Topic: Fable 2 (X360) -> Removed from Xbox.com & Games on Demand [12/3/2012]

[MysterD]

NEW - 12/3/2012
Joystiq -> Fable 2 (X360) removed from XBox.com & Microsoft Games On Demand.

OLD:
Eurogamer - Molyneux talks about Fable 2 and the tons of issues and problems he felt the game had.
FREE Fable 1/2 Mini-Soundtrack, go to this post in this thread - click to go to my post on the free 6-track Fable 1/2 Mini-Soundtrack!
GameSpot -> Preview for Fable 2


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT:
I just watched the keynote video on Gamespot w/ PM's keynote, to see what this last tidbit G-Spot mentioned really is all about and driving towards actually is all about -- with one "action" key.

Looks like PM wants the game's fight scenes to look and play out more like a "movie" would -- where in the movies, they use all of the pieces of the environment to their own advantage. Your swing of a sword would be different in a small corridor as opposed to a big corridor. And fighting on the stairs would be different, too. And your sword can get stuck in the bannister of a staircase, if you miss the swing. If you're near a bottle, you use that as a weapon. You can use the chandelier to swing and attack, if you're near it and hit the "action" key. If you are near a chair, which is standing, hit "action" and he'll pick it up and swing it or throw it -- depending on how close or far away the enemy is. If a chair is down, and you hit "action," he'll kick it at the enemy.

And, his other point was he wants combat to be realistic -- that if you swing a sword and it actually connects, it'll hurt someone big time, where body parts can even possibly be chopped off in actual battle. He even uses Kill Bill Volume 1's Crazy 88 scene as the example, saying that death should and can be reached with ONE swing in combat. And he said w/ "boss fights," the point of it won't be to hit that boss 500 times, but to actually get through their parry and defenses somehow....like they do in the movies....

[Xessive]

Sweet

[MysterD]

Sweet

Yes, it does sound pretty cool.

Also, PM mentions that he wants to try and do away w/ GUI's, as well....

I do reccommend that video, if you want to see what kind of interesting innovations PM has up his sleeves for Fable 2....

[Xessive]

I'm downloading it now. From what I've about Fable 2 so far I'm really anticipating it.

[MysterD]

I'm downloading it now. From what I've about Fable 2 so far I'm really anticipating it.

I just have to say that the keynote video is quite interesting, for the combat side and all. That demo sequence at the bar w/ the "bar fight" -- unfinished and all, just looks very interesting b/c we are seeing so much interaction w/ the whole entire environment, using anything and everything in the surrounding environment pretty much as a weapon. I really like what I see for combat on-screen, from the looks of that and all.

I wonder how magic is going to handled and all....

And if we will get "character sheets" and whatnot....



 

[MysterD]

More Fable 2 notes, but from GameSpy:
http://xbox360.gamespy.com/xbox-360/fable-2/736418p1.html

Molyneux also hopes to expand on the property ownership elements in the original Fable in a very big way -- he intends to make nothing short of every building in the entire game world purchasable by your character. Habitations, castles and keeps, even churches will be available for you to own, and each will bring with them unique game elements. If you're lord of a castle, for instance, your subjects will express their fealty to you, quite possibly paying you taxes and showering you with material tributes.

Oh man......that sounds pretty sweet.

Storyline spoilers ahead....

(click to show/hide)

The game starts on something of a similar vein as its predecessor. You begin life as a child of a gender of your choosing, and rest assured, your beginnings are humble. The game's very intro sequence will emphasize this. You'll see a bird flying through a lush, idyllic countryside, eventually making its way to a densely populated city. Upon flying over a crowd, the point of view changes: it goes from the bird, to one of its droppings -- one that lands squarely on the head of your character. According to Molyneux, this is meant to underscore just how low the social stratum you occupy is. After all, how better to appreciate all the power and glory you'll eventually amass than by starting out in the most humble of circumstances?

Just as with its predecessor, you'll acquire status and power by adventuring, eventually growing into the role of a bona fide (anti?) hero. Naturally, a person of such stature is likely to attract the attention of the opposite sex, and just like in the original Fable, there will be game elements built around this. According to Molyneux, however, Lionhead will be taking things a step further by introducing the concept of unconditional love. In Fable 2, regardless of how vile a person you are, there will also be at least a couple of people who love you unconditionally -- your children and your sister. Your kids will greet you with open arms as you return from lengthy odysseys, striving to emulate you in all the most flattering ways. Your sister, meanwhile, well, she gets taken from you at the story's outset by the game's antagonist, and from the sounds of it, a large part of your character's motivation will be finding the man who took her, and exacting vengeance.

As it happens, the man's name is Lucian. Molyneux wasn't forthcoming with very many details, but he did say that he was intent on building a 500-mile tower for some nefarious purpose. Apparently, you have a choice when it comes to the tower in that you can opt to take control when the time comes. To what end remains a mystery.

EDIT.

This link is worth noting b/c of the statement below:
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/736/736381p1.html

Fable 2 also will deliver a cutscene-free game, Molyneux explained. "Cutscenes are last generation. There will be no cutscenes in Fable 2."

[Xessive]

I like a lot of the ideas Molyneux is bring ing up.. But I get the feeling he's never played Bushido Blade or Shenmue A lot of the "swords are sharp" stuff he was talking about is pretty much how Bushido Blade handled it: fatal hits and minor wounds all depend on how you hit your opponent.

