Topic: He only had a knife...

[idolminds]

Found this linked somewhere. Heres the story behind it:

The photos are of an officer trained in hand-to-hand combat.

The officer figured, due to his size and fighting skills, he could disarm a knife wielding aggressor.

Here is why I am forwarding these on. ..

To all the idiots out there who always say, "Why did the cops have to shoot him ... he only had a (insert your choice of weapons here, i.e knife, bat, club ... whatever) he didn't have to be shot.

To that, I respond, "tough crap ... shoot'em".

If an officer tells you to drop your weapon, just drop it.

If you're a retard, stupid, on crack, mental or just "scared" ... too bad. No one deserves what this cop got for just doing his job. If a homey's got a knife, then homey should be shot ... period.

This is vivid proof of how deadly people who are "only armed with a knife" can be. Some of the public think that officers should try to disarm someone armed with a knife but anyone who has had training in knife fighting will tell you, even if you win you are going to get cut.

Keep this in the back of your mind when confronting someone armed with an edged weapon.

I've always though a knife fight is scarier than a gunfight. A gun you need to aim over a distance, which takes some level of skill depending on distance and what your target is doing. If you move and dodge you can actually get away from someone with a gun. But if someone with a knife grabs you, you're getting cut. Bad.

***WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGES***

[Raisa]

i used to want to carry a knife around with me.  But, my uncle who trains special forces said no way because it's too dangerous even if you know how to use it.  The opponent might know more about knives and use it against me. He told me to just carry pepper spray and always be in shoes that i can run in.

[Pugnate]

I shouldn't have looked.

That must have been a big knife though.

[gpw11]

Tazer him bro.

[idolminds]

Not necessarily. A sharp 3-in kitchen knife can inflict that kind of damage. If it cuts, it cuts. Skin isnt really that thick so it doesnt have to very long to make deep cuts like that. In fact, a larger knife can make it more difficult to inflict damage since its hard to manipulate in a struggle and can get "caught up" on things like ribs when trying to slash.

[Xessive]

That's why claws are efficient.

I've always been a fan of knives and all blades in general, and as the saying goes "in the hands of an expert a knife can be 1001 tools." I've had enough cuts and stabs in my arms and legs to know that it is unpleasant but tolerable; oddly enough pencil stabs are more uncomfortable than scalpel cuts. Thankfully I've never been stabbed in the torso, so I can't imagine how painful it would be.

I'm on the fence with the police handling of such situations. I mean on one hand you don't wanna get into a hand-to-hand situation with a knife-weilding suspect, on the other hand you don't need to shoot him dead. Like GPW said I like the Taser idea. Worst case scanario if you have to fire a gun at him, shoot to immobilize not to kill i.e. shoot him in the leg.

[Pugnate]

No he should shoot them. Why should he put himself at any risk whatsoever? Even if he tried to taser he might have gotten hurt.

[Quemaqua]

I agree.  If some jerk has a weapon and won't drop it, he deserves to die.  When the cops tell you to drop it, you fucking drop it, end of story.  If you don't, whatever happens is your own stupid junkie fault.

[idolminds]

Worst case scanario if you have to fire a gun at him, shoot to immobilize not to kill i.e. shoot him in the leg.

Actually, police never shoot to immobilize. When they make the decision to use deadly force (their gun), then they shoot until the threat is neutralized (dead).

[Cobra951]

Jesus.  Did that guy make it?

What I've heard is that knife wounds are worse than bullet wounds.  I guess that depends on the kind of ammo, because I can't imagine something much worse than a hollow point fragmenting all over your innards.

I'm all for shooting an attacker wielding any kind of lethal weapon, and that includes a human body with twice as much muscle as yours.

[nickclone]

I don't think that the you should always drop your knife when the cops tell you to, but not dropping your knife doesn't mean you should get shot. Unless the guy is a knife throwing champion the cop should be ok if he keeps his distance and keeps his gun on the suspect.

However, I don't really feel bad for this guy even though he got cut up pretty bad. Getting cut sucks, but if you don't want to get shot/cut than you shouldn't be a cop. If he was some innocent dude that got stabbed I would be more inclined to feel bad.

Also, it seems like he wasn't wearing a vest. Knives can pierce them, but only with a stabbing motion.

