Author Topic: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma  (Read 9295 times)

Offline gpw11

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GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« on: Thursday, November 22, 2007, 07:03:50 PM »
I'm still on the fence with this game.

I've also been looking at a new monitor, and was going to go wide screen, but really the only benefit would be gaming.  I don't know how much of a benefit that even is anyways.  What do you people think?

Offline Pugnate

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GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #1 on: Thursday, November 22, 2007, 11:17:54 PM »
If you watch movies, then that is another plus. But don't go widescreen for anything less than 20.1''.

If you go widescreen at 19'' then you are restricted to a rez of 1440x900, and at such a small size the compromise to go widescreen means you are going to be losing a lot of real estate in the height.

BTW, for info on widescreens, here is what I found the best place on the net to be:

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2049206&enterthread=y

Just check that out. He has a website too.

But once you play games on widescreen, you won't want to go back. It just feels so natural. However you will need a video card with some juice, considering that even if you lower the native rez on a 20-22'' monitor, you are still looking at 1440x900, which is a rez that requires the same power as 1280x1024.

So consider that.

However keep in mind that:

1. Your monitor should be your best piece of equipment, since most gamers keep their monitors for a lot longer than any other piece of hardware. You could upgrade your PC in three years, and take advantage of the larger monitor.

2. On NVIDIA cards you can play at lower resolutions like 1024x768 with black bars around. It isn't as awkward as it sounds, and it allows you to have some versatility with your widescreen.

3. If you plan on watching Blu-Ray or HD-DVD movies on your setup, then most monitors being released today come with HDCP, but you will have to confirm before purchasing.

I have the VX2235 from Viewsonic, and it is brilliant to game on. Oblivion on a 22'' widescreen is a lovely sight.

Offline Jedi

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #2 on: Friday, November 23, 2007, 12:11:19 AM »
I have nothing to add other than that Pug is a very informed authority on graphics cards and screens….

... And it scares me. That is all.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #3 on: Friday, November 23, 2007, 12:43:28 AM »
What I have, and has really worked out well for me, is a Samsung 23" LCD TV with a 1366x768 panel.  That's 16:9 aspect.  The pixel density is less than what you get out of a PC monitor, but it's the correct aspect for consoles and HDTV, unlike those 16:10 PC monitors.  Consoles can't adjust the aspect ratio; only the TV/monitor can do that.  This thing has support for 480i, 480p, 720p and native-res support for PCs.  It does a very good job of scaling when it needs to.  In 4:3 mode, the native res is 1024x768, which I still consider perfect for PC games without widescreen support.  It can take 2 component sources, one S-Video source, one composite, one HDMI, and one PC (VGA), in addition to coax TV input.  The newer ones have to have the HDTV tuners.  Mine only has an NTSC tuner.  It has an audio out, which is where I have my 2.1 Logitechs hooked up.  The internal speakers are functional, but not very good.  There are many adjustments you can make, including backlight intensity (separately from brightness and contrast, which properly affect the LCD elements, not the light).  The picture quality is excellent, and very even.  Viewing angles are exceptional for LCD, something which is sorely lacking in the TN panels used in so many PC monitors.

This works out perfectly for me, since I have limited room.  I have the 360, Wii, Gamecube, and PC hooked up to it right now, and it does a fine job.  I guess it depends on what you want out of your screen.  For multi-purpose, I couldn't find anything better.

Offline gpw11

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #4 on: Friday, November 23, 2007, 12:51:22 AM »
Excellent.  One of the main reasons I've been holding off is that it doesn't fit in my entertainment center/desk thing.  Nothing I couldn't fix with a reciprocal saw, but something that's been holding me back slightly.  The other thing is I know nothing about LCDs in general, so I'll definitely check that thread out.

IF I do go wide screen, however, chances are it will be 19".  Any more and I think it will take up too much valuable desk real estate and hinder my ability to get work done.

Offline scottws

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #5 on: Friday, November 23, 2007, 01:21:39 PM »
There is something with LCD panels too.  There are all kinds of different types of LCD panels and they are most definitely not created equal.

Pug helped me out here with this too.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #6 on: Friday, November 23, 2007, 01:54:46 PM »
lol Jedi... I actually didn't know anything about LCDs uptill a year or so ago when I was buying my own, and had to do some research. As for video cards, I just enjoy reading about that stuff.

Like Scottws said, not all LCD panels are equal... so do your research and you will be fine. That first post in that link I posted is updated regularly, and is an excellent source of info.