The environment based combat is all situational, but it has to be universal and fast-paced as well. I'm sure they'll manage it without limiting the player to what they think the player should be doing. There have been games with the "one and only action button" and half the time the character does shit I don't want him to do. For example, with the chandalier sequence, what if I didn't want my character to use the chandalier? What if I wanted to lunge at the opponent? Or what it there was a chair right there too, and I wanted to kick it instead of using the chandalier? I just hate automatic stuff that assumes what I want to do.. Either way I'm sure Molyneux will figure it out. I like his reasoning and his outlook on the combat system.

It's pretty much what I've been questioning for a while in games. Except in ninja games which seem to maintain the fact that swords are quite fatal

[MysterD]

I like a lot of the ideas Molyneux is bring ing up.. But I get the feeling he's never played Bushido Blade or Shenmue A lot of the "swords are sharp" stuff he was talking about is pretty much how Bushido Blade handled it: fatal hits and minor wounds all depend on how you hit your opponent.

The environment based combat is all situational, but it has to be universal and fast-paced as well. I'm sure they'll manage it without limiting the player to what they think the player should be doing. There have been games with the "one and only action button" and half the time the character does shit I don't want him to do. For example, with the chandalier sequence, what if I didn't want my character to use the chandalier? What if I wanted to lunge at the opponent?

I dunno' about this "one button" idea.

Maybe there should be a key for "character action" -- where you can use your sword, hands, or what have you for normal attacks....
...while there's another key for "environmental attacks" where you interact w/ an object in the world -- such as kicking a chair, pickin up a bottle to then throw it, swinging on a chandelier, etc etc.

Or what it there was a chair right there too, and I wanted to kick it instead of using the chandalier? I just hate automatic stuff that assumes what I want to do.. Either way I'm sure Molyneux will figure it out. I like his reasoning and his outlook on the combat system.

It's pretty much what I've been questioning for a while in games.

PM sounds like he's on the right track...
...but, I don't think one button should do it all, myself....

I could be wrong, though....
 

Except in ninja games which seem to maintain the fact that swords are quite fatal

Hehe.

[MysterD]

Fable 2 has reached its 1st milestone -- some playable-ness, barely:
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/10/05/fable-2-reaches-milestone-its-playable-sorta/

Fable 2 is playable! ... sorta

Posted Oct 5th 2006 4:20PM by James Ransom-Wiley
Filed under: Microsoft Xbox 360, Action, Adventure, RPGs

Xbox 360Word from Lionhead is that Fable 2 has reached the "FP" milestone -- that's dev-speak for "first playable." Don't get too excited, this just means that Microsoft has been sent a few functional areas of the game, so the publisher can be confident its money isn't only being blown on "office refurbishment" and pizza parties.

The FP build also included a never-to-be-released quest, which, according to Lionhead's most recent community update, featured, "a magical potion, some pretty messed-up, dandy-dressed, wizard-types and most importantly such a dramatic outcome of a twisted nature, that it would make Joe Average Jr. freak out." We don't even wanna know ...

[MysterD]

Peter Molyneux talking again, at GDC in London on Fable 2 and what he plans for it to make the final cut:
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3154242

'Buying Things'
Peter asks, "Why is it you can only buy swords and clothes? Why can't you buy a house? Or a shop and be a shopkeeper? Why not a whole street? Or a whole city? Or the nearby castle and be Lord of the castle? Why not buy a dungeon?"

Everything that you see in Fable 2 is buyable and when you buy it, you are Lord of the manor / Owner of the dungeon. It adds to your character as you have a feeling of wealth and ownership. It's a new mechanic; money. It can buy you security, power and pretty much anything else.

How does this enhance the experience? Ownership is empowering. It allows the player to 'unlock' content, and it adds to the simulation element.

Regarding the content unlocking, if you own a castle, there will be specific quests relating to owning that castle. "Sire, there are thieves stealing wine from the cellars!" If you own a cathedral, you get different quests - kill the priest or protect him - and so on...

What this also gives you is that when you beat the game, you haven't finished it as there's still content to be found and played through. This was a feature present in the original Fable (if you played through the evil ending and got the big sword and waited out the end credits), but the fact Lionhead is openly aware of it means that perhaps we'll get more bang for the buck this time round.

If this does get implemented -- own a whole street? Own a shop??? Even be a shopkeeper?
Oh, hell yeah!!

I'm dreaming here....so, you know what would be funny? someone say tries to steal equipment from your shop you own -- and you kick their butt for trying to do so right then and there!!! And doing so, would cause an impact so thievery happens less at your shop! Or another scenario: they get away w/ it, and you, on your own, decide to go find them -- and go after them!!! Muhahahahaaha!!!

In Fable 2, the team has focused on making the bad guy unspeakably bad. Peter says, "We want the player to despise him. I warn you however, if you have a family, don't expect them to last very long unless you be very aware of looking after them. As for the main story, we have a main thread, but unbeknown to you, we'll be picking things up and adding them into the story thread based on your personal journey.

For example, in my story the baddie may have kidnapped your kid, but in your story, he may not have kidnapped him."

Ohhhh......that's quite interesting, hehe.

