Author Topic: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess  (Read 16977 times)

Offline idolminds

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CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 02:15:32 PM »
Says CoD4 dev dude

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On another PC related note, we pulled some disturbing numbers this past week about the amount of PC players currently playing Multiplayer (which was fantastic). What wasn't fantastic was the percentage of those numbers who were playing on stolen copies of the game on stolen / cracked CD keys of pirated copies (and that was only people playing online).

Not sure if I can share the exact numbers or percentage of PC players with you, but I'll check and see; if I can I'll update with them. As the amount of people who pirate PC games is astounding. It blows me away at the amount of people willing to steal games (or anything) simply because it's not physical or it's on the safety of the internet to do.
Does it suck? Yeah. However...how are they playing online on cracked keys? Don't they run an auth check like every other game? If they know they are pirated, why aren't those keys banned?

As a PC dev...can you really still be shocked that people pirate games? Honestly. Actually, I'd love to see the number of pirated 360 copies that are out there. But I imagine that is far harder/impossible to track without unique CD keys and the like.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #1 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 02:22:15 PM »
Maybe people just have some sort of issue paying 60 bucks for 4 hours of gameplay.  Just a thought.

Yes, yes, I know this is multiplayer, which is a different story, don't jump down my throat.

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Offline Ghandi

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #2 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 02:28:46 PM »
I still don't see how it is stealing. Who am I stealing from if I (hypothetically, of course) download a game? If I get it from a torrent, people are simply sharing the game with me.

Offline poomcgoo

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #3 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 02:48:14 PM »
What?  You're not paying for a product or service that otherwise costs money.  You're not sharing it because you're getting 100% of the product and the opportunity to use it any time and to any extent rather than playing it over a friend's house.  Not only that, but your friends' copies that you're having shared were also unpaid for.

I still do it, don't get me wrong, but it's definitely stealing.

Offline idolminds

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #4 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 02:50:41 PM »
Stealing involves denying another party of their property. This is a copyright violation, not stealing.

Doesn't make it right, but call it what it is.

Offline MysterD

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #5 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 03:13:02 PM »
I still don't see how it is stealing. Who am I stealing from if I (hypothetically, of course) download a game?
If you do it from (crappy-ass programs like) STEAM or any other places authorized online to buy the game-for-downloading legally, then nobody -- hehe. :P I'd guess you'd be cutting into "their" exclusive online-buy-to-play business or whatever.

If you do it illegally, I guess you're cutting into sales that are supposed to be going to places that have the authorization of selling the game legally to actually buy a physical copy from them -- such as Best Buy, Walmart, Amazon, etc etc. And, you're taking money away from Infinity Ward and their publisher Activision.

*shrugs*

I dunno...I'll take the stores over STEAM, since STEAM would require an Internet connection to at least authorize the game. When they come up w/ a better method of selling games online-to-download-and-purchase w/ better methods of protection -- especially for SP games -- let me know. :P


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If I get it from a torrent, people are simply sharing the game with me.
Right.
And you're not supposed to share (in this instance).
It's wrong to share (in this instance).

No illegal "gifting" of games allowed. :P

Offline scottws

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #6 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 03:23:42 PM »
My take:  pirating and stealing are two different things and are not equally wrong, though I will say that both are wrong.  Don't take that stupid video at the beginning of (store bought) DVDs to heart.

But yeah, how are people playing online with a pirated copy?  I thought that was the whole thing with pirating:  you could play the SP but not the MP.

Offline MysterD

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #7 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 04:50:19 PM »
My take:  pirating and stealing are two different things and are not equally wrong, though I will say that both are wrong.  Don't take that stupid video at the beginning of (store bought) DVDs to heart.

But yeah, how are people playing online with a pirated copy?  I thought that was the whole thing with pirating:  you could play the SP but not the MP.

Maybe somehow someone did an amazing job of hacking the MP game and found some sort of exploit, so that they could avoid such issues, if it's even humanly possible???

Damned if I know.

All I know, I'm waiting for this game to come down in price. I'll definitely get it, when it's in my price range.

