Topic: Left 4 Dead

[MysterD]

Yeah, this is all paid for already. And really...this pack isn't that big a deal to begin with.

The two "new" campaigns for Versus should have been available for Versus from the start.

Agreed.

Survivor mode is such an obvious mode and easy to implement its a wonder why it wasn't already there. Its basically a single map with the "infinite finale" cvar turned on. Not saying it wont be fun, but I'm pretty sure the community would have popped that out 2 minutes after the SDK release.

I mean, I appreciate getting updates and all that. Just don't give credit where it isn't really due.

Naturally, I'm glad the PC DLC won't cost a penny. It shouldn't, in the first place.

I'm glad Valve ain't making X360 owners (who have XB Live) pay for this update -- since Microsoft wants to try to sell every DLC that seems to exist.

Really though, I'd like to see that SDK released and some brand NEW campaigns/maps added, myself.

[Quemaqua]

The problem with the reception this is now getting is that people are basically giving Valve a "charge money for new shit" free card.  I'm absolutely not going to kiss Valve's ass or say anything beyond we were owed this update since we paid real money for half a game (or in my case, somebody else did... but his money is as valuable as anyone else's, and he deserves to have it treated with the same respect even if I'm not the one who handed it over).  Like idol said, the fact that two of the campaigns weren't versus-capable from the start was a complete joke, and I won't even get into the ridiculous number of problems I've had dealing with shit server-side.  I can't see the code, but the implementation of whatever's there is just ugly as sin, and there are tons of problems both with Steam and the game itself that any other developer would get absolutely manhandled for.  But not Valve, oh no.  Heaven forbid anyone say anything bad about them.  They rescue babies from pits of human sacrifice when they aren't busy making games, and they also plant special eco-flowers which restore the harmonious balance of nature while we unworthy humans waste time playing their entertainment products.  Haven't you heard?

Meh, fuck that shit.  What this now means, as I said before, is that any new maps or anything they come up with they can basically charge for and nobody will say anything but "Okay, here's my wallet!"  And if they release more maps for free, people will just praise them even more and Steam will gain even more momentum.  And Gabe Newell's fat, greasy hands will slap one of the asses of his many whores while he laughs and eats fried chicken wrapped in hundred dollar bills.

[scottws]

Lol Que.

I have been dying to see what this game is about, but I just can't bear to spring for the entry fee at this point.

[MysterD]

It's a victory on the X360 for Valve's "Survival Pack DLC" to be free -- since we're seeing more and more stupid DLC actually cost money (especially on the consoles). Now, maybe some companies -- EA, cough, EA, cough, Capcom, cough, Street Fighter 4 DLC, cough -- will wise-up and stop selling alternate skin and character model packs for money. That stuff should be FREE, for crying out-loud.

It really would've been interesting to see Valve charge money for the "Survival Pack DLC" on the PC. I could imagine this would've been the reaction -- half would be kissing Valve's ass, while the other half would be wanting to kick Valve's ass.

I'm glad it didn't come to that, though -- and everybody's getting this stuff for free.

[Xessive]

One thing that bothers me about this whole mess is that it got a lot more attention than it deserved. This "free press" will probably fuel Valve's march into the microtransaction market. Which is bullshit. 2 years ago no one would have ever questioned whether or not the due content was going to be free or not. Somehow Valve managed to make it questionable and now the general public (the average Joe gamers who don't much about what shit is worth) will expect such things to cost money and, given the numbers of average Joe gamers, will screw the hardcore gamers (who know what shit is worth).

I'm treating this as a patch. It will amend, adjust, or add what is necessary to bring the product closer to "complete."

[idolminds]

Steam weekend deal is L4D for $25 (50% off)

[MysterD]

Steam weekend deal is L4D for $25 (50% off)

That's a good price for it.

[idolminds]

L4D sales jump over 9000! 3000% due to the sale, beating the games own launch sale numbers.

Cheap things sell better than expensive things. News at 11.

[Pugnate]

I think that coupled with the announcement that the DLC would be free, helped.

edit:

http://left4dead411.com/news/2009/02/l4d-dlc-free/

The recently announced Left 4 Dead Downloadable Content (L4D DLC) will be delivered to Xbox 360 and PC gamers free of charge.