Our verdict?
Overall, the talk was fascinating and showed Lionhead's genuine passion for innovating and creating engaging experiences for the player.

Fable 2 presently sounds like it's shaping up very nicely, but as with all things, it's probably best that we wait for the finished article before getting too excited, as many things in it do sound too good to be true.

Peter has always had big dreams -- I really hope he can bring us everything he is speaking on. B/c what he plans, it just sounds amazing......

I bet even if he brings even ½ of the stuff he is dreaming of, it'll be something to look at -- just like how Fable: TLC turned out. Fable: TLC was still very good, to say the very least -- even w/out some of the original features he was promoting to no end when the game was early in development.

[MysterD]

Peter's talking again, this time to Gamasutra

GS: Is Lionhead using middleware to help it make next-generation titles, then?

PM: Absolutely – I’m absolutely passionate about that. We’re using quite a lot of stuff – we’re using Havok for physics, we’re using Kynapse for navigation. It’s such a mundane task, but we as a developer have been constrained by navigation for decades. ‘You can’t have the character go up there because we don’t have a navigation map for it.’

We’re also using things like Anark for our user interface. Being able to be dynamic with these things is vital. You would think that moving a health bar from the left hand side of the screen to the right hand should be a 10-minute piece of work. And it normally takes about a week to do [laughs]. It helps to use a third-party tool that allows me as a designer to move things dynamically. We’ll use as much of this stuff as we possibly can.

Interesting.

As a gamer, I'd like to be able to move interface-based things, like maps, mana bars, and health bars, anywhere I want on the screen. That'd be cool.

GS: So what exactly is Lionhead working on right now?

PM: Certainly, our immediate focus is on Fable 2, and Fable 2 is for the Xbox 360. I just want to specialize and focus everything on one problem, since we’ve previously been so diluted by focusing on three things [The Movies, Black & White 2, Fable: The Lost Chapters, all completed in late 2005].  Me personally, I’m actually designing properly again for Fable 2, which is cool – it makes people very nervous! [laughs]

We are experimenting with something else, yes. That experiment may lead to another game. But we’re not saying anything else about that.

No wonder it took so long for B&W2, The Movies, and Fable: TLC to be done -- they were all done in the same year, all being worked on at the same time!!!

GS: It seems like a lot of the other British ‘bedroom programmer’ pioneers who came up in the ‘80s either aren’t around anymore, or have a significantly lower profile. Why do you think you’ve continued to be so known and produce such high profile games?

PM: The place I came from was when I was always a failure. When I was at school, I was just an idiot. And everyone thought I was an idiot, and everyone would always say that I would never do anything or get anywhere. And because of that, I feel I’ve yet to do that game which really makes a difference – that really is the landmark game.

That means that I do push myself – I can look you in the eye and truly say that I’m trying to make Fable 2 the greatest game I will ever build. If you write that, it will get me in an enormous amount of trouble, but that is what I truly believe.

I wonder if he'll say the next game he makes after Fable 2 will be what he says he tries to make the greatest game he will ever build is.

[MysterD]

Looks like Peter Molyneux will unveil that "revolutionary new feature" likely at his lecture at the GDC 2007 (which he mentioned will be for Fable 2, but wouldn't reveal in his last interview at The X06 Show what the feature was)

Best RPG Ever, Fable 2, Shows New Feature at GDC
Molyneux lecture will make more Fable-ous promises.
By Luke Smith, 01/09/2007

"[Lionhead] is there to make things in ways that other people don't make them." - Peter Molyneux, Lionhead Studios

We're kidding about the "Best RPG Ever" line, but anyone who's followed Peter Molyneux knows that his mouth tends to run a bit ahead of his development cycle. Gamasutra reports that Molyneux will give a talk at the upcoming Game Developer's Conference (GDC) titled, "Innovations in Fable 2." During that lecture, Molyneux will unveil "a totally unexpected feature." He detailed some of the features that Lionhead is planning for Fable 2 way back at X06, remember?

[Pugnate]

Two death threats?!?!!? Are you kidding me???!?!!?!?

I am just as shocked as you, but at the lack of death threats.

That's rediculous. So he cut out some features -- big deal. Fable was still a great action-RPG, regardless.

No I wouldn't call it great. I'd say it was excellent. The problem with people is they can't take disappointment, and after what he promised the game was destined to be a disappointment. Yes I loved Fable, but it was nothing near his original vision.

If you decided to loot the camp and kill its inhabitants, on the other hand, the land it occupied would be reclaimed by nature, and 10 years later you'd never even know it was there. Molyneux calls this technology "dynamic regions," and it's one of several features in the game that he seems genuinely excited to talk about.

That's pretty freakin' cool.

Among the features that didn't realize their full potential in Fable were the promises that you'd be able to invest in property and have a family. These somewhat gimmicky features of the original game will not only be fleshed out in the sequel, but also have the potential to occupy huge chunks of your time--perhaps even becoming an important part of your Fable 2 storyline. Regardless of whether you choose to play as a male or a female, you'll start out as a street urchin with absolutely nothing to lose.

I bet D is frothing.

After meeting the woman or man of your dreams (you can play as a woman, remember), you can marry them and then, if you're so inclined, you can opt to have protected or unprotected sex with them

OK that's just dumb. You can't have condoms in a fantasy game and expect us to maintain the suspension of disbelief.