[Cobra951]

How is a cop doing his job of clearing the street of scum not an innocent guy?  I'd say if you don't want to get shot, don't be a blade-wielding thug.

[scottws]

Wow, those shots are almost as gruesome as some of the shark attack picks I've seen.

[nickclone]

How is a cop doing his job of clearing the street of scum not an innocent guy?  I'd say if you don't want to get shot, don't be a blade-wielding thug.

Choosing to enforce the law puts you in danger, they are voluntarily putting themselves in these types of situations. If you become a fire fighter theres a good chance you might be burned, race car driver and car accidents, hooker and AIDS, etc.

[scottws]

Right, but what does that have to do with shooting someone who poses a danger too you as a police officer?

[nickclone]

Right, but what does that have to do with shooting someone who poses a danger too you as a police officer?

Gun beats knife, if you don't want to get knifed then keep your distance. If the perp comes at you, shoot him. I'm sure it would be a clean shooting, the cop gets a few weeks vacation, a medal and comes back to work.

A cop's job is to arrest criminals and bring them up on charges, they're not supposed to kill them. I know that sometimes they have no other choice, but its supposed to be an absolute last resort. I'm sure you all have seen that video of the guy waving a knife around and a cop just outright kills him. My point is that if you can't take the responsibilities that come with being a cop (not beating people, going to the same domestic disturbance, having a drunk piss in your car, etc) then you shouldn't become a cop.

[scottws]

Well I certainly don't condone blowing someone away because they have a knife, but if the cop wants to arrest them for some (legitimate) reason and the guy has a knife in his hand, won't put it down after ordered to several times, and poses a clear threat, then I've got no problem with the knife-wielder getting his.

[nickclone]

Well I certainly don't condone blowing someone away because they have a knife, but if the cop wants to arrest them for some (legitimate) reason and the guy has a knife in his hand, won't put it down after ordered to several times, and poses a clear threat, then I've got no problem with the knife-wielder getting his.

They shouldn't shoot the guy, but I'm all about the the pepper spray and taser. I've felt both, they're not that bad.

[WindAndConfusion]

Nick, just drop it. You're not going to change anyone's mind.

Certain people will never have trouble with the cops. The worst that ever happens to them is that they get a few speeding tickets they actually deserved.

Certain people will always get hassled by the cops. They get arrested for walking down the street, or occasionally they get shot and killed without warning because Officer Down's Syndrome can't tell the difference between a gun and a cell phone.

People from the first group almost always trust the cops. People from the second group almost never do.

(To be fair, I have met a few cops who weren't complete douche bags. Once I met an officer who was actually a decent human being. But that's the exception, not the rule.)

[nickclone]

Nick, just drop it. You're not going to change anyone's mind.

Certain people will never have trouble with the cops. The worst that ever happens to them is that they get a few speeding tickets they actually deserved.

Certain people will always get hassled by the cops. They get arrested for walking down the street, or occasionally they get shot and killed without warning because Officer Down's Syndrome can't tell the difference between a gun and a cell phone.

People from the first group almost always trust the cops. People from the second group almost never do.

(To be fair, I have met a few cops who weren't complete douche bags. Once I met an officer who was actually a decent human being. But that's the exception, not the rule.)

I never expect to change anyone's mind, only get my point across.

I too have met some asshole cops and some truly cool ones, unfortunately asshole seems to beat cool 4 to 1.

[gpw11]

Most of the time the argument isn't "he had a knife and was coming at you, why'd you have to shoot him?"  It's "he had a pen and was walking down the street, why'd you have to shoot him".

Honestly, cops fuck up a lot, and that's only human.  That said, they should be held to a higher standard then the rest of society simply because of the trust we place in them.  Very, very few people will actually argue that police should NEVER shoot someone, but you have to be fucking blind to believe that they never use unnecessary force in one way or another.

But that email is retarded. "homey"?  I'd be willing to bet a cop wrote that. 

[Cobra951]

W&C, I'm in your 1st group, and my experience is just the opposite as yours with cops in general, although I've had some close calls.  What I've found is that even when you bring out the worst in cops due to not being prepared for them, you can quickly defuse the situation.  Challenging them on their turf is like waving a red flag in a bull's face.  Don't do it, and you'll be alright.  Give them respect, not attitude.  If they're way off base, you can destroy them in court later, should the need arise.  In the meantime, "yes sir," "no sir," "how high, sir?" works wonders.