Offline K-man

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #8 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 06:17:41 PM »
Maybe people just have some sort of issue paying 60 bucks for 4 hours of gameplay.  Just a thought.

Yes, yes, I know this is multiplayer, which is a different story, don't jump down my throat.

A 4 to 6 hour campaign that was tighter and more full of action than the comparable 10-15 hour fare we're used to seeing.  There's not a low point during any of the campaign.  It has to rank up there with being one of the best (If not THE best) single player campaign in the history of FPS.

Don't judge by the length, judge by the quality. 

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #9 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 06:36:38 PM »
I knew I should have kept my mouth shut.  I won't devolve this thread into that mess again.  Suffice it to say I look at both of your mentioned criteria, but a whole lot of one simply can't make up for a glaring lack of the other.  If I go to a restaurant and get a couple of tiny morsels of food, it doesn't matter if they're the best ever.  I'm still hungry.  5 hours of game is possibly a single sitting for me.  I can't pay 60 bucks for that even if I wanted to.

So... carry on with the piracy discussion.  We've all said our piece on the other.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline MysterD

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #10 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 06:58:22 PM »
A 4 to 6 hour campaign that was tighter and more full of action than the comparable 10-15 hour fare we're used to seeing.  There's not a low point during any of the campaign.  It has to rank up there with being one of the best (If not THE best) single player campaign in the history of FPS.
Games of episodic length should definitely be priced as such.

Any gamer into ONLY SP gaming would be definitely boned here. No matter how great the SP is, you could finish that SP in probably one damn sitting and then want to throw the game away; especially if the SP is linear and has only ONE ending to it.

Really though -- if you're spending $40-60 on CoD4, you better be into spending a lot of time on the MP action. And, there better be a lot to the MP out the box, too. Also, there better be an SDK released so maps galore can be pumped out, since as it seems that is the MP component will likely get the most length out of the gamer; since they seemed to take the Halo 3 route of "lengthy robust MP, not-so-much SP."

Does CoD4 have any Achievements on the PC version??? Many games like Valve's newer stuff and HG: London have Achievements, to extend some challenges out there for gamers out there....

Regardless, I'll defiintely buy CoD4, when it's in MY price range...






Offline Jedi

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #11 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 08:02:04 PM »
Games of episodic length should definitely be priced as such.

Any gamer into ONLY SP gaming would be definitely boned here. No matter how great the SP is, you could finish that SP in probably one damn sitting and then want to throw the game away; especially if the SP is linear and has only ONE ending to it.

Really though -- if you're spending $40-60 on CoD4, you better be into spending a lot of time on the MP action. And, there better be a lot to the MP out the box, too. Also, there better be an SDK released so maps galore can be pumped out, since as it seems that is the MP component will likely get the most length out of the gamer; since they seemed to take the Halo 3 route of "lengthy robust MP, not-so-much SP."

Does CoD4 have any Achievements on the PC version??? Many games like Valve's newer stuff and HG: London have Achievements, to extend some challenges out there for gamers out there....

Regardless, I'll defiintely buy CoD4, when it's in MY price range...


Speak for yourself only D.
I bought this game and I'm not alone when I say I don't feel "boned" by the SP and no I haven't touched MP it's just not my scene. I would pass on a 15 to 20 hour game that's got a weak story/gameplay/game experince to purchase a shorter 'tighter' experince such as CoD4. And if your busy laying down the law on how a game is priced, how but reducing a games price on how 'shit' it is seeing I'd pay 'full' price for this 'episodic length' game when it gives me such a tight kick ass experince while there's planty of crapy longer games out there at the same price?! They can't be valued at the same level as CoD4. Surely!

Offline gpw11

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #12 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 08:44:14 PM »
I knew I should have kept my mouth shut.  I won't devolve this thread into that mess again.  Suffice it to say I look at both of your mentioned criteria, but a whole lot of one simply can't make up for a glaring lack of the other.  If I go to a restaurant and get a couple of tiny morsels of food, it doesn't matter if they're the best ever.  I'm still hungry.  5 hours of game is possibly a single sitting for me.  I can't pay 60 bucks for that even if I wanted to.