Although many of these features were talked about as if they are confirmed for Fable 2, we should point out that Molyneux made a disclaimer of sorts at one point when he explained that many of his ideas are still being experimented with.

Too late. Now they better be in there you bastard.

An amusing example of a feature that won't be making the cut, for example, was the idea that you would assume the role of your offspring if you died. The reason why this won't be in the finished game? Testers at Lionhead started procreating like bunnies in the game, because every child was essentially like an extra life.

HAHAHAHAHA my first laugh of the day.

I just watched the keynote video on Gamespot w/ PM's keynote, to see what this last tidbit G-Spot mentioned really is all about and driving towards actually is all about -- with one "action" key.

Looks like PM wants the game's fight scenes to look and play out more like a "movie" would -- where in the movies, they use all of the pieces of the environment to their own advantage. Your swing of a sword would be different in a small corridor as opposed to a big corridor. And fighting on the stairs would be different, too. And your sword can get stuck in the bannister of a staircase, if you miss the swing. If you're near a bottle, you use that as a weapon. You can use the chandelier to swing and attack, if you're near it and hit the "action" key. If you are near a chair, which is standing, hit "action" and he'll pick it up and swing it or throw it -- depending on how close or far away the enemy is. If a chair is down, and you hit "action," he'll kick it at the enemy.

And, his other point was he wants combat to be realistic -- that if you swing a sword and it actually connects, it'll hurt someone big time, where body parts can even possibly be chopped off in actual battle. He even uses Kill Bill Volume 1's Crazy 88 scene as the example, saying that death should and can be reached with ONE swing in combat. And he said w/ "boss fights," the point of it won't be to hit that boss 500 times, but to actually get through their parry and defenses somehow....like they do in the movies....

That's AWESOME!

Watch none of these ideas be in Fable 2.

Fable 2 also will deliver a cutscene-free game, Molyneux explained. "Cutscenes are last generation. There will be no cutscenes in Fable 2."

That's pretty stupid. Cutscenes/FMVs are vital in pushing the story along in an RPG, though it obviously depends on RPG type.

'Buying Things'
Peter asks, "Why is it you can only buy swords and clothes? Why can't you buy a house? Or a shop and be a shopkeeper? Why not a whole street? Or a whole city? Or the nearby castle and be Lord of the castle? Why not buy a dungeon?"

Everything that you see in Fable 2 is buyable and when you buy it, you are Lord of the manor / Owner of the dungeon. It adds to your character as you have a feeling of wealth and ownership. It's a new mechanic; money. It can buy you security, power and pretty much anything else.

How does this enhance the experience? Ownership is empowering. It allows the player to 'unlock' content, and it adds to the simulation element.

Regarding the content unlocking, if you own a castle, there will be specific quests relating to owning that castle. "Sire, there are thieves stealing wine from the cellars!" If you own a cathedral, you get different quests - kill the priest or protect him - and so on...

What this also gives you is that when you beat the game, you haven't finished it as there's still content to be found and played through. This was a feature present in the original Fable (if you played through the evil ending and got the big sword and waited out the end credits), but the fact Lionhead is openly aware of it means that perhaps we'll get more bang for the buck this time round.

It is a simple concept, yet for some reason never implemented properly.

Our verdict?
Overall, the talk was fascinating and showed Lionhead's genuine passion for innovating and creating engaging experiences for the player.

Fable 2 presently sounds like it's shaping up very nicely, but as with all things, it's probably best that we wait for the finished article before getting too excited, as many things in it do sound too good to be true.

Death threats time?

I wonder if he'll say the next game he makes after Fable 2 will be what he says he tries to make the greatest game he will ever build is.

Yea I think that 'ever' part did it.

[Quemaqua]

I've actually always wondered why there haven't been more adult themes in fantasy games.  Why do you have all this magic flying around, but none for use as a contraceptive?  Why is magic only there to freeze, burn, blow, protect, heal, or... whatever cliche?  I've long thought it would be nice to see more creative yet everyday applications for magic in fantasy games, and I see no reason why they shouldn't do some odd sexual stuff if they're going to have relationships in a game.  Why not contraceptive magic?  Or pleasure magic?  Or drink-mixing magic?  Or flashy stuff that serves no purpose other than to woo potential mates?

Anyway... sounds like they have cool ideas for this one, but I don't much care.  I did enjoy Fable a great deal, I just don't feel the need for another one yet.

[MysterD]

GameSpy has some concept art from Fable 2 posted

[Xessive]

Oooh a Pirate/Gypsy chiquita! Count me in!

[MysterD]

Oooh a Pirate/Gypsy chiquita! Count me in!

Yeah, this game looks cool, w/ its setting. Though, I really hope that this time setting don't get beat to death -- you know, the Arcanum style setting of "Fantasy Industrial Revolution," since FF6, Arcanum, the upcoming Silverfall, and now Fable 2 will have that setting where there will be a "nature/magic vs. technology" theme going.

Though, the words "Fable 2" alone made me say count me in, hehe.

I loved the original Fable: TLC (PC).

[MysterD]

Fable 2 talk w/ Peter Molyneux -- and BTW, you'll have a dog travel w/ you for a companion.....

Peter Molyneux Shows Off Fable 2
By Greg Orlando    Print   |   Send to a friend   |   Email the editor

"I want you to get into my mind," Peter Molyneux told his audience during his GDC speech. Woah fella. We hardly know each other.

