Topic: Dear Valve:

[WindAndConfusion]

If it were possible, I would totally have your babies.

Enclosed with this letter is a sandwich bag and some lewd pictures of my cousin. Please mail me some sperm.

Love,
xxx

[Quemaqua]

Dear Internet,

Fuck Valve +1.

Cheers,
xxx

[Pugnate]

I appreciate Valve to be one of the few companies that is still standing up for PC gaming.

[WindAndConfusion]

I've been ignoring FPS's for a long time, because the whole genre is stale and decrepit. I hadn't played Half-Life 2, I hadn't tried Steam, and I hadn't bought the Orange Box.

Up until yesterday, anyway.

Steam is better than I could have hoped, the HL2 engine gives good graphics at good framerates, Valve is obviously committed to making solid PC games, and I still haven't played Half-Life 2.

[Jedi]

is obviously committed to making solid PC games,

Then slapping it around with steam.
But besides that yeah they're the one of the few left who seems to take pride in making games.

[Ghandi]

Aside from multiple bad Steam experiences, I have nothing against Valve. But in their defense,   the program is aptly named, as it is precisely what rises from a pile of hot shit.

[Pugnate]

I pictured that, and now wish I hadn't.

[MysterD]

Dear Valve,

Keep making good, fun games to play.

But, please learn how to add DEPTH to a story AND stop leaving cliff-hangers.
Oh, and please remove the need of STEAM from your games.

And thanks for not listening to me...

Derick

[idolminds]

Steam loses its appeal when, due to a server setting change on their end, you become unable to play any of your Steam games for a month.

[MysterD]

I might be able to somewhat understand them tethering MP-games to their Steam network, but not SP games...

[WindAndConfusion]

I admit, I'm less enthused with Steam now that I've read about all the evil shit it tries to pull. Also: pop-under advertisements.

But it has an offline mode. I assume that lets you bypass all the authentication bullshit?

[idolminds]

Offline mode is kind of hokey from what I've read. Enabling it isnt easy, it can "expire" requiring you to go back online anyway, etc.

[Quemaqua]

Which is a big problem trying to play Steam-tied games on a laptop, let me tell you.  There are a lot of other problems with the program too.  Crashes and data loss, that kind of stuff, and that's on top of the often idiotic ways it handles data even when it's doing what it's supposed to.  It really isn't a pretty picture if you're anything less than the average lemming-like gamer of the new millennium who doesn't care about wasting money and getting shit in return.  You don't hear many knowledgeable people talk about it either, because a lot of them are developers who use the service to expand their audience.  The problem is Steam is really popular, and it's going to make Valve a fucking fortune.  Everybody wants a piece of that.

[Xessive]

If it came down to an all-out war between Steam and G4WL and I'm unable to maintain my neutrality I'd have to side with Steam. It's the lesser of two evils in this case.

[Pugnate]

While I've had my share of frustration with STEAM, I genuinely believe that it has a good chance of moving in the right direction.

[Quemaqua]

Gpw seems to find G4WL to be the lesser evil.  Frankly, I think they're both conceptually flawed on a fundamental level and will do nothing but degrade what we've all taken so many years to build.  These have as much chance of eventually moving in the right direction as the Holocaust might have.

[gpw11]

I have more experience with both now, and I'd say it's a bit of a tossup.  They're two completely different things.  Steam is more of a centralized gaming service compaired to GFWL.  It has the store, you need it to launch your steam related games, and you can use it to browse for demos and trailers.  The only areas they really overlap at this point are the online functions like the friends list. 

That said, GFWL is less problematic in execution.  You can still play your games perfectly fine if your connection is down, and if an update is released you can play your game's SP component without it if you so choose.  If you really want you could easily play Gears of War without ever having to see the GFWL gui.  The downside of it is the fact that MS is trying to sell their premium service, and for the PC there aren't any natural benefits to go along with that so they have to tier their online servers.  It's also newer and more buggy at this point (but because of it being less restrictive this isn't as game-breaking as it was when Steam first came out).

Steam, on the other hand, is still holding your balls in a vicegrip.  Forced game updates, forced online, and things like that.  I haven't run into a major problem with it recently, but when I originally bought HL2 retail I couldn't play it for about 24 hours.  I know Idol couldn't play TF2 for a few days recently and I still hear about people getting locked out of their games all the time.  That shouldn't fucking happen.  Conceptually I do like the service.  I've bought a few things I can't find other places off it (that Uplink/Darwinia/Defcon package and DoD:Source) and I always browse the sale items.  As far as monetary transactions go, it works flawlessly, but I have no fucking idea why it pauses downloads while you're playing Steam related games, that's just a bit stupid.  Either way, it's a good platform for older games and indie games (Aquaria would probably sell like hotcakes on Steam).  The deal breaker with steam for me is the fact that it DOES have the ability to lock you out of your games whenever the hell it feels like it.  Beyond that, I don't know why the fuck people are buying new retail games on it when you can get the disks in a box for the exact same price.