So... carry on with the piracy discussion.  We've all said our piece on the other.


I hope you didn't pay for Rez.

Offline K-man

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #13 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 11:02:00 PM »
I knew I should have kept my mouth shut.  I won't devolve this thread into that mess again. 

You invited it with your original comment.


Anyhow, piracy=bad.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #14 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 11:29:50 PM »
Yes downloading torrents is piracy, which is stealing, and it is killing PC gaming.

If you look at the PC game sales figures this year, the stats are depressing. Only 3 or 4 titles actually sold more than 100,000 units. Most console titles are selling at least 500,000.

And D, I'd play the game before I open my mouth. The only people to complain about COD4 are the ones who haven't played it. It is one of the best titles you could hope for, and has great multiplayer.

Yes it isn't worth $50 for solely the singelplayer, but is that why its being pirated? As for multiplayer CoD4... there have been hacks released that allow private servers without cd keys. These servers are heavily populated, which is depressing. There are similar hacks for other AAA PC multiplayer titles.

To anyone who doesn't think piracy is majorly hurting PC gaming, wake up. Do some research, look at the stats. They've been discussing this at all the major publications, including the CGW podcasts for a few months now, and it has been openly discussed on the PC gaming forum. Big publishers and developers are talking about pulling out of major PC titles. EA (Big fucking loss right? Still its an example), has decided to stop publishing next gen PC versions of FIFA, Tigerwoods and other sports title that will come to the PS3 and 360. It isn't worth their effort, and they are now just porting freakin' PS2 versions.

Think of games like Company of Heroes, Crysis, UT3, Quake Wars etc. They've fallen far below expectations.

Crysis has sold less than 250,000 copies. CoH despite being a fantastic title out since 2006, has not even sold a million. UT3 has TOTALLY TANKED on the PC, yet has done better on the PS3. Quake Wars has tanked as well only on the PC. I am not saying the reason for all this is piracy, but unfortunately it is a big reason.

And for those saying console titles are as easily pirated, do what the guys at CGW did. Visit numerous torrent sites and just look up UT3 or COD4, and then compare that to the console counterparts. The PC versions are being pirated at 20 to 1, I am not even kidding.

Company of Heroes had zero copy protection, and was pirated up to its ass. When they released Oppsing Fronts, they armed it with all sorts of protection. Hell, OF made me uninstall CoH, so that it could verify its legitimacy.

In a recent interview, one of the guys at EA said that most people who finished Crysis had finished it with a pirated copy. He cited that as the major reason for poor PC games sales in general.

Here is a question IGN asked Cevat, developer of Crysis:

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IGN: How about the biggest failure?

Cevat Yerli: I definitely think that we need to continue to educate gamers about our settings. As we've been saying all along, Crysis looks and runs great on medium and high settings on gaming rigs that are 2-3 years old.

I also think we would re-examine our anti-piracy measurements. We don't know what the answer is, but we're going to look into all of the possibilities in the future.

This article kinda depressed me:

http://pc.ign.com/articles/842/842883p1.html

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So with all these great games released on PC this year, the question is: what the hell happened to the gamers? What's most troubling about the PC market is the sales numbers. The best selling game in North America, according to NPD numbers, was the World of Warcraft expansion pack Burning Crusade. That was the only game on the list that sold over a million PC copies this year and its base product World of Warcraft the only other game to pass a half-million sold. The next best seller, The Sims 2: Seasons, was down around 300k. And check this, of the 31 games that managed to sell over 100,000 copies this year, 21 of them were released in previous years and 11 of them were Sims products. Command & Conquer 3, Supreme Commander, Lord of the Rings Online, BioShock were the only games released this year to sell over 100k that weren't Sims or World of Warcraft related according to NPD.

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/08/07/id-piracy-killing-pc-gaming-market/

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Next Generation reports that at a QuakeCon Q&A, id Software co-owner Kevin Cloud put some blame on why developers are shying away from the PC market and turning to the slightly less-hackable console market.