Beware of some of the tactics some of these companies use though. The Samsung 226BW is a classic example of why you need to be careful. 

When the 226BW came out, it was rated as one of the best 22'' LCD monitor ever. It got rave reviews across the net, and an immense reputation amongst buyers. But then Samsung just replaced the LCD panel with something much cheaper, yet continued selling without changing the brand name/

Suddenly people who were expecting to get the same quality as their friends, were getting monitors with massive backlight bleeding, major ghosting, color inconsistencies etc. (If you don't know what those terms mean, check out the anandtech link)

These people started posting images of their displays on the net, and everyone started comparing notes. It turned out that after getting their product a reputation, Samsung started subcontracting the production of these monitors to cheaper sources.

Initially it was some European country, and the results were worse, but often fixable. You could even tell where the monitor was made, by unscrewing the back and reading the label.

The first and best monitors were labeled "S".. and then the slightly worse ones were labeled "A"... finally the really crappy ones were labeled "C", and were made in China!

I've seen the pictures of the various displays on the net, and the differences are significant, and enough to make the buyer extremely upset.

Eventually Samsung stopped the labels after they realized that people had discovered the truth. 

Just do a quick search on google for "Samsung 226BW different versions"

Here is the first hit, which sums up the sentiment for the monitor nicely:

http://www.epinions.com/content_402328686212

Quote
Buying this monitor is like buying a pack of baseball cards, because you don’t know what’s inside until you open it up. Keep reading and you’ll see what I mean.

I recently purchased a new HP desktop PC and needed a monitor to go along with it. At the store where I bought them both, they were offering a $140 rebate for buying both a PC and Monitor. It happened to be the late evening on the very last day of the rebate offering, so I jumped at the offer. I know I could have saved maybe $20-40 ordering this same monitor online, but then I would have had to wait for it to ship and not been able to use my new desktop, plus the rebate made the package deal a good one. After shopping around the store for what was available in stock, I opted for the Samsung SyncMaster 226bw 22” Widescreen LCD Monitor. That was three weeks ago.

When I got home and hooked everything up, I immediately noticed that the monitor had an odd flicker to it. The flicker seemed to come and go at times, and was noticeably worse when looking at a full screen of one solid color, like the black background on a website. At the time, I was connecting the monitor to the PC using VGA cables going to the onboard video on the motherboard. This monitor also has a DVI connection and includes a cable, but I wouldn’t use that for another week.

I will say that I’m not entirely unhappy with this monitor, as the display is still incredibly bright and the colors are vibrant. It is supposed to have a 2ms refresh rate, which is incredibly fast, and I will admit that I haven’t seen any kind of ghosting problem while playing fast-paced 3D games. Even so, that whole flicker thing just bugs me. The monitor only supports a 60hz refresh rate, and there is no way to change it. In the past, when I’ve seen flicker problems on a monitor, usually adjusting the refresh rate will fix it, but that’s not an option on this monitor.

I figured the flicker was just part of the newness of the monitor and it would go away after it warmed up, but it did not. I tried all I could to adjust the video settings every possible way that I could, and although I did make the flicker less noticeable, it was still noticeable. I then decided to search Google for this model monitor and see if anyone else had similar flicker problems. A search of Samsung 226bw flicker yielded 11,200 results. Yikes! Apparently, I wasn’t the only one to have this problem.

By this time, the store had already closed and it was too late to take it back that night. I also was stuck in the predicament of invalidating my rebate since if I exchanged the monitor for another one, it would show up on a different receipt. Part of the rebate rules specified that they must have been purchased together and show on the same receipt. If I had taken this monitor back the next day, I ran the risk of not getting the rebate, and then I would have really been mad. So I was stuck with this monitor, otherwise I’d have to eat $140 in rebates and my whole PC/Monitor package wouldn’t have been that great a deal.

Since I planned on upgrading the video card, and that new video card would utilize the DVI connection, I decided to wait and see if that made an improvement. A week later, when I put an MSI Nvidia Geforce 8400 GS video card in the PC and connected the DVI cables, the flicker problem was drastically reduced. However, it still flickers from time to time. It’s not nearly as noticeable or as often as before, but it still happens, and it still aggravates the hell out of me.

While researching the flicker problem on Google, I figured out why some people hate this monitor and complain about problems like flickering while other people say it is the greatest gaming monitor on the market and there is none better. What I uncovered made me burn-the-factory-down mad at Samsung.