Due for release this spring, the DLC for 2008's best-selling new game property on the PC and Xbox 360, is dubbed the L4D Survival Pack and introduces a new multiplayer game mode entitled, Survival, plus two complete campaigns for Versus Mode (Death Toll, Dead Air). A Critic's Choice Edition of the game will be heading to retail stores this spring, and will include access to all the content introduced in the L4D: Survival Pack.

edit 2:

OK, Idol already posted that piece of news. Sorry, I wasn't here!

[MysterD]

I knew L4D's sales were gonna go crazy this weekend -- but damn, that's even better than expected!
Awesome!

[idolminds]

Update expected before April 20th.

So yes, Dead Air and Death Toll available in VS. New Survivor mode has 12 maps...11 of which are culled from the existing campaigns.

Seems to me there is just a bit too much hype for this. Its a bunch of map tweaks and only one truly new map.

[Xessive]

Basically contributing to the "complete" status of L4D as a whole game.

[MysterD]

Basically contributing to the "complete" status of L4D as a whole game.

As long as its free, fine by me.

[Quemaqua]

And why the fuck is it taking them until April to get this out?  Jeebus these people are useless.

[gpw11]

are you guys still playing this by the way?  I haven't really had the time lately but wouldn't mind doing a few more runs with you guys.

[Quemaqua]

I haven't lately, but I'm generally up for a game.

[MysterD]

I played this for a good while last night -- like almost 2 hours.

Despite its shortness/lack of content, L4D is still just one of those games every now and then I can just suddenly just decide to just play for like an hour or two.

Though, we need that SDK and more maps released, so I can play this game more often and for longer time periods.

I don't play L4D like I used to, when I first got the game...

[scottws]

I still want to get this game, but it seems like the love affair is wearing off for most people.

[MysterD]

I still want to get this game, but it seems like the love affair is wearing off for most people.

B/c it needs more maps and a SDK.
That would really keep me playing more often than I currently do, which is now every now and then.

[Pugnate]

I think it is just the people here? From the multiplayer stats I've seen L4D is getting more popular.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, once there's more content my interest will be rekindled.  I don't feel like I've absolutely exhausted what's there as it is, though without an infusion of content, it's definitely going to get stale before long.  I'd say the new stuff will help, but actually it really won't since it's just a rehash of the same crap we've already seen.  I'm not *that* interested in online competitive play.  It's fun, and very intense, but I just don't like random pickup games.  I'd much rather play with friends, but we haven't gotten together to try and take on people, so... eh.

Still, *eventually* the game is going to be filled with everything it needs.  It's still a great game as it stands, just one that doesn't have quite enough to keep it going for months.  But used sparingly, it's still very fun.

[MysterD]

I would like to play with you guys -- but when I kept trying to play when y'all had those servers were set-up, I just couldn't stay on.

I had the same problem the other night on (random) some person I don't know's server, as I got kicked-off. Though, few minutes later, I could get back on into their game, though.

Is The Net Code for this game still wonky or something? I NEVER have MP server problems w/ staying on anyone else's server for any other MP game except this L4D, which still feels like I'm getting kicked-out for what seems like no reason.

[Xessive]

I can never connect to the OW server.. It always times out.. The distance is too much. If its any consolation I pretend I'm playing with you guys when I'm other servers.

[Pugnate]

Yea the ping is just too much.

[Quemaqua]

Yes, D, L4D has horrible netcode and a ridiculous and buggy server setup.  It's unfortunate.

Though also, if you guys had been trying to connect to the server, it was down for 2/3 of this week.  I had some issues with some other stuff that necessitated taking it down, and I didn't think anyone would care since no one seemed to be playing lately.  It's up again now, though.

[MysterD]

So, yeah -- how about they fix the freakin' Net code with this next update, too?

Oh, wait -- with the way Valve does things, that means the Survival Pack DLC might be out sometime after DNF...

[gpw11]

Wow, they haven't fixed the server thing yet?

[MysterD]

L4D Sales In The Stores
2.5 million copies of L4D have been sold at Retail Outlets alone on the PC and X360.

Steam sales digitally have not been figured into the above figure....
Geez....

I wonder how many copies of this have been sold over Steam, especially with all those deals in the past on this game....The buy 3 copies get one free special (the 4 pack) and that week they did the 50% off deal....

Valve discussion at GDC 09
Valve discusses how they test their games and why they end up so "polished."

[MysterD]

Here's some info on the Survival Pack that's coming sometime this week.

[Quemaqua]

Amazing, it only took them half a fucking year to release something new.