[nickclone]

I agree, most cops can be cool, but when they choose to be dicks they really don't hold back.

[WindAndConfusion]

Cobra, I'm not a moron. I've never insulted a police officer (to his face, at least), never raised my voice, never done anything remotely rude. I always add "sir" to the end of my sentences. Except for some underage drinking and "experimentation" in my earlier years, I'm completely law-abiding. So far, I have no police record at all, mostly for three reasons: Good Manners, Good Luck, and Good Running Shoes.

Note that good manners alone won't protect you. Neither will the courts. Since this thread was started by an anecdote posted on a forum, let me chip in some anecdotes of my own:

Once, when I was in high school, several of my friends and I were walking through town late at night. We were travelling in two groups, one about a hundred meters behind the other. We had the bad luck to walk by a store that had been broken into a few hours earlier, where some cops (apparently having nothing better to do) decided to set up an ambush. Everyone in the first group got arrested; then the cops noticed the second group, and everyone (including me) just ran. The kids that got arrested were held overnight and charged with bullshit crimes (which were dropped before they went to court). They literally got arrested for walking down the street.

My senior year of high school, a friend of mine got arrested (also a bullshit charge, later dropped) because he refused to let a highway patrol officer conduct an unconstitutional search of his car. He was held for several hours, then released. I had to pick him up at 5 AM, then drive him to the impound lot where he had to pay a few hundred dollars to get his car back.

Another friend of mine got ticketed based on a neighbor's complaint. My friend took it to court, and the case was quickly dismissed because the cop had no evidence at all (except the neighbor's inadmissible hearsay). Nevertheless, he was a minor and had a bad driving record, so the DMV suspended his license for six months. (The complaint was that my friend had almost hit a deer that was crossing the road late at night, which somehow became "reckless driving.")

The cops in my hometown had a reputation for stealing weed when they arrested people, or using the threat of arrest to steal weed. This happened several times.

There are other accounts I've heard of people getting ticketed, and challenging the tickets. If the cop shows up, he'll probably lie on the witness stand (and of course a cop's word counts for more than the defendant's and several friends). If he doesn't show up, the judge will schedule another hearing instead of dismissing the charge.

But all that's just gravy. Let me tell you about two cases that really piss me off. They both involve kids who had epilepsy, one of whom I knew from jr. high and high school:

In the first case, a kid had a seizure and someone called 911. (This was the kid I knew - he was ~17 when this happened, and weighed about 100 pounds.) The police arrived first, decided to arrest him, and then he had another seizure. The police figured he was resisting arrest, so they dog-piled him until he suffocated.

In the second case, someone in his early 20's got arrested for possession of drugs. He did have drugs - they were prescription, in a prescription bottle, with a prescription label that clearly described what the drugs were, what they looked like, and who they were prescribed to. He also had valid identification, proving that he was the person mentioned on the label. Nevertheless, he was arrested, his meds were confiscated, he was denied a phone call, and then he was thrown into a jail cell for several hours, unsupervised. At some point he had a seizure (probably because he didn't have his meds!), and of course there was no one around. I think he choked to death on his own vomit.

So yeah, I kind of dislike the police.

Also, those two cases happened within a few months of each other. I remember reading the letters to the editor in the local paper. They were full of uninformed dipshits defending the cops. ("The police have a right to protect themselves from hundred-pound epileptics!" "Put yourself in the officer's shoes!" "It was his own fault!")

[nickclone]

I'm not going to lie, I was expecting a lot of flack for going against the grain in this thread. However, it makes me feel better knowing that I'm not the only one who doesn't think the cops are the absolute heroes.

[scottws]

Only kids think cops are heroes.  I respect their authority and realize they are necessary, but I also realize that some of them are definitely drunk with power.

[gpw11]

"The police have a right to protect themselves from hundred-pound epileptics!" "Put yourself in the officer's shoes!" "It was his own fault!"

I was going to comment on this earlier, but I love reading letters to the editor about police.  9 times out of 10 I can generally tell what part of the city someone is from based upon their opinion of the police with certain issues.  The replies you mention are almost always from the same blue collar, low educated, middle class area.  Strangely the ones questioning police actions are usually from poor neighborhoods or rich ones.