[Cobra951]

The deal breaker with steam for me is the fact that it DOES have the ability to lock you out of your games whenever the hell it feels like it.  Beyond that, I don't know why the fuck people are buying new retail games on it when you can get the disks in a box for the exact same price.

[idolminds]

Or less. I look at the prices on Steam and for 90% of the games I can easily score a retail box for less. Including shipping. Brand new games are usually $5-10 cheaper the week they release in retail as well. I just dont get it.

[gpw11]

I can't really blame Valve for it.  People are apparently willing to pay it, so why would they price competitively?   I don't see why people do it though, I mean it would take far longer to download all of bioshock than it would to run out to the store and pick it up, so that's out. 

[Pugnate]

I don't understand people either.

[MysterD]

Just b/c you buy and DL a game from STEAM doesn't make you cool.

In fact, it makes you kind of foolish, if the game is ALSO being sold in retail stores -- for the reason Idol put down, namely w/ you being able to buy the retail version for the same price as it is on STEAM OR more than likely the retail version is LESS than STEAM's price.

Though, I can understand you buying a game over STEAM b/c it has yet to be sold in stores OR you bought an older game that is nearly impossible to find in stores anymore period.

Who the hell wants to take a bunch of hours to maybe a day to DL a game from STEAM, when you can in fact (depending on what you're installing) take probably some 40 minutes or less to install the game off the disc?

Also, instead of giving some other publisher the majority of $$$$ by buying it off STEAM, you're giving it to Valve...

What also can be even more foolish is gamers that buy a non-Valve 3rd party game over STEAM, when they could've in fact bought the Retail Version at the store on disc that is likely STEAM-less.

[Pugnate]

I don't think people do it to be cool.

[Quemaqua]

I disagree.  I think a lot of people think Steam is "neat" and just fuck with it for the novelty.  Okay, maybe that isn't to be cool, but it's close to it.

[Xessive]

I agree, I think much of it is for this whole trend of being more cyber-integrated.

I can understand the convenience of downloading in situations where you're remote or unable to find what you want in a store.

Here's where I think Steam shoots itself in the foot: If you buy a Steam game from a retail store e.g. Half-Life 2, you have the physical installation AND you have access to download it, all for the same price (or less) than buying it directly off Steam.

When you do download something on Steam you are able to burn it on a disc for backup or to avoid downloading again should you uninstall. But if you consider the additional cost of the blank disc, any personal labeling, etc. it just doesn't make sense to rely solely on Steam (even though it is minuscule, I'm sure Valve have put it into their equation).

So far the greatest benefit Steam based games have is no need for a disc in the drive and no unnecessary invasive security measures. Steam makes Starforce, TAGES, SecuROM etc. redundant. Which in turn I'm sure saves developers the time and resources to license such security measures in the first place.

[Pugnate]

Well loads of people bought Bioshock on STEAM to evade that activation crap.

[gpw11]

So far the greatest benefit Steam based games have is no need for a disc in the drive and no unnecessary invasive security measures. Steam makes Starforce, TAGES, SecuROM etc. redundant. Which in turn I'm sure saves developers the time and resources to license such security measures in the first place.

The lack of active protection like Starforce and SecuROM is certainly good for consumers, but I don't think it helps the developers all that much.  For one, I'm fairly certain protection is something that falls into the realm of the publisher.  It'd also be interesting to see what cut Valve gets of the games sold on Steam.  I'd imagine it'd be priced close to that of what the protection licensing would be.

[Xessive]

The lack of active protection like Starforce and SecuROM is certainly good for consumers, but I don't think it helps the developers all that much.  For one, I'm fairly certain protection is something that falls into the realm of the publisher.  It'd also be interesting to see what cut Valve gets of the games sold on Steam.  I'd imagine it'd be priced close to that of what the protection licensing would be.

Yeah, you're right it is more on the publishers' end. It's probably true, but I'd imagine it's still more beneficial to the consumers, developers, and publishers alike as oppose to the more common protection tools.

[Quemaqua]

See, that doesn't make sense.  Steam *IS* the fucking invasive copy protection measure.  It does other stuff, sure, but: you can't install the game without it, it has to be running on your system at the time you launch the game, and you're entirely beholden to its whims as far as if and when you can play your game.  How is that not invasive copy protection?

Frankly, in the very small (I think 3 games) experience I've had with Steam, I've had more trouble with it than I've had with all other forms of copy protection since the beginning of copy protection.  And that isn't hyperbole, it's truth.  Steam has treated me worse than TAGES, SecuROM, and Starforce.  That should fucking tell you something right there.

[idolminds]

I know Starforce got a bad rap, but of all the games I've installed I never really know until later that they used starforce. The games just ran, never had any ill effects. Steam on the other hand...

[MysterD]

I know Starforce got a bad rap, but of all the games I've installed I never really know until later that they used starforce. The games just ran, never had any ill effects. Steam on the other hand...

You can tell when StarForce is on your game, even if you don't know ahead of time.

First of all, the game won't ask you for the CD key upon install like most games. SF usually does it after the install. It's normally when you first decide to boot the game for the very first time.