Here’s what I uncovered: There are three different versions of this monitor on the market. Not one or two, but three. These three are not alike, either. The box looks the same. The price is the same. The supposed features are the same, but the monitor inside is not the same. The only way to tell which one of the three you got is to open the box and look at the back panel of the monitor to read the serial number. When you look on the back, in the upper right hand corner of the silvery white sticker with the model and serial number, you will see either an A, S, or C.

Samsung’s first line of 226bw monitors were excellent and got rave reviews. When a company releases a product, it’s that first line-up that gets reviewed in technical magazines and the like, because they send free products to a lot of places for review. After Samsung got all the good reviews, they outsourced the manufacturing of this monitor to other companies in order to make cheaper models. These cheaper models don’t work quite as well as the original line-up, and are essentially cheaper knock-off models of the superior original. There is a link at the bottom of this review that will provide you with all the details on how much different the A, S, and C models can be, and the differences are very noticeable.

The model that I ended up getting was the C panel, which isn't even made by Samsung. The C panel is usually what you will find at most retail stores, like the one where I bought it. The C panels are made by a Chinese company called Chi Mei.

What Samsung did with this monitor was very dirty business. They changed manufacturers and allowed someone else to produce a cheaper version of the same monitor, but Samsung kept the same model number and everything. This means two people could buy a Samsung 226bw monitor in a store and one might get the good Samsung-made one while the other person might get the cheaper knock-off. Both people will pay the same price, but they won’t be getting the same quality monitor. This kind of thing sometimes happens on eBay where unscrupulous people mislabel certain computer products and hope nobody will notice, but I can’t believe a major company like Samsung would do such a thing. Samsung should have at least put some kind of label outside the box to let customers know what is inside.

In the past, I once returned a 42” Samsung Plasma TV because the picture quality was so horrible on it that I couldn’t stand ‘getting used to it’ considering what I paid for it. It looked fine showing the cartoon in the store, but it couldn’t render skin tones worth a flip. Furthermore, just this past weekend my two month old Samsung cell phone screen broke. After what happened with this monitor, I will never buy another Samsung product again. What they pulled with the SyncMaster 226bw is inexcusable. If you really wanted to get into the legality of it all, this amounts to false advertising in that they are touting one product while selling you another.

The bottom line here is that Samsung cheated their customers with the SyncMaster 226bw monitor. Don’t take the gamble on this monitor. Just buy from a brand you can trust. Boycott Samsung!

The folks at BeHardware.com have done an extensive review of the three different model (A, S, and C) Samsung 226bw monitors, and you can read their findings at the link below.
http://www.behardware.com/articles/667-1/samsung-226bw-series-a-s-verdict.html

Interesting eh?

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #7 on: Friday, November 23, 2007, 02:13:28 PM »
Well, that scratches Samsung off my list, even though I currently own one that I'm pretty happy with (SD LCD, 940b).  How is Panasonic these days?  I've always trusted them with TVs and CD players and such.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Pugnate

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #8 on: Friday, November 23, 2007, 02:47:54 PM »
Well their products after and before that were very well received. But that incident just scares me.

Panasonic aren't very good for LCD monitors from what I've read.

What size are you looking or Que? I've read the Westinghouse monitors are really nice if you are looking for something really big.

Cobra, the last time you guys had a discussion on the aspect ratios, I missed out as I had a 19'' LCD back then. So why is it that LCD TVs are 16:9 while monitors are 16:10? What's the point?

edit:

More on panel lottery from that link I posted:

Quote
Appendix A. A Few Words About "Panel Lotteries"
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Several manufacturers, including Dell and Samsung, have played the panel "bait and switch" game thinking no one would notice. A controversial practice called a "panel lottery" by others, they will originally release a good panel (for reviewers) and switch to an inferior one later on. Dell first put an S-IPS in their 2007WFP and later switched to an S-PVA, whose performance was deemed very low compared to the S-IPS. Samsung originally was making "S" (Samsung) TN panels for their 226BW, until they outsourced their production to AU Optronics ("A"), CMO ("C"), and CPT ("P"). The A, C, and P panels performed poorly at the default color settings. All of their colors were equal after calibration, although the C panel had more issues with response time. Since many folks don't own a colorimeter, they will end up with a panel that can't display colors with the same fidelity as the original "S" panel. Later, both Dell and Samsung began hiding the panel information from the service menu and the back panel.

In an interview, Samsung stated that after April 1st they would release only "S" panels (in France). Three Frenchmen discovered 2 A panels and 1 C panel with their 226BWs manufactured after April 1.