Cloud is quoted as saying:

"Piracy is hard. It's really -- from my opinion, destroying the PC market. ... when you look out there at the number of games that are getting pirated, it is just devastating. It's the primary reason retailers are moving to the console. It's something that's on every PC developer's mind -- on how to reduce [piracy]. Because, if you like the PC, you hate to see it fall lower and lower down."

Todd Hollenshead, CEO of id, expressed similar concerns:

"... the problem that this industry faces above all else is the piracy. There is about seventy-percent of the landmass of the world where you can't sell games in a legitimate market, because pirates will beat you to the shelves with your own game. ... you may literally have more games being played illegitimately than being played legitimately. So when you're giving up that much market to people who aren't paying for the games, or who are buying the games in ways in which the developers aren't getting paid for it, it creates a big challenge. Not only for the developers and publishers. But also for retailers, because they have to make bets when they buy their game inventory."

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I still do it, don't get me wrong, but it's definitely stealing.

Absolutely. People need to admit that it is stealing.

On one hand you can pay $50 for a digital download, and on the other you copy it and get it for free. How is that not stealing? Is a property only worth value when it has physical mass?

Offline nickclone

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #15 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 11:38:10 PM »
Developers have always said that piracy hurts their sales, most people who pirate a game aren't going to buy it if they couldn't pirate it. I don't know where these companies get their numbers from (if they can clearly see the pirates on MP why can't they stop them?), but I think it's crap.

Theres a lot of games that get cracked and you can take them online, I used to play Battlefield 1942 that way. I don't know if it has to do with the particular game itself or the team that cracked the game.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #16 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 11:44:25 PM »
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Developers have always said that piracy hurts their sales, most people who pirate a game aren't going to buy it if they couldn't pirate it. I don't know where these companies get their numbers from (if they can clearly see the pirates on MP why can't they stop them?), but I think it's crap.

Bullshit. Sure, maybe a percentage wouldn't buy them, but most would. Console sales for the same games that tanked on the PC this year, are much higher. If you just simply couldn't pirate a single PC game, you'd definitely be buying more to satisfy at least the curiosity factor.

If console games were suddenly as easily piratable as PC games, you'd see sales figures drop overnight.

edit:

Also Nicklone, I apologize if that "bullshit" comment came off as insulting or anything. It was "bullshit" said in the friendliest way possible. :P

Offline nickclone

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #17 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 11:53:03 PM »
Bullshit. Sure, maybe a percentage wouldn't buy them, but most would. Console sales for the same games that tanked on the PC this year, are much higher. If you just simply couldn't pirate a single PC game, you'd definitely be buying more to satisfy at least the curiosity factor.

If console games were suddenly as easily piratable as PC games, you'd see sales figures drop overnight.

Its not just about piracy, I don't pirate any of the new PC games anymore. Its not because I don't want to, its because my computer can't handle it. I can't keep up with the spec requirements, having to update every few months isn't worth it. Thats why the console games are beating the PC versions, all you have to do is buy the system and put the game in.

Theres about eleven million Wii owners out there, I bet there aren't that many people with gaming rigs that could play most of the new games on the PC right now.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #18 on: Monday, January 14, 2008, 11:53:35 PM »
Pug, I have to agree with you.  My piracy stance is generally very lenient.  But in te case of PC gaming, I really do think it has hurt everyone, including us, the hardcore gamers.

Offline gpw11

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #19 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 12:12:02 AM »
I'd say I agree with both Pug and Nick on this.  It's the same issue as CDs.  Sure a lot of people who download CDs wouldn't have bought them in the first place, but I used to buy like 1-2 CDs a week, and now I rarely even buy that many a year.  A certain percentage of those people downloading games would have bought them if they had no other option.

But at the same time, Nick is correct in that the stats don't tell the whole story, especially when comparing them with console games which are harder to pirate and less complicated to actually play.  A lot of people just opt to play games on their consoles because it's strictly plug and play.  While statistics may say there are a lot of gaming PCs out there, there's a huge difference between a PC that can play HL2 and one that can play Bioshock, and if one's looking at their options to be able to play the later, the 360 sounds pretty enticing when it costs less then an upgrade probably would, and you're guaranteed games will run on it well for 3+ years.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #20 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 12:17:47 AM »
I'd second Cobra's above comment.  It's disheartening watching, for instance, Aquaria get pirated all over the place.  It's almost painful.  This will dictate whether or not the two guys who made it ever get to make another indy title like it ever again, and Alec has been very vocal about his frustration at how little they've made.