Image Molyneux's speech was titled "Innovations in Fable 2," and it was interesting to note that someone had thought to make a little joke. When the title was displayed on a giant screen before the speech, it was accompanied by a subtitle in teeny, tiny letters. "Or: How to Keep Promises," the subtitle read.

For Fable 2, Molyneux promised three innovations, but vowed only to reveal one. It was the same innovation he'd showed two days ago at a Microsoft-sponsored press event, a dog companion that every player in the action-heavy role-playing game will have.

A dog for a companion?
Is this Black and White 2 meets Fable???

The dog, of course, is both a gameplay tool and companion. For Molyneux, it's also a means to an end. That end, of course, is love and real human emotion. "I don't mean rumpy-pumpy love," he said, although he noted that it will be possible for two people in Fable 2 to have sex and, possibly, produce children. Instead, Molyneux was referring to a simple emotional response.

Okay.

"If I can get you to care about something," he said, "I've got you."

 The dog will love the player unconditionally. It will morph to reflect the player's alignment, and the first rule of its behavior is to never become a nuisance. It will respond to a player's actions, playing dead, say, after the hero has let loose a fart of unimaginable proportions. Further, it can be trained and, Molyneux hinted it will possible for two dog owners to meet, most probably over Xbox 360 Live.

Hehe....that's interesting.....

Hey, dog -- play dead! Oh, look -- the baddie takes notice and I attack him! Muhahahahaha!

 

Most of all, the dog will evoke an emotional response. At one point, the crowd booed when Molyneux directed the hero to run away from the injured dog as it bravely attempted to hobble back to his side after a battle. The dog, Molyneux said, will attempt to follow his master even under such conditions, suggesting that the hero might be at some pub chatting up a woman when the injured dog finally arrives scratching at the door.

LOL!

"I want you to feel something, man, when you play the game," Molyneux said.

Interesting, I must say....

[sirean_syan]

Probably one of the better PA's in a while.

[MysterD]

LMAO @ that.

[Pugnate]

Probably one of the better PA's in a while.

hahaha OK I saved that one.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, that's awesome.

I don't know about this.  I'm just not really looking that forward to it.  I have no doubt it'll be fun and cool, as I enjoyed Fable quite a bit for what it was, but... for some reason I'm just not excited.

[Pugnate]

If not programmed right, I can see how a dog following you around and getting killed can be annoying. If done right it can be really good.

Just a question. Is Fable 2 going to be a simultaneous launch or will the PC gamers have to wait?

[MysterD]

Yeah, that's awesome.

I don't know about this.  I'm just not really looking that forward to it.  I have no doubt it'll be fun and cool, as I enjoyed Fable quite a bit for what it was, but... for some reason I'm just not excited.

Probably b/c it's a sequel....?

If not programmed right, I can see how a dog following you around and getting killed can be annoying. If done right it can be really good.

Just a question. Is Fable 2 going to be a simultaneous launch or will the PC gamers have to wait?

X360 version is ONLY in the works, right now.

I'm sure since Fable: TLC was on the PC, Fable 2 will EVENTUALLY come to the PC. It'd be in Microsoft's and Lionhead's best interest to eventually do a PC port, if you ask me.

[gpw11]

I think the delay in release between the two platforms is usually about 2 years in cases like this.  Usually.

[MysterD]

I think the delay in release between the two platforms is usually about 2 years in cases like this.  Usually.

Yes, usually.

It was for Fable: TLC from XBox to PC.

And it was around that for Jade Empire from XBox to PC.

[MysterD]

From ActionTrip's Comic section...

[gpw11]

What the?  It's like they got Gabe from PA, broke his hands, and got him to draw and color another strip. Aparently Tycho is the funny one.

[MysterD]

Peter's up to talking a little bit again, but not saying too much...

Still, a good interview, to hear PM speak on game philosophy and theory and stuff...

Loinhead.net: So - Fable 2. Yes. One-button proximity-based combat. Can you tell us about it?

Molyneux: God, there’s so much I can tell you about it. I’d love, I’m gonna talk publicly about this for longer almost than I talked about any other game feature. It was - the only thing I can say about it - it was an experiment, that we tried, it was an experiment that we didn’t need to try, because the combat in Fable 1 wasn’t bad, at all, no-one said it was bad, quite a lot of people said it was good, and it’s an experiment that has really, really worked. Really worked. Not nearly worked.

Loinhead.net:You’re talking about this later, does that mean it’s one of the BIG 3 features?

Molyneux: I wouldn’t say it was one of the big three features, what I’m saying is that it’s worthy of, you know - if I could sit down with you now, which I’d love to do, I’d love to show you - in fact, we might do this in the communities, is to, well, considering the idea of publishing to the communities the prototype engines that we used to try and prove it, and those are all in what we call whitebox, so they don’t look particularly nice but they play well, and see what the communities think of all that stuff. But you know, as I said it was a risky thing, there’s more bits of that combat that come together than I am talking about. I’ve talked about proximity-based context-based combat, confined combat, I think I’ve talked about one-button combat and one-blow kills, I haven’t in any way talked about … and this is something that no-one has ever heard, this word, there’s one thing about combat I haven’t spoken about which is a very interesting area - and, one word? - One word. And it’s death. Death. Think about it. Think about death. Think about what computer games do with death. What have they done with death? What does every game do, what does just about every game do with death?