Dell and Samsung claim that they did this because of stock problems. Well, if they didn't have enough stock why did they continue selling it under the same model name? It obviously makes it frustrating for users who try to pick the right panel. It doesn't help that the "alternate panel" often falls way behind the original.

HP also has switched to AMVA in its HP LP2065 model in some cases, but at least they registered the change with the FCC in publicly available format unlike Dell/Samsung who really kept it under the covers. HP did keep a label on their box also indicating the panel.

The main purpose of this section was to raise awareness of this problem, and hopefully send a message to the vendors involved that the panel-switching needs to stop.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #9 on: Friday, November 23, 2007, 03:08:57 PM »
It doesn't surprise me at all that Dell would do something like this.  Of all the companies I hate, they make the top 5.  Samsung doesn't actually surprise me much either.  It seems they generally do better, but there's some other shady stuff I remember reading in the past about them.

So Panasonic isn't good for LCDs?  Hmm.  I'm not looking for anything huge.  It's really more for Julia.  I'm not even sure if we're going to start with a widescreen monitor for the PC and the 360, or a widescreen TV for everything else.  We can't really even afford either one as well as I'd like, so the monitor would be more likely... but we also kind of want to replace her TV, which is getting old now.  Ugh.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Pugnate

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #10 on: Friday, November 23, 2007, 03:16:00 PM »
WHOOPS! Sorry mate, I got confused. I was thinking of Phillips, that apparently have mostly poor LCDs.

I actually have no idea about Panasonic.

As for your LCD dilemma, I suppose you could always get a decent 22'' LCD and a TV tuner card? That's what I have in my office, and it does an OK job as a substitute.

What is your budget?

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #11 on: Friday, November 23, 2007, 03:34:36 PM »
Ah, yeah, that doesn't surprise me about Phillips either.  I've had rather bad luck with them.

Budget is whatever I can find at the cheapest level that isn't going to break or explode or somehow screw me up.  Doesn't need to be super huge.  A 22" or something is probably about right, something desk-size for gaming.  And a TV tuner card isn't useful, because the reason we'd get a widescreen TV isn't just for TV, it would essentially be for TV and all the other consoles that aren't the 360.  Plus we don't watch stuff in this room because it isn't very comfortable for Julia.  She does more stuff in the living room, and she also tends to drag consoles out there if she's going to be playing longer sessions.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Cobra951

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #12 on: Friday, November 23, 2007, 08:39:39 PM »
Cobra, the last time you guys had a discussion on the aspect ratios, I missed out as I had a 19'' LCD back then. So why is it that LCD TVs are 16:9 while monitors are 16:10? What's the point?

I have no idea why the 2 standards are not the same.  (The PC standard is called WXGA.)  All I know is that 16:10 is noticeably different from 16:9, and showing 16:9 content on computer monitors without letterboxing will be obviously wrong to me.  Use a good picture of the full moon or a basketball as a test.  A sphere will always project as a circle, not an ovoid.

I recently read a news story about Samsung being in some corruption scandal in S. Korea.  That wasn't the kicker.  The truly remarkable thing about it was that corruption is the normal mode of operations there.  Everyone is involved in bribery and other nasties, from the government on down.  It was a delicate situation because Samsung *is* the economy.  So sanctions can't go too far.  Weird, or maybe not.  Maybe it's just a more obvious example of how things run everywhere else anymore, even America.

Edit: Found a source pretty quickly

Offline Pugnate

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #13 on: Friday, November 23, 2007, 11:13:40 PM »
I was thinking about this last night before going to bed. I have a feeling what happened with the 226BW goes on all the time, and other companies aren't stupid enough to change the labels. I have a feeling all of these companies do it on some level.

Like for example take eVGA.

They have that policy where you can upgrade any recently bought product to something newly released.

So if I bought an 8800GTX, I can upgrade to a 9800GTX if it is released within 90 days (I think) of my purchase.

My point is what the hell do they do with that 8800? Do they test it and resell it as new? If so, that doesn't sound fair.

BTW, I had a look at that link Cobra. That is mind blowing.

Offline Xessive

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #14 on: Saturday, November 24, 2007, 07:22:17 AM »
Yeah, I've got a Samsung 226BW. Beautiful monitor. I haven't run into any major issues with it. I'm not even sure what panel it is, but I haven't come across any relevant conflicts as of yet.