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Offline idolminds

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #21 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 12:25:18 AM »
I will say there are a lot more factors at work here.

Crysis doesnt sell well, but everyone knows its a system killer with its requirements. Whos going to pay $50 for something that, unless you upgraded in the last month, won't run very well? UT3 seems to have a similar problem. Also, those games came out during a very heavy game release season, both PC and consoles. Wallets are empty.

Sales numbers generally dont factor in digital sales such as steam or direct2drive. How many copies REALLY sold then? Hard to say.

Some games PC gamers are sick of getting shit on. Console ports of PS2 games? Gee, I wonder why those sold like shit. Even newer titles suffer from being multiplatform and "console-ified" in the eyes of PC gamers.

Packaging has gotten better with those double-thick DVD style cases, but theres still games in paper sleeves and a single sheet of paper with the controls on it. Whatever happened to nice cases and manuals? People are paying $50 and you don't even get a nice manual to flip through. Digital distribution costs the same and there you get nothing. Wheres the incentive?

Another thing is resale value. The industry doesnt like used game sales...but tough titty there. However, once you buy a PC game there is zero resale value. You've used the key, no store will take it. But console games are different. A gamer can go in, buy a $50 game, beat it, trade it in for $30 that they then use to buy another games, etc. Sale, sale, sale. PC games get none of that. Its full price every time.

Don't get me wrong, piracy certainly isn't good. It does hurt the industry (especially the PC side). I still question how many people, really, would buy the games if they couldn't pirate them. Theres plenty of people that play PC games simply because they can play them for free. Those people wouldn't buy the game in any case. Its just impossible to judge that, though...so whatever. I think it would be more people than not.

Offline idolminds

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #22 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 12:35:11 AM »
Speaking of incentive, as I said in IRC: Its obvious people want these games. They have the rigs that run them, and the time to download them. I wonder if there is some kind of incentive that developers could add to make people want a real legit copy over a pirate copy.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #23 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 12:38:55 AM »
Right Cobra. The piracy measures have not all been successful, and just end up being frustration for us, the actual buyers.

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Its not just about piracy, I don't pirate any of the new PC games anymore. Its not because I don't want to, its because my computer can't handle it. I can't keep up with the spec requirements, having to update every few months isn't worth it. Thats why the console games are beating the PC versions, all you have to do is buy the system and put the game in.

You are right, it is a wide variety of factors, but I feel piracy is the major one. Right now is the honeymoon period for consoles, but that lasts a year or two after release.

But sure, people like you, who can't run PC games properly, check them out for the curiosity factor. But I am talking about guys spending $600 on their video cards, and then pirating ten best selling games etc.

There needs to be a solution for this.

I personally like what Bioshock did. I can't think most people were inconvenienced by that measure, and the game sold well for a PC title. Initially it had 3 activations, that could very simply be reactivated.

Also it is highly unlikely that one would install Bioshock, have to format because of a crash, reinstall, format again, and then reinstall and format a third time to find his copy locked, while at the same time being totally unable to send out an e-mail to regain his activation. I am sure that happened to a few people but surely not the majority. I was surprised how that whole thing snowballed.

I am happy with the 5 activations. And it isn't like they can't be replenished either.

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I'd second Cobra's above comment.  It's disheartening watching, for instance, Aquaria get pirated all over the place.  It's almost painful.  This will dictate whether or not the two guys who made it ever get to make another indy title like it ever again, and Alec has been very vocal about his frustration at how little they've made.

Seriously? I had no idea. Now that's kinda depressing. What sort of scumbag would pirate an indy game? It is almost shocking because you'd think fans of that title are the ones that have been closley following the hardwork put into its development.

You almost think they should just go into a partnership with STEAM. I realize most of us here dislike it, but it has a more favorable base on the rest of the internet. Plus Introversion Software went from failure to success because of that online distribution.