Second, usually it has in its small-sized message box (usually grey) w/ a "Protection" lock symbol in the upper-left corner; before you run it, it will ask you directly for the game's CD Key. No matter what game it is, that is a sign of it.

Third off, your game-disc, when the game boots, you will hear the disc run much faster and be a lot more noisy in the disc drive compared to any other protection around there (such as Securom, TAGES, etc etc) -- namely b/c its measuring the disc for its actual length, among doing other things.

[Xessive]

It's a thin line between Steam and certain other security measures. Steam makes it clear what you're getting into. You understand that you need to install Steam (as tedious as it is) and that the game (and perhaps other games) requires it in order to run (without the disc too). In contrast with Starforce, which does not inform you of the drivers it's discreetly installing (which in some cases did a bit of harm); In my case it just messed with my DVD drive.

The only real problem I have with Steam is the requirement to log in and be online. It feels like a limitation rather than an asset and a restriction to access the games I paid for! I'm glad there is an "offline mode" but even that has its limits. That's teh main thing deterring me from buying games on Steam, besides the Valve titles.

[MysterD]

It's a thin line between Steam and certain other security measures. Steam makes it clear what you're getting into. You understand that you need to install Steam (as tedious as it is) and that the game (and perhaps other games) requires it in order to run (without the disc too). In contrast with Starforce, which does not inform you of the drivers it's discreetly installing (which in some cases did a bit of harm); In my case it just messed with my DVD drive.

At least on The Orange Box, it does tell you Internet required and that you must agree to the SSA (Steam Subscriber Agreement) right on the sticker w/ the game's minimum requirements list.

About StarForce, yeah -- you don't know the game comes w/ StarForce until you either find out online somewhere if the game has StarForce; OR until you finish installing the game to get the nasty "StarForce Message Box" w/ the lock symbol in it that asks you for the CD Key.

I dunno', but both SF and Steam are two unnecessary evils...

The only real problem I have with Steam is the requirement to log in and be online. It feels like a limitation rather than an asset and a restriction to access the games I paid for! I'm glad there is an "offline mode" but even that has its limits. That's teh main thing deterring me from buying games on Steam, besides the Valve titles.

As much as I hate Steam, I really thought about it -- I doubt I'm gonna play much of the Steam SP games more than once, in my lifetime; yeah, like I do w/ most games, actually.

I doubt I'll ever play HL2, HL2: Ep One, or HL2: Ep Two again. If any of the Steam games, I'd probably play Portal again.

One thing I liked about Dark Messiah SP portion (Retail Box) after it normally installs, it does gave you the actual OPTION to connect it to Steam to convert it into Steam files OR you can just use leave it as is to let the game's CD protection as you'd normnally do a SP game. Up to you.
 
Unfortunately, Dark Messiah MP does require Steam regardless, though....

[sirean_syan]

*yawn*

Can you all do me a favor and let me know if anything new and/or worthwhile is ever said on a STEAM thread again.

[MysterD]

*yawn*

Can you all do me a favor and let me know if anything new and/or worthwhile is ever said on a STEAM thread again.

Maybe you should stop checking Valve Thread, STEAM Thread, and any threads about games you know that force you to deal w/ STEAM  then!
You know a Steam discussion will come up, when mentioning any of the above.

Y'know it ain't gonna be good what we say about STEAM, considering how most of us feel about STEAM...Most of us don't particularly care for it, for many good reasons, too...

It's not that STEAM is a horrible idea -- actually, I'm all for the idea of downloading and buying games online-for-download from the service. I just don't happen to like a lot of the other bullshit that happens to comes w/ it, its execution flat-out sucks, for the most part; the way it deals w/ patches, backing-up entire games, forced patches, forced to boot STEAM to run a game, even SP games require STEAM, etc etc.

I think STEAM games you buy from the retail store in a retail box could take a cue from Hellgate: London with how to deal w/ SP and MP games. HG: London's SP portion requires the disc to play the game. If you don't ever wanna create an account or go online w/ this game, so be it. STEAM's SP games like Portal and HL2 Episodes, they could work that way that if you buy them at a Retail Store in an actual Retail Box, you'd only need the game disc to run the game and NOT STEAM itself.

Meanwhile, the MP portion of HG: London doesn't require the disc b/c the MP portion is tied to your online account that you will have to sign in with -- since since STEAM does that w/ all games, that part's already covered, heh.

[Ghandi]

D you used the word "steam" 12 times in that last post.

[TheOtherBelmont]

D you used the word "steam" 12 times in that last post.

He secretly has a tattoo of the word "Steam" on his chest.  He hits himself there every day to make himself feel better.

[MysterD]

He secretly has a tattoo of the word "Steam" on his chest.  He hits himself there every day to make himself feel better.

Yeah, it's kinda' like beating a dead horse...

[Jedi]

Go out and get laid man.

There I said it it's out in the open so we can stop avoiding the subject like it's a lepper 

[Ghandi]

Hahaha...

I wasn't avoiding it I simply don't know how often D is getting laid, nor do I ever want to think about it. Ever.