[Pugnate]

Fuck you Que. Valve fucking rock. They are the best. I love Valve.

Seriously though, while there is a bit too much hate for Valve on OW , it isn't nearly as unbearable as the crazy fanboy love I see on the internetsss...

Everytime there is a Valve related post on Kotaku, or on the PCGAMER podcast page, there are a vast number of comments talking about wanting to perform all sorts of sexual acts on Valve.

I seriously seriously don't get it. While I really do enjoy their games, why the @$!%! are they given so much credit. It is like they are Jesus or something.

And god forbid, if you make a well balanced criticism of them. There is a podcast I stopped listening to, because it would do all sorts of insane Valve hero worship. When I called them on it on their comments section (I wasn't even flaming them... I was just pointing out how the Half-life 2 engine has lost its looks, and how Valve takes years to release titles), they pretty much went batshit on their next podcast, singling me out.

I just don't get it. Even valid complaints against Valve drive normal people nuts.

[scottws]

I don't think it's fair to get on Valve's case for slow releases.  No one puts down id, and they are just as bad.  Quake III was released in 1999 and it wasn't until 2004 that id released Doom III and we are still waiting for their next game.

The fact is that it simply takes a long time to put together releases as polished as Valve and id (and Blizzard) do.  Plus, for better or for worse, Valve spends time working on Steam.

I'm not saying I would go to the grave defending Valve, but I don't think it's fair to single out Valve when they are far from the only guilty party and the other guilty parties are rarely singled out to the same level as Valve.

Edit:  LOL.  Valve doesn't do WoW.  I don't know why I said that.

[Quemaqua]

I'm sorry, but that's bullshit.  We're talking about a developer that released what amounts to three quarters of a game and can't even give it a proper update within 6 months, not to mention has the most broken fucking server tools ever, which they still haven't fixed and probably won't.  Valve is nothing like id or Blizzard, and their titles are nowhere near as polished.  Not by a mile.  I won't say their games are bad or that they aren't quality generally from a gameplay perspective, that's not really what we're talking about here.

[scottws]

I've never played L4D, but all the other Valve games I've played have had a very high degree of polish.

If I have any fault with them, it would simply be their attempt at episodic content.  The releases were simply too far apart for that to be successful.  I'm not a Steam fan, but I don't loathe it either.

As far as L4D goes... I don't know what to say.  It's been known from the beginning that the game was light on the amount of content out of the box.  Sure, Valve should have sold it at a lower price, waited longer to release it with more content, or tried to get more content out sooner but it isn't like there was a veil of mystery about how much content there was.

It's like buying a late 90's Mitsubishi Eclipse... yeah, you know they aren't very reliable but damn they are cool looking!  Just don't complain when its transmission goes out because it's virtually guaranteed.

The server tools... well I guess that's another story and I can't speak to that.  I don't run servers on my machine because my connection would make it laggy as hell so I don't look into that sort of thing.  That isn't to say that I don't acknowledge it as a problem, just that I haven't bothered to look into it at all.

[Pugnate]

Yea, in my experience Valve games are generally better, more polished than iD games. I don't think iD made a great game since the time when the time when it stopped being acceptable for a company to design a kick ass engine, and call it a whole game.

In terms of Valve taking a long time, I just mean the whole episodic content thing. I think Valve got away with a lot of bull there because they have a dedicated fanbase. Like how they term expansions as "episodes".

I don't think it's fair to get on Valve's case for slow releases.  No one puts down id, and they are just as bad.  Quake III was released in 1999 and it wasn't until 2004 that id released Doom III and we are still waiting for their next game.

I see what you are saying, but at least those companies are releasing new games.

I was initially going to say that Valve were "milking" things, but I guess that can't be completely fair. The Orange Box was pretty cheap for the content it offered. But I can't imagine playing Ep3. I am seriously tired of those 1999 sound effects, that I find sound terrible. The engine is pretty boring too, and I just don't see any other company releasing three shooter expansions on the same engine.

I do concede that the Source engine has been improved plenty, especially in terms of textures -- as evident from L4D and Portal, but the engine felt more tolerable because those games were completely fresh. While Ep2 was pretty good at times, my brain often went to sleep out of familiarity.

EFFFFFFFFFFFFFIXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (that's what that health recharge stations sounds like to me)

[Quemaqua]

Source has been stretched a bit far, I think.  L4D is not a particularly good looking game, though they did do an *exceptionally* good job on the player models.  They look fantastic and have tons of detail.  I don't think the rest holds up very well.  I mean, I'm not a graphics whore and I don't care at all because the game is fun, but a company without as many braindead zombie fanboys wouldn't be selling so many units on that kind of tech.

I continue to disagree that Valve makes more polished games.  I've made my points about what I think constitutes a good game before, so I won't go back into why I think HL2 is nowhere near as good as advertised.  But again, I'm talking in technical terms here, and the Source engine is not a bastion of stability or range.  I've had plenty of problems with it over the years, particularly when you couple the fucker with Steam, which is also mechanically broken.  And yes, L4D's server problems are both persistent and widely acknowledged, at least last I checked (which wasn't long ago, and there has been no significant update that I'm aware of).  In my eyes, L4D had more problems than Demigod, and Valve can't even give you a reason, where Stardock could tell you why and how.  Valve just refuses to acknowledge issues and won't fix anything when it breaks (which is why Steam is still completely broken for many users, like myself and idol).

Anyway, I don't dislike Valve for no reason.  I don't walk around the world trying to find things to piss me off.  I don't think they make bad games, whatever my preferences might be, and even if I think a game doesn't live up to the hype, that doesn't mean I don't think it's pretty great on the whole.  However, I hate them as a company.  I don't think they treat customers well, I think they talk a lot of shit that they can't back up, and I think they're utterly inept in certain areas and will never admit to the problems that causes.  If they went under I'd be tempted to throw a party, even though it would be a terrible thing for the PC games industry because of Steam's popularity.  I'd still be tempted.

[idolminds]

Actually, I get the feeling PC gaming would be in better shape in the long run if Steam went away. The last thing we need is vendor lock-in. Its already to the point where people wont buy a game unless its on Steam. Thats fucking bad. That will eventually lead to Valve calling the shots since, like Wal-Mart, you won't be able to cut them out of the picture if they give you a shitty deal. Not to mention that Valve does turn down games. Case in point, they initially turned down Braid. It went on to be praised and huge on Xbox so they changed their tune.

Valve makes some good games, I wont deny that. They are a little overhyped, though. I've never been impressed with the "physics puzzles" they've tossed into the HL2 series. The Episodes both have some areas you can see they wanted to stretch out the time played (EP1 had you run back and forth taking people to the train, EP2 had that antlion turret defense thing). Just things I can see people ripping on if it was anyone but Valve.

The Source engine is a bit of a joke, at least to me. 2004 HL2 released, 2010 is looking like when Episode 3 will be out. 6 years, same engine. Updated here and there, but for the most part it wont be terribly different. Thats the length of time between HL1 and HL2s release, and they had to build the engine (or at least the parts that weren't from Carmack). We went from UT2004 to UT3 in this time, Doom 3 to Rage (should be out by then).

I wonder when they are going to scrap it. Hopefully Episode 3 is their last Source engine game. I seriously think Valves artists are being constrained by it. The games look damn good and thats despite the engine, not because of it. If you let them loose on something more modern, let them really flex their muscle you would see some great stuff.

----

Anyway...yeah, L4D update. A new mode that modders would have made in the first week had an SDK been released, using a bunch of maps that are just parts of the maps we already have. Great.

[Quemaqua]

That's a good point.  I've argued the same thing about many politicians, recent and otherwise.  If they're popular and they fail, sometimes that's bad for the country... but in the long run, it may be better to get them out before they cause more damage to infrastructure.

If Impulse managed to get closer to being a true successor to Steam, then I wouldn't think it would be so bad.  People would have a good alternative to go to.  Even now it'd be nice to see Impulse get more users, but they aren't up to the same level as Steam yet as far as features and library to truly be a replacement for people who have a fucking IV line running from their genitals to Steam.

[MysterD]

I'd rather see Impulse succeed than Steam, as well.

Just imagine if GOG has their own New Games Club, as well -- and it followed the same format of NO DRM and NO Front-End Program necessary...

[idolminds]

I think these online stores just need to be more like...stores. Part of that is the publishers fault. Get your game on as many services as possible and let the gamer choose where they want to buy. Each service would then have to compete on usability and extra features. If they want me to buy on Steam, they'd have to improve Steam. Which would benefit everyone.

Buying games on Steam because "All the other games I bought are on Steam" is a lame answer.