What is funny to me is that people go to the cinema and pay $10 for a 2 hour movie. Most of these are college students are probably watch a movie in he cinema a week? These people can't pay twenty fucking dollars for a game like Aquaria?

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Crysis doesnt sell well, but everyone knows its a system killer with its requirements. Whos going to pay $50 for something that, unless you upgraded in the last month, won't run very well? UT3 seems to have a similar problem. Also, those games came out during a very heavy game release season, both PC and consoles. Wallets are empty.

I agree that there are other factors, but UT3 is very scalable. On my sister's 7950GT, it runs beautifully.

Sure there are a number of factors, but you'd think at least ONE AAA title would sell in big numbers on the PC.

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Sales numbers generally dont factor in digital sales such as steam or direct2drive. How many copies REALLY sold then? Hard to say.

Yes that's what PC gamers like myself have been telling each other for comfort. But some sort of unfortunate estimation was released on online distribution, and it isn't looking as good as people expected. I've read at a number of places that online distribution is accounting for 2-5% of PC gaming.

Here are some quotes from another forum:

Also, market analysts project digital downloads make up 3% of the PC games industry, and not one single company has come out to challenge that notion. Meanwhile, every single music download company that are making a smidgen of what itunes does jumped at the chance to have their sales included in NPD and the UK numbers. Why? Because they want every possible chance to show major labels that their business model is a viable one and to continue getting releases from them. Meanwhile, publishers are moving away from PC because they can't justify making games on the system that sells a tenth of the units, requires ten times the amount of testing, and is the easiest to pirate. No numbers are needed, even coming out and saying that 5% of Orange Box or Crysis sales were made through online distribution services would shock the industry to its core. And yet every single game download company won't say a word about how well they're doing. Meanwhile, PC Gamer magazine won't stop releasing their magazine with a disc because their market research continously shows that their audience don't download demos due to how big the files are. Which is in line with what Jeff Green said on the GFW podcast about how he was shocked when their research revealed a lot of their audience don't even have broadband or even visit gaming sites. Doesn't sound promising that these people are downloading 6 gig games off Steam.


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Theres plenty of people that play PC games simply because they can play them for free. Those people wouldn't buy the game in any case. Its just impossible to judge that, though...so whatever. I think it would be more people than not.

I agree, but at the same time you compare sales for games like Orange Box, UT3, Quake Wars, Need for Speed... tons of other cross platform releases and you will note PC versions outsold 3 to 1 or even 4 to 1. Sure it isn't all an indication of piracy, but people on the consoles are buying those games because they can't pirate them.

I just hope things freakin' pickup this year.

Hopefully with games like Spore, and Starcraft 2 other PC titles will gain momentum as well.

Quote
Speaking of incentive, as I said in IRC: Its obvious people want these games. They have the rigs that run them, and the time to download them. I wonder if there is some kind of incentive that developers could add to make people want a real legit copy over a pirate copy.

Like you said, better packaging is one. I think the only way most people will buy a game is if they can't play it for free.


« Last Edit: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 01:30:09 AM by Pugnate »

Offline Xessive

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #24 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 12:51:28 AM »
Geez, I'm glad I haven't contributed to the mess!


Offline Pugnate

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 12:59:17 AM »
haha...

I bet you woke up, and saw this thread, and were thinking... damn...

Offline gpw11

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 01:13:52 AM »
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What is funny to me is that people go to the cinema and pay $10 for a 2 hour movie. Most of these are college students are probably watch a movie in he cinema a week? These people can't pay twenty fucking dollars for a game like Aquaria?

The thing is that there is the incentive to pay the $10 to see the movie over downloading a cam or even a DVD screener.  You get the theater experience, and you can't really replicate that on your PC or in your home.  With video games you get he exact same thing for the most part if you pay for it or if you don't.  As for Aquaria, you're right - they totally need a deal with Steam or XBLA or something in order to get those impulse buys. 

