time I was done w/ Morrowind, Tribunal, and Bloodmoon.