That said, I don't think people question police enough.  What fucking price are you willing to pay for safety?  Do you seriously think someone is infallible simply because they wear a badge?  Why would you not question the use of force if there is any evidence that it might have been unnecessary? 

Lets not kid ourselves here, there are a lot of cops out there who are cops for the wrong reasons.  To assume otherwise and grant the police in general any sort of leeway with their extended rights and privileges would be ridiculous. 

[WindAndConfusion]

Only kids think cops are heroes. 

Only kids and the adult man-children who write letters to the editor think cops are heroes.

Also politicians. And most voters.

[Cobra951]

I never said or insinuated that anyone here is a moron.  My lifelong experience gives me a generally positive attitude about cops.  I'm most definitely not afraid of them.  I've had negative experiences too, just nothing I couldn't handle.  I've been ticketed for someone else's speeding, ticketed for driving too fast to get to the hospital where my mother was in grave shape (there goes the fantasy about cops escorting you to the hospital) and harassed by 2 cops where one was pissed because he was out in the middle of the road on a dark night in a black uniform, and I almost ran him over.  None of these encounters resulted in arrests or any violence.  Maybe the cops elsewhere in the country are dicks, but I've dealt with them everywhere from here East into Long Island and South into Florida.  I've yet to find the psycho so often portrayed in films about some victimized group of saps out for their weekly joyride.

[nickclone]

I think I might be able to fall through the cracks of your system of where people live/opinion of the cops. I live in a town called Nokesville, Virginia ( I dare you to find it) where I was one of five blacks to graduate from my highschool. I don't speak ebonics, most people have no idea what race I am, but they do realize that I'm dark. I don't jog around the neighborhood because I stand out...and a lot of people get hit by cars.

I'm a black guy living in the middle of "shit kicker" USA, what the hell am I supposed to think of the cops?

[Ghandi]

Only kids think cops are heroes. 

Some are heroes. But, some regular citizens are heroes. Some soldiers are heroes. The fact that they are cops doesn't make them heroes, but it doesn't exclude them, either.

Most are just power-hungry assholes, though. At least in my experience.

[WindAndConfusion]

I never said or insinuated that anyone here is a moron. 

No, but you did imply that the reason I've had bad experiences with cops is that I didn't have good manners. There are two things wrong with that idea. The first is that I'm always polite to cops; I'll get to the second in a minute.

My lifelong experience gives me a generally positive attitude about cops.  [...] Maybe the cops elsewhere in the country are dicks, but I've dealt with them everywhere from here East into Long Island and South into Florida.  I've yet to find the psycho so often portrayed in films about some victimized group of saps out for their weekly joyride.

I think police just about everywhere are the same. They unconsciously categorize people into two groups, good citizens and dangerous criminals. If you're a good citizen, you'll get a lot of slack even if you do break the law. If you're a dangerous criminal, you can get screwed even if you haven't committed a crime.

Having a bad attitude is a surefire way to get into the second group. Certain clothing will do it, too. Another way is to be very skinny, so you look like you might be a junkie. On the flipside, you can also have too much muscle. If you do find yourself in this second group, a police officer can take hours or days of your time, and hundreds of dollars of your money, even if you're innocent.

That brings me to the second thing wrong with that idea (up above): Why should having a bad attitude be enough to get you in trouble? Why should it be a crime to hurt a police officer's feelings?

I mentioned those two epileptics, earlier. In the letters to the editor, I often read that they deserved it, because they must've been rude or something in order to get arrested in the first place. Basically, people were saying that pissing off a police officer means it's your fault if you die on a concrete floor in a puddle of your own vomit.

I don't like that logic at all.

[Raisa]

more often than not, I don't trust cops.  I know some very nice ones, but majority of the cops I've come across are corrupt, scheming and abusive.

I think police just about everywhere are the same. They unconsciously categorize people into two groups, good citizens and dangerous criminals. If you're a good citizen, you'll get a lot of slack even if you do break the law. If you're a dangerous criminal, you can get screwed even if you haven't committed a crime

Whether you're a good citizen or a dangerous criminal type, if a cop is having a bad day, you can be in for a lot of trouble.  I could say so much on this but the cliche "one gets what he deserves" comes to mind. 