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 01:27:04 AM »
I'll be the dissenting voice on the movie thing.  Frankly, I've just stopped going.  It isn't worth even a quarter of what they charge.  Noisy fucking people, ads before shows, dirty theaters... I'm done with that shit and have been for a while.  I'd much rather spend the money on a game.  I paid 40 bucks for Final Fantasy XII and have played it for 110 hours.  That's like fifty cents an hour or so.  5 bucks an hour to see a 2-hour movie?  No thanks.  And that's counting one ticket.  I normally have to pay for two since my wife comes, and she can play the same 100+ hours of FFXII as I can, which would bring the entertainment value to about 25 cents an hour.  Sweet.

Anyway, just a side note.  I'd been thinking a while ago about how though I love movies, I just don't do the theater anymore.  Yet I still buy games.

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Offline Pugnate

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 01:28:25 AM »
Quote
Most of these are college students are probably watch a movie in he cinema a week?

What the hell does that even mean?

Offline Xessive

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 01:39:56 AM »
haha...

I bet you woke up, and saw this thread, and were thinking... damn...
Haha this thread is like "That night, a forest grew..." hehe

My days of mass piracy are behind me now.. I am no longer a Chinese door-to-door pirated DVD sales guy.

Seriously though, I just buy games from developers I support, borrow from my cousin or friends, or just play demos.

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 05:58:50 AM »
Games of episodic length should definitely be priced as such.

Any gamer into ONLY SP gaming would be definitely boned here. No matter how great the SP is, you could finish that SP in probably one damn sitting and then want to throw the game away; especially if the SP is linear and has only ONE ending to it.

Really though -- if you're spending $40-60 on CoD4, you better be into spending a lot of time on the MP action. And, there better be a lot to the MP out the box, too. Also, there better be an SDK released so maps galore can be pumped out, since as it seems that is the MP component will likely get the most length out of the gamer; since they seemed to take the Halo 3 route of "lengthy robust MP, not-so-much SP."

Does CoD4 have any Achievements on the PC version??? Many games like Valve's newer stuff and HG: London have Achievements, to extend some challenges out there for gamers out there....

Regardless, I'll defiintely buy CoD4, when it's in MY price range...

God... you need to be banned. For like 10 days just to give you enough time to pull your head out of your ass.

Offline Xessive

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 07:23:11 AM »
I kinda agree with MyD on the episodic content pricing. Wasn't that the point of episodic games to begin with? That's my stance on expansions too. An expansion should cost no more than 60% of its Full counterpart's price. Some people argue that expansions should be half or less.

Honestly I'm just glad to see that lately there's been some stabilization in PC game prices.. Nowadays the average game goes for about $45, but I remember a few years back when the average game cost $70! (at least in Canada at the time). I remember around then Pug got me Crimson Skies for my birthday! That was awesome man! ;D I still remember the chicken wings we had too hehe I got hooked honey garlic :P Good times!

Any way, so long as game prices are reasonable I'll buy. I think the only real incentive developers have to worry about is making a great game. That'll keep a gamer like me coming back for more. Any little extras are appreciated, which is why I generally buy Epic games too! Those bonus packs, although little, mean a lot.

Offline scottws

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 08:19:46 AM »
UT3 has TOTALLY TANKED on the PC, yet has done better on the PS3. Quake Wars has tanked as well only on the PC.
Piracy may be a factor, but I'd say it's more likely that it's because it is a graphical update of a game with stale gameplay.  I mean how different is it really from UT2004?  And PC multiplayer gameplay has simply changed since UT was the big thing.  I know TDM and DM still has its fans (like Que), but I think many more peoples' interest has shifted into the more modern game modes.

Bullshit. Sure, maybe a percentage wouldn't buy them, but most would.
I completely disagree.  I haven't pirated anything in a long time, but I used to have a pretty sizable collection of ISOs.  We're talking like 200 GB.  And that was just what was on my hdd and the time that I hadn't burned off to disc.  I probably played 50% of the games I had ISOs for at all, 20% of them for more than a few hours.  I probably would have bought 10% of them if piracy wasn't a possibility.

Console sales for the same games that tanked on the PC this year, are much higher.
You bring up an interesting point, and that point actually contradicts what you are trying to say.  Console versions of PC games are selling much higher and PC game sales are declining.