Loinhead.net: Try to ignore it, simplify it?

Molyneux: Well, it’s even worse than that, you die, and you go back in time twenty minutes to do the same thing over again. That’s fine if I’m playing a platformer, not so fine if you’re doing an RPG game. So I haven’t talked about death, there’s another thing which I haven’t talked at all about which is another word that you’re gonna hear me use - which I’m not gonna talk about - it’s another big thing.

So, hmmmmm....what does Peter have planned to do w/ death in Fable 2?

Pull a Planescape: Torment can spawn our character back to a certain location, back to life and all??
Maybe the main character goes to an "unconscious" state, and you get sent back somewhere??!?!?

Or does PM have something new up his sleeve???

[beo]

this does sound fantastic. the original fable was excellent (if not a bit stunted), and if molyneux can pull off all the stuff he's promising, this could really be his masterpiece. reading through the original post, and realising what that game could potentially be like gets me genuinely excited - which isn't something i experience with videogames very often anymore.

[gpw11]

I think he's probably a lot better dealing with the press and his fan base after the mishap with Fable.  That said, I still don't fully trust anything he says about a game in the pipeline.  He's probably learned to not go off about features before he knows if he can implement them, but for me it's hard to get past that first impression where I was looking forward to one Fable for like 3 years and slowly had it chopped down to a much less innovative game over the final year of development. 

[Xessive]

Maybe a "Deathwalk" a la Prey?

[Cobra951]

That's always an issue with games under development.  A lot of unrealistic expectations from the top don't get shot down until there's no choice but to shoot them down.  It's hard to tell someone that it just ain't happening because of time or technical reasons.  The latter have dwindled with technology, but not the former.  I guess Molyneux excels at talking up a godlike goodness that mere mortals can't quite implement.

[Pugnate]

Like gpw said, he is really good at making things sound fantastic. I'll wait till the game is near complete before paying attention to what it features.

[MysterD]

Loinhead.com interviews Dene Carter of Lionhead Studios, who is working on Fable 2.

[MysterD]

From ActionTrip, E3 Impressions of Fable 2

So, I just got out of my Fable 2 meeting. To the delight of the very small audience (about a few of us game journalists), the game was presented by Peter Molyneux, the head of the Lionhead Studios (the well-known development team behind the project).

First of all, Peter seems like an interesting guy. In the very short time I talked to him and listened to him, he's almost like this wonder kid trapped in the body of a 40-something year old guy. I can now fully understand how the press would exploit this side of the guy. On top of being extremely analytical and someone who is studying human character, the guy is like a kid who absolutely loves talking about his games and, yes, even bragging.

This meeting, however, was a little subdued as the PR person was sitting watchfully behind us as Peter was talking.

So what we saw of Fable 2 was a build that's roughly a year away from completion at the moment. As Peter explained, they have "a whole year to polish the product, but most of the structure, the story and the game world is already in place." Encouraging news, certainly (I for one, am pleased with it. Looking forward to this game. – Vader).

Peter took control of the main character, who was, judging by his appearance, still in the early stages of character progression. He took the hero through the streets of Albion, where he'd fight some bandits.

Now this is the interesting bit.

The first topic of the demonstration was combat. And as it usually goes with Peter's crazy ideas, this one sounded ludicrous as we heard it. The entire combat (melee anyway) is centered around one single button – the blue X button on the controller. That's right.

The guiding idea for this was that Peter is actively trying to merge two different camps of the Fable audience if you will – the hardcore and the casual gamers. So, for the casual gamers, obviously, the idea is that it's pretty easy to simply button-mash the X and get through a fight. However, if you are more of a hardcore player, you will soon see that there is more to the X button idea than meets the eye. The skill-based factor (which is something important for bragging rights) was introduced through the power moves in combination with getting the right rhythm and most importantly getting the timing right as you attack our counter-attack against a bad guy. Amazingly, the idea seems to be working, and what's more, it's extremely accessible. The hardcore guys who get very good at this sort of combat will receive more experience points and obviously some other forms of bragging rights.

Timing and rhythm w/ one button presses....
...Sounds like what The Witcher will be doing.

In addition to the one-button combat system, Peter introduced some other cool ideas. As the fights get more dramatic and filled with more enemies, the rhythm of the music will actually correspond to your actions on screen. This in itself adds more dramatics to the combat – for example, you execute a powerful finishing move, the drums will pick up at the exact moment you impale your opponent, adding a very nice cinematic effect to the experience.

Cool.

Another interesting thing that Peter introduced in the demo is the death system in the game. He compared it to your typical situation in one of the Rocky movies. Instead of simply dying, you will fall to the ground and the camera will center on you as the bad guys around you continue to hit and kick you as you are down. Now get this, as they are doing this, you will receive scars and the longer you stay down, the more scars you're gonna have on your body. Very cool feature, and it ties in to another feature and that is that you will be able to get up really quickly at the expense of either experience points or gold (Hey, I rather like that moment. Sweet! – Vader).

Sounds like your character won't die, but will go unconscious or something...