Offline scottws

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #15 on: Saturday, November 24, 2007, 09:17:13 AM »
I have no idea why the 2 standards are not the same.  (The PC standard is called WXGA.)  All I know is that 16:10 is noticeably different from 16:9, and showing 16:9 content on computer monitors without letterboxing will be obviously wrong to me.  Use a good picture of the full moon or a basketball as a test.  A sphere will always project as a circle, not an ovoid.

I recently read a news story about Samsung being in some corruption scandal in S. Korea.  That wasn't the kicker.  The truly remarkable thing about it was that corruption is the normal mode of operations there.  Everyone is involved in bribery and other nasties, from the government on down.  It was a delicate situation because Samsung *is* the economy.  So sanctions can't go too far.  Weird, or maybe not.  Maybe it's just a more obvious example of how things run everywhere else anymore, even America.

Edit: Found a source pretty quickly
I heard about that last week and I was just amazed.  What is it with Asian companies?  Samsung makes cell phones, hard drives, TVs, monitors, optical drives, heavy equipment, the kicker: container ships?  Why are Asian companies always huge conglomerates that make everything?

Offline Pugnate

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #16 on: Saturday, November 24, 2007, 01:19:13 PM »
Yeah, I've got a Samsung 226BW. Beautiful monitor. I haven't run into any major issues with it. I'm not even sure what panel it is, but I haven't come across any relevant conflicts as of yet.

They said it is simple enough to tell. You can slide open the back and it should say. "S" are the originals and no longer in production. "A"s followed later and had some faults that could be corrected with a few steps. The "C"s were the worst.

However if you have gotten a good panel, and are experiencing no problems, then the 226BW is one of the best 22'' out there.

Quote
Budget is whatever I can find at the cheapest level that isn't going to break or explode or somehow screw me up.  Doesn't need to be super huge.  A 22" or something is probably about right, something desk-size for gaming.  And a TV tuner card isn't useful, because the reason we'd get a widescreen TV isn't just for TV, it would essentially be for TV and all the other consoles that aren't the 360.  Plus we don't watch stuff in this room because it isn't very comfortable for Julia.  She does more stuff in the living room, and she also tends to drag consoles out there if she's going to be playing longer sessions.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2049206&enterthread=y

There are several top 10 lists under "Hardcore gaming", "Multimedia", "Office work" etc on that link. Prices are given as well.

From what I've read the best 22'' monitors are the infamous Samsung 226BW, the Viewsonic VX2255wmg and the LG226.

All three can be had for around $300, and are really tremendous value. Gamers all over the net seem to love those three, but they all come with their problems. The Samsung is a bit of a panel lottery, though if you can find a good one like Xessive did, then well done.

The VX2255 came out recently and received better reviews than the 226BW, which is amazing because the 226BW was the king in 22'' monitors. However the Viewsonics have had some DVI problems, that either show immediately, or don't show at all. Solution is to find a good seller, so that you can exchange without questions. The VX2255 also has HDCP and a neato webcam.

The LG has been also well received, and I am not aware of any problems.

I am sure there are other monitors in that range that are good, but those three seem to be the most talked about.

Try reader reviews on newegg as well.

Oh and the one Scottws got was the NEC MultiSync 20WMGX2. This is the monitor I initially wanted, but was impossible to find here. Gamers seemed to swear by this LCD, but it was expensive at $500+ for a 20'' monitor. Recently it has gone down to $400, which is high considering the size. But you can imagine how good it must be for them to be able to sell a 20''  monitor at such a price.

Quote
I heard about that last week and I was just amazed.  What is it with Asian companies?  Samsung makes cell phones, hard drives, TVs, monitors, optical drives, heavy equipment, the kicker: container ships?  Why are Asian companies always huge conglomerates that make everything?

In Asia the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. That might seem a bit of a cliche, but it is true for this part of the world.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #17 on: Saturday, November 24, 2007, 01:40:08 PM »
It's all about the panel.  When I was shopping around, went through the bad experience with the Acer 22-incher, and finally did a lot of digging, I realized that every 1680x1050 22" LCD monitor used a TN panel.  This is the worst LCD display tech generally available.  All the bleedy, inconsistent, narrow-angle displays you see are TNs.  It doesn't surprise me that Scott's monitor is so much more expensive.  It's not 22 inches, so it doesn't have to be TN.  I don't think you can get 20-some quality LCD inches for under $300 even now, but it's been a while since I did any digging, so I might be wrong.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #18 on: Saturday, November 24, 2007, 01:51:45 PM »
Right.

The only advantage of those TN panels is that they are incredibly fast, so no ghosting. But while they are good for gaming, they lose out on multimedia.