[Pugnate]

I have found this thread very interesting actually. Some very interesting posts. I have nothing to add beyond what everyone said.

[Xessive]

Actually, police never shoot to immobilize. When they make the decision to use deadly force (their gun), then they shoot until the threat is neutralized (dead).

Dang! I thought that was just the secret service!

[Cobra951]

That brings me to the second thing wrong with that idea (up above): Why should having a bad attitude be enough to get you in trouble? Why should it be a crime to hurt a police officer's feelings?

That reminds me of a line from an episode of Barney Miller, an old TV sitcom about a New York police precinct.  I'm paraphrasing here.  Why does the blue whale, the largest animal on Earth, eat the smallest animals in the ocean?  Because that's the way it is, and there's nothing you can do about it.

[gpw11]

Yes, and that's exactly the type of attitude which fosters the advancement and improvement of society as a whole.  Or the exact opposite.  Whatever.

Anyways:

He only had a lack of knowledge of the english language... (10 min. snuff film released today)

This has been an ongoing story for a while here.  Basically, this guy arrives in Vancouver at the airport.  He comes from Poland into Vancouver with the ultimate goal of living with his elderly mother in the interior of British Columbia.  For whatever reason, he ends up lost and stranded in the airport for 10 hours.  Not lost and stranded like he can just leave, lost and stranded like he's in a secure zone and there's no one there that speaks polish (wtf) so he can't get processed into the country. 

As you can imagine, after ten hours of this you might get a little pissed off and irrational.  Maybe you might break some stuff because the fact that this can even happen is just so surreal anything goes.  So what happens then? Security gets called.  Now, this guy isn't a criminal, he backed down from security and calmed down.  And then the police came.  Again, he obeys what they said even though he doesn't speak a word of english, and how is he rewarded?  Tasered.....four times.  Guess who died?

But you're right, it's just the way the system works. Why question it?  He's a big guy, the police might have felt threatened and should he have left the wall on the other side of the room, raised his fists and charged at all four of them, they might not have been able to baton, pepper spray, taser, or physically restrain him. They HAD to taser him while he was against the wall.  Oh, and he was on the ground shaking.  It MIGHT have just been the electricity, but maybe it was him trying to get up. Then what would they do?  They might get hurt.  Might as well taser him again.  Possibly two more times while he lay on the ground. 

A few cops, a bad choice?  A criminal choice.  Confiscating the tape, changing facts in public reports, and not giving the tape back until ordered to by higher courts?  A criminal institution.

How can anyone possibly argue that police should just be trusted to do their job and that only they'd know what level of force was neccesary?  They should be fucking watched like hawks, and at the slightest sign of a break in regulation or law they should be strung up by the balls and made an example to all the other small angry men out there in blue shirts.

And, as per usual tomorrow the papers will be filled with letters defending the police because there's a large section of the population who is so fucking scared of what COULD be out there that they're willing to give up the rights and freedoms of themselves and their peers for a small chance of protection....unless, of course, a cop ever thinks for a second they might have something dangerous in their hand.

[scottws]

The problem is:  who polices the police?  This isn't just an American problem or a Canadian problem.  In fact, many other countries have it far worse, where cops will arrest you if you don't bribe them... that sort of shit.  I've also heard stories of cops in some South American countries being in business with the criminals.  Oh darn, you are a tourist and your rental got jacked?  Pay up to the cops and they will recover the vehicle.

[Cobra951]

gpw, if you have your way, either people will stop being cops, or cops will refuse to act in any controversial situation.  Everything is a matter of balance.  You don't see thousands of proper arrests and exemplary police conduct on the news every day.  You see the one abysmal screwup once a month.  I'm not saying it's OK.  I'm saying knee-jerking all police power and discretion away will have much worse consequences than what this one case led to.

[Pugnate]

The problem is:  who polices the police?  This isn't just an American problem or a Canadian problem.  In fact, many other countries have it far worse, where cops will arrest you if you don't bribe them... that sort of shit.  I've also heard stories of cops in some South American countries being in business with the criminals.  Oh darn, you are a tourist and your rental got jacked?  Pay up to the cops and they will recover the vehicle.

haha... Actually the cops in America/Canada are probably the best in he world.

I am not kidding... most cops here look for opportunities to stop so that they can get some money.