As you can see, the focus on skill-based combat and accessibility at the entry level, the ideas for the death system point to the fact that Fable 2 will almost certainly have multiplayer mode, and you can sort of see some traces of Blizzard logic as well as their motto "easy to get into, hard to master," creeping their way into Lionhead's design philosophy.

When I asked about the multiplayer, Peter paused for a second and his eyes lit up slightly. I'm pretty sure he was waiting for someone to ask him that. However, under the watchful eye of the PR lady in the back, Peter wasn't able to give a direct answer (The PR guy probably had a gun under his jacket. – Ed.).

Take this as you will. All I know is, the crazy-ass Brit is setting a highly ambitious goal once again for himself and we wish him the best of luck, as some of us are indeed big fans of the original game here.

Okay.

Screenie-time!

[Xessive]

I've watched a couple of the E3 videos on Fable 2, and it looks like PM is really pleased with how it's shaping up. I like some of the ideas, and the way it's dealing with "death" seems interesting but I wonder how that will affect the "health bar."

From what I understood, when you overwhelmed you're knocked down and enemies will keep hacking at you (as mentioned). But I don't understand what happens in these cases:
1) does your health go back to 100%?
2) Have they eliminated the health bar idea altogether?
3) What happens if you have no gold or experience to spend? Do you just get up much later scarred as hell?

We'll just have to wait and see I guess.

[MysterD]

I've watched a couple of the E3 videos on Fable 2, and it looks like PM is really pleased with how it's shaping up. I like some of the ideas, and the way it's dealing with "death" seems interesting but I wonder how that will affect the "health bar."

It seems like we won't have to worry about the "reload" screen, which can be a good thing!

From what I understood, when you overwhelmed you're knocked down and enemies will keep hacking at you (as mentioned). But I don't understand what happens in these cases:
1) does your health go back to 100%?
2) Have they eliminated the health bar idea altogether?
3) What happens if you have no gold or experience to spend? Do you just get up much later scarred as hell?

We'll just have to wait and see I guess.

Good questions, X.

I'm sure we'll find out, sooner or later...

[MysterD]

New interview w/ Molyneux.

"Like it or not, combat is at least half of a role-playing experience, probably more like 70%. So if I want to get into that landmark status, I've got to innovate combat. And the problem is an enormous number of games you see are totally unplayable for the vast majority of the population. Give Halo 3 or Call of Duty to a casual gamer and they will just run away screaming, they wouldn't have the first chance. But, hardcore gamers are getting so demanding now, they're requiring ultimate balance, enormous depth, and love experimenting throughout the whole of the game. Those are polar opposites, on one side accessibility, and on the other, depth. How can I create a combat system that combines both together?"

Molyneux said that the controller, which he referred to as an "old jalopy" that looks "a bit dated these days", has often forced a lot of the action on games to focus on pressing the four buttons in the right combination. "This really does piss a lot of casual gamers off", he claimed, revealing that his combat-orientated demo of Fable 2 used just one button. "It's one-button combat. It has been tried before, but usually really sucked. I am going to try and make it not suck."

We'll see how well Molyneux will make that work....

Initiating a fight in the game, Peter starts with some 'button mashing' - hitting the button without any coordination or rhythm, involving little skill. "You would think button mashing would be one thing I'd want to get rid of, but I don't. For some people, it's what they want to do." The idea, he explained, is that the depth comes from getting more out of doing cooler things. "I'm just going to make it so that in fights, button mashers will need to bang a lot longer, and get less of a score - which means less experience and power ups if you button mash. So I'm not punishing you for button mashing; I'm rewarding you for not button mashing, and that is a really big distinction."

Ah, so it'll be more like a timing thing -- kind of like what The Witcher might do w/ the timing of attacks and all.

Rhythm produces more attacks, holding down and 'charging' gives you a special move that gives double the experience points. "And another thing we've got is counter moves, for much more experienced players," says Molyneux. "If they're really good they can wait for an attack and counter it, flip him around, and do a killing blow. That is much more skill based, and again you'll get double the experience."

Interesting.

Another advanced attack is to use the environment; you can actually break someone's neck on some railing during combat. It could be a spike on a fence or a solid brick wall, and you'll get increased experience for that as well." And all this, using the same button: "If I am using the attack button it means I want to do something aggressive to the nearest target!"

Oooooh....those kind of kills sound pretty cool!

But Lionhead knows it is not enough of a reward, for players who do the combat 'right' to simply get a better score. "How can I reinforce that?" he ponders. "With another new thing, which is using music, and effects, and camera cuts. I want you to think of the sword as a conductor's baton. As you're fighting, we'll be introducing different musical elements, the more successful you are. And we'll be upping the tempo of the music, the more abilities that you unlock. So you not only get more of a score, you get a cooler soundtrack. This is literally unlocking different musical instruments that are in there, which makes me feel more engaged with the combat."

Well, that's quite....different....

Molyneux, somewhat unexpectedly, then allowed us to play Fable 2, the first time media had ever been able to play it, so that we could really get a feel of this combat system ourselves. As seasoned players of traditional 2D and 3D fighting games, we were keen to see if his claims had any chance of becoming reality.

All the drums are under your control," he advises, "and if you're successful in your attacks, you hear the music start to ramp up." He told us to play just by doing whatever felt natural. And it seemed to work immediately.