Also does anyone have eye strain issues with LCDs using high gloss screens?

Offline scottws

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #19 on: Saturday, November 24, 2007, 02:16:33 PM »
Yeah, I like my monitor.  It's very high gloss and very bright, but I don't have trouble with it in terms of eye strain.  It's an AS-IPS panel, which I guess is the very best LCD panel type right now, hence it's expense.

I remember paying around $600 for it.

Offline iPPi

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #20 on: Saturday, November 24, 2007, 06:21:03 PM »
I have a HP 21" Widescreen LCD and it's a really good screen and a native resolution of 1680x1050.  I've had no problems with it.

I also have a Dell XPS M1210, which is a 12.1" widescreen laptop. 

Overally, you can't go wrong with a widescreen for either gaming or productivity.  It is extra workspace if you are into productivity, and more and more games support widescreen resolutions now, or usually offer a way to hack it so that the game can be displayed in a widescreen resolution. 

Cost is the only thing that can be deterring.  Though it is now undoubtedly cheaper to pick up a widescreen, my 21" widescreen retailed for about $800 when I bought it.  Luckily I had a $500 gift card so it was really only a $300 hit to my wallet.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #21 on: Saturday, November 24, 2007, 06:46:11 PM »
Where the hell do you people get this money?  I want to know.  Because I need it.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline gpw11

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #22 on: Saturday, November 24, 2007, 07:52:15 PM »
My expenses dropped by about $1000 a month, so that helps.  It also helps that I switched jobs and no longer directly sub-contract, so I have a guaranteed income rather then one that fluctuates meaning that when I have a lot of money I'll put it aside for when things dry up a bit.

Anyways, the more I think about it, I might not go wide screen.  It would fit my space easier, which is huge for school, and I could probably get something of higher quality with my aprrox. $200 budget I set aside for it.   Does that last part make any sense?


Offline Pugnate

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #23 on: Saturday, November 24, 2007, 10:44:08 PM »
Quote
My expenses dropped by about $1000 a month, so that helps. 

If you don't mind me asking, how the hell does one manage that?

BTW, I agree with you not going widescreen. 19'' WS monitors look meh.

And yes it makes sense to spend $200 on a good normal monitor rather than a cheap ws monitor.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #24 on: Saturday, November 24, 2007, 11:04:17 PM »
I have a HP 21" Widescreen LCD and it's a really good screen and a native resolution of 1680x1050.  I've had no problems with it.

. . .

Cost is the only thing that can be deterring.  Though it is now undoubtedly cheaper to pick up a widescreen, my 21" widescreen retailed for about $800 when I bought it.

Again, it's the 22" 1680x1050 that was invariably a cheap TN about 10 months ago, not the 21".  The prices were right around the $300 mark for the 22s.  The $500-$800 range indicates better LCD tech, and it was not unusual for 20-21" monitors to be twice the price of the 22s.

Offline gpw11

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #25 on: Thursday, November 29, 2007, 02:35:07 PM »
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=18705&vpn=LS20HAWCBQ%2FXAA&manufacture=Samsung&promoid=1078

thinking of this.  Apparently, it's pretty much wide screen or northing.  The prices for standard are a little artificially inflated from what someone just told me (I don't know if it's true, but they don't seem any cheaper), and I don't have enough desk real estate for anything over 20 inches.

The reviews seem good, and no one is complaining about the Samsung panel switch on this model. The thing is I have no idea about contrast ratios and all that jazz.  Is downscaling the resolution a problem with LCDs?  I mean, I'm not going to be able to play new games at the native res, but will that make them look like garbage?

Offline Cobra951

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #26 on: Thursday, November 29, 2007, 03:19:12 PM »
That strictly depends on the quality of the monitor's scaling algorithm.  You can also have your card do it, I think.  My ancient GF 5900 gives me the choice of allowing the card to scale lower resolutions to the native resolution, so I can't imagine that option not being there on newer cards.

Did you see this review?  It seems positive overall, and does mention that it has an 8-bit panel, not a cheap 6-bit (if Samsung can still be trusted not to pull a switcheroo).  For the money, you're not going to do better, I don't think.

Edit: The contrast ratio without processing is usually in the mid/high 100s.  That looks about average.  Let's not kid ourselves.  The best CRTs have 15,000-1 contrast ratios.  The switch to flat panels is not all rosy.

Offline gpw11

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #27 on: Thursday, November 29, 2007, 05:12:33 PM »
Interesting.  There is a Samsung 206BW with a 3000:1 contrast ratio, but it seems like that one does suffer from the whole "panel lottery" thing. 


Offline Cobra951

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #28 on: Thursday, November 29, 2007, 07:31:20 PM »
LCD contrast ratios in the multiple thousands almost surely imply active processing, meaning they're not real.  The problem with LCD is that you can't have true black because the light is on full-time, and LCD elements can't block all light from passing.  The next improvement in black levels was supposed to come from smart backlights, made up of a grid of LEDs.  I'm not sure where that is now, if anywhere.

Edit:
Quote
Contrast Ratio   800:1 (DCR 3000:1)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001095

DCR is dynamic contrast ratio (i.e., some sort of processing).

Offline gpw11

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #29 on: Thursday, November 29, 2007, 08:06:58 PM »
Ah, ok.  Roger.  I'll probably pick this up then.  Honestly, I could pour over this kind of thing for weeks and never come to a decision, so I might as well jump on one that seems good right now.

Thanks for the help.

Offline scottws

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #30 on: Thursday, November 29, 2007, 08:43:22 PM »
Yeah, there really is no "best LCD monitor."  They all have pros and cons.  For instance, I mentioned that my NEC 20WMGX2 has the AS-IPS panel, which is awesome.  But S-IPS and AS-IPS panels don't have the best response rate.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #31 on: Monday, December 03, 2007, 11:22:03 PM »

Offline Cobra951

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #32 on: Monday, December 03, 2007, 11:44:17 PM »
"Waiting for i.l.cnn.net..."

Hangs there forever.  That's Firefox.  IE doesn't even tell me that much.

Offline Xessive

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 02:28:30 AM »
Quote
Samsung chief faces turmoil again

SEOUL, South Korea (AP) -- Lee Kun-hee, chairman of Samsung Electronics, has been no stranger to scandal as head of South Korea's largest company and the huge conglomerate it anchors.

 And he has emerged each time, even from a bribery conviction, relatively unscathed.

But new allegations -- chiefly, that the conglomerate maintained a $215 million slush fund used to pay off influential figures -- have the 65-year-old tycoon up against a wall instead of celebrating two decades of corporate success.

In addition to an investigation by prosecutors, who carried out raids Friday at offices of two Samsung affiliates, an independent counsel approved by President Roh Moo-hyun under pressure from lawmakers is set to probe the Samsung Group, which spans about 60 businesses.

Such turmoil inevitably focuses attention on Lee, whose leadership has made Samsung Electronics a top global company. But it also raises questions about the continued power of the family-run conglomerates, called chaebol, that have led South Korea's growth the last half-century.

Samsung is perceived to play such a pivotal role in the domestic economy and to have such social and even political influence that South Koreans sometimes call their country the "Republic of Samsung."

Samsung has vociferously denied the allegations, aired last month by a former legal officer for the conglomerate, that it used questionable accounting practices to create the slush fund to bribe prosecutors, judges and lawmakers to win influence.

 Kim Yong-chul, once Samsung's top lawyer and previously a prosecutor, also claimed Lee's wife purchased "Happy Tears," a painting by the late pop artist Roy Lichtenstein, with slush fund money -- a claim Samsung also denied.

The investigations are expected to take months. When asked if Lee had any public comment about Kim's allegations, a Samsung spokesman said the chairman himself had made no statements and referred to the group's written denials.

Lee took over Samsung 20 years ago Saturday -- on December 1, 1987 -- after the death of his father, the conglomerate's founder. In those days, it was mostly known for mass-producing cheap electronics: Quantity and low prices trumped quality and design.

Fed up, Lee summoned top executives to a meeting in 1993 and called for a transformation.

"Change everything but your wife and kids," he exhorted them.

Lee is credited with almost single-handedly turning Samsung Electronics Co. into a tech powerhouse.

"Making and selling faulty products is like producing and spreading poison," he wrote in 1994.

Now, Samsung leads the world in sales of sleek flat-screen TVs, among other products. This year it displaced Motorola Inc. as the No. 2 seller of mobile phones.

Experts attribute much of that success to Lee's strategic vision and grasp of technology and to a South Korean business culture in which powerful executives are particularly influential.

Books on Lee, who spent part of his childhood in Japan, describe him as a loner. As a youth he liked to take products apart, analyze their components and put them back together.

He graduated from Tokyo's elite Waseda University and then received an MBA from George Washington University in Washington, D.C.

"He has been very aggressive, going ahead of the market, in product development, in technology development and also I think human resources management," said Jang Ha-sung, dean of Korea University's business school.