A very low pitched, bassy hum created impressive tension from the very moment he handed me the controller, and after a few seconds of successive attacks and enemies closing in, a fast clicky sort of snare rhythm kicks in, which actually gives a release of adrenaline as the pace picks up. Perhaps the combat already felt more engaging, or perhaps we were frightened of messing it up in front of the game's own creator.

But as more colour came into the screen, reinforcing how well the player is supposedly doing, our confidence started to pick up. The rhythm 'subconsciously' tells us what the attack rhythm should be, we're advised, and rewards us with different sounds coming in, to form the unique music. Deeper bass sounds boomed in, like a thumping heart beat. We tried to vary our attacks a bit more, moving the character to create better space from the many enemies that were surrounding us, and experimenting with this single attack button. "Ah, you're a charger-upper," realises Molyneux as we charge attacks up to see what happens. "I am as well, but if I were a button masher, this music would sound completely different. It's procedurally generated music generated by your combat style."

Okay....

He added: "Remember, this is a role playing game; all the different weapons have different music sounds and give a very individual feel to the combat." A few extra tips later (if you get your opponent against a wall they're in trouble; loose objects in the environment can also be used as weapons) and the battle is nearing its conclusion. After a short while, a more orchestral sound of glory kicks as we're on the way to victory.

Interesting.

Molyneux also went on to discuss the concept of 'death' in the game for the first time, and why it needs to be different to other games.

"Death in computer games, it's been the same since we invented them. What death is in most games is: you die, the screen goes black, and you go back to the last checkpoint, go through the same story bit, fight the same little fodder, and do the same boss fight. That is rubbish. It makes me feel bored and it's tedious. We've got to think of another way to make combat feel like it means something. What we historically do in a boss battle to make you feel more tense, is send you back further, which is even more frustrating. We've been thinking about how we can address that."

Yuh, I hate being sent backwards quite a deal, to a checkpoint or whatever -- especially if I can't quicksave at anytime.

"As we saw in Fable 1, the world reacts to what you're like; if you walk down the street and look heroic, people will greet you, but if you look evil they'll run away. And this is our answer to death. Very simply put, when you're fighting anybody and you see your hit points go down to nothing, your hero collapses, but instead of the screen going black, we keep the camera on the hero. The baddies will come in and start laying in to you - kicking him, punching him, slashing with a sword - and it's quite an emotional thing to see that with everybody laying into you.

"What actually happens is your hero is getting permanently scarred all over his body. And those scars will never go away. The more times you die, the more you get scarred, the more ugly and disfigured you will look, and the more the world will react. We tested with loads of kids, and most people loathe looking like it, and the interesting thing is how that makes you feel. If you're willing to pay 500 experience, you can get up immediately and not be scarred at all, and continue the battle from where it was. The longer you wait, the cheaper it costs to get up.

That's different.

I guess I'll have to make it a point to get scarred like there's no tomorrow just to see how the world reacts to my ugly looking dude -- hehe!

He concludes: "That actually works; it makes combat so much more impactful, because the cost is not tedium any more; the cost is your look and how cool you are as a player, and that coolness is very important."

I wonder how many will actually load an earlier saved game instead of taking the experience penalty to "get up", just so they ain't scarred so much!

But what if you're so scarred that there's less to lose and maybe no pay off at all? "The whole of your body, except for your private parts, can be scarred. You are clothed most of the time, but not in front of your wife, and not when you swim, either. Don't forget, it's the emotion of being scarred. I promise, just try. It is like when we lay down this whole good/evil thing [in Fable 1], the fact is, 80% of the people were good. And the remaining 20%, half of them converted to good within the first hour, so only 10% went down the evil path!"

Okay.

I challenged Peter about whether he's suggesting that the combat system I had just played is something that casual gamers can really approach easily.

"I am certainly suggesting that a good proportion of those people can't even control a character, and get stuck, and we're spending a lot of time getting that right. I could say draw your sword and they wouldn't even have a clue what we're talking about. But if you say push forward and just push the button more, they could get through the whole game like that. It would take them a lot longer, and the hero would look atrocious by the end of it, and wouldn't be nearly as powered up as 'your' hero, but they could finish it. And I want to do that, because I want more people to play the game."

Okie.

A few other details came out of this latest meeting. One companion you'll have throughout the whole of Fable 2, is a dog, which Peter described as "the most amazing piece of AI that we have ever produced and I've ever seen in the industry." Secondly, you have a lookout key (LB) that will show you the most interesting thing on the screen at that time - which was how our first battle was initiated earlier. Finally, cut scenes will be interactive: "I never want to take control away from you, I want you to feel like you are in the world, and I never want you to put down the controller and 'watch' something. You have the ability to modify the story as you go along, which I'll talk about next time."

Molyneux put his ultimate goal with Fable 2 another way: "When you go and do your hateful lists of the Top Ten Games of All Time, then just maybe, just maybe we've got a chance of getting in that list. Because that's what I really care about! I've always been obsessed with this. When you see a magazine or website with the top 100 greatest games of all time, you just feel suicidal as you work your way down the list, and it really matters to me that I deliver a game that makes a difference."

Lionhead is at least a year away from completing Fable 2, and there is of course a lot of balancing and polishing to do, but it works today, and from what we played of the game, it already works very well indeed.

Cool.

[MysterD]

Lionhead is aiming for Late 2008 for Fable 2 on the X360...
...I wonder if it'll make it.