Lee's business resume has at least one blemish. A foray into the auto industry with Samsung Motors in the 1990s ended with the venture being sold to Renault SA of France.

Samsung and the half dozen or so other major chaebol in South Korea are credited with helping propel the country's economy, struggling five decades ago, to an industrial showcase today. But their opaque ownership structure, in which a wealthy family traditionally exerts control via a complex web of cross-shareholdings, is seen as a hotbed of corruption.

Kim Joongi, a professor of law at Seoul's Yonsei University, said Samsung Electronics will continue to do well and noted an overall trend toward more openness among chaebol. But he said questions remain about how they're run.

"If you have one person absolutely controlling an entity, then abuses of power will inevitably occur," said Kim.

Both Kim and Korea University's Jang have pushed for improvements in governance at Samsung and other conglomerates.

Lee, a former amateur wrestler and now a member of the International Olympic Committee, was convicted in 1996 with other chaebol leaders for bribing Roh Tae-woo, an ex-general who served as South Korean president from 1988-1993. Lee's prison sentence was suspended, so he avoided jail.

In 2005, Lee, a senior Samsung executive and a former newspaper publisher were investigated over suspicions they colluded to embezzle money for bribes and for donations to candidates in the 1997 presidential election. But prosecutors concluded there was insufficient evidence for embezzlement and the statute of limitations on bribery had expired.

That probe highlighted the often complex family ties among South Korea's business and political elite. Hong Seok-hyun, the former newspaper publisher, is Lee's brother-in-law. He stepped down from his position as South Korea's ambassador to the U.S. during the scandal.

Some say traditional fears that major change at Samsung would harm South Korea mean Lee will probably be safe, no matter what the outcome of the probes.

"Thanks to public concern that Samsung must not be shaken, the group will escape the worst," Yang Sang-hoon, a member of the editorial board at the Chosun Ilbo newspaper, wrote last week.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 10:11:05 AM »
Thanks!  The link finally works for me too.

This is really just a continuation of the same story.  It seems to me that this is the reality of doing business in South Korea, and if so, then they should stop the two-faced posturing already.  If Samsung couldn't have gotten to be Samsung without slush funds for bribes, propping S. Korea up with it, then don't act all hurt and indignant about it now.  Change the corrupt government, then there won't be any need for this.  It doesn't bother me.  Bait and switch on LCD panels, now that does bother me.

The new tidbit I got from the story is this:

Quote
Lee took over Samsung 20 years ago Saturday -- on December 1, 1987 -- after the death of his father, the conglomerate's founder. In those days, it was mostly known for mass-producing cheap electronics: Quantity and low prices trumped quality and design.

Fed up, Lee summoned top executives to a meeting in 1993 and called for a transformation.

"Change everything but your wife and kids," he exhorted them.

Lee is credited with almost single-handedly turning Samsung Electronics Co. into a tech powerhouse.

"Making and selling faulty products is like producing and spreading poison," he wrote in 1994.

Now, Samsung leads the world in sales of sleek flat-screen TVs, among other products. This year it displaced Motorola Inc. as the No. 2 seller of mobile phones.

So that's why the transformation.  I remember very well the days when nobody who cared about electronics would be caught dead with a Samsung product.  Worst rep in the business.

Offline gpw11

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #35 on: Thursday, December 20, 2007, 10:40:40 PM »
So, I got the one I mentioned earlier in this thread, and it's awesome, but a bit hard to get used to.  For one thing, I'm apparently used to a darker monitor now and everything seems too bright (although it's not).  The other is the image quality not being up to CRT standards, which is what I was told to expect.  To be fair, it's not far off, but I can see a bit of ghosting (or motion blur) in one application and it kind of gets to me. I imagine it just takes some getting used to.

Apart from that, it's awesome.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #36 on: Thursday, December 20, 2007, 10:46:07 PM »
It probably is too bright if it's hurting your eyes.  Do you have a backlight control on that, independent of the normal brightness control?  If you do, you can tone down the backlight and then play with brightness and contrast.  You want good whites but without pain.  I have my backlight set to minimum brightness, and it works so much better for me than the default magnesium beam into my retinas.  (Samsung calls that energy saving settings.  The higher the setting, the lower the backlight brightness.)

Offline gpw11

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Re: GPW's widescreen gaming dilemma
« Reply #37 on: Thursday, December 20, 2007, 10:53:36 PM »
Interesting.  I shall consult my manual.