More PC games are available on console than they were in the past.  Has anyone considered that the mere fact that a console version exists in the first place is cutting into PC game sales?

I don't want to act like piracy isn't a contributing factor, but it isn't the only factor.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 09:28:46 AM »
I think one of the primary things to keep in mind, scott, is that your own time-tested piracy habits (we all have them to some degree -- no sense dodging the fact, right?) are not necessarily like the habits of everyone else.  I know a lot of people who play games and play them regularly for long periods of time yet don't pay for anything.  These are the same people who never buy DVDs, but order copious amounts via Netflix and rip+burn them for their collection once they get them.  Make no mistake, just because there are some guys who download stuff simply because they can doesn't mean that most do it for that reason.  I think at least 50% would have bought the game if they couldn't just snag it on a torrent, and the rest are composed of those who simply habitually download, who want to try it first as though it had a demo, or who are almost sure to buy it later but want it ASAP (I've been in the latter category a lot).  Obviously that's an estimate, but I've spent enough time amongst groups like this (remember that I have a Blackcats account and have been on several other private trackers... mostly for old games that are impossible to find or ridiculously expensive when they should be friggin' public domain by now).

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Offline scottws

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 10:19:41 AM »
Well ok, but your anecdotal evidence carries just as much weight as mine.  The real truth is probably somewhere in the middle.  It's just that I always scoff at those "lost sales" figures.

1 pirated copy ≠ 1 lost sale.  End of story.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #35 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 10:27:29 AM »
No, definitely, I'm not arguing against that.  I agree with you and the general idea that many people who pirate stuff wouldn't have bought it anyway.  That said, I don't think the average pirate is like you used to be, downloading stuff just because he can.  There are plenty who do, but I'd say they're in the minority.  That doesn't mean some of the *other* people downloading don't also fall into the category of people who wouldn't have bought the game... I'm just saying I think you have to be very careful in how much you assume this is the case.  There are certain cases where you can really see the negative impact in terms of sales of a game when there's a lot of buzz and a lot of people are playing it actively for good chunks of time, yet sales have been bad.

EDIT - To expand on the Aquaria problem, which is a bit unique, there have been maybe 20 people who've waltzed into the official forums and said "Hey... I'm going to be honest.  I totally pirated your game and I really did love it, and I would totally buy it too if...".  This is another problem that extends beyond just that one scenario.  It really, really sucks for Bit Blot, but there are a lot of people who will buy a game, play it through and enjoy it until the end, then say that it was lacking one thing or another so no, they won't buy it.  That's garbage.  I can kind of understand this argument in terms of length, as I've already talked about CoD4's length and why that's totally prohibitive for me at it's price point, but I still don't think that gives me the right to go download it.

However, I do wonder if this isn't a serious reason people pirate some stuff.  I just made a quick offhand comment before, but I think there's something worth thinking about there.  A lot of you seem to think that the fact that a game is short couldn't possibly be a factor in anyone's thinking, but I think that's really just your own refusal to acknowledge that yes, it does matter to a lot of us.  Seriously, how many of us just borrowed console games from a friend back in the day?  A lot of us still do.  If I wanted to check out CoD4, I'd borrow a friend's copy.  Renting is an option too, but borrowing is free.  With games that are only a few hours long, I often wonder how they expect to last when they can simply be rented or borrowed and then beaten in a night or two?  The incentive to buy just isn't there unless you plan to play something multiple times, but considering how heavily scripted a lot of these more modern games are, it's not the no-brainer purchase that it maybe sometimes used to be.  Again, I come from a long history of buying games.  I spend way, way too much money on them.  It wasn't until much more recently that I've started to balk and what I'm expected to pay for what I get, because even if the quality is there, quantity has a lot to do with it (I haven't even broken down to pay $20 for Portal because it's so short).  For me that certainly doesn't mean I'm going to run out and pirate something every time, but for a lot of people I'll bet it does.  When you've been used to years of getting games that granted 10+ hours of game at the very least, 5 almost starts to sound like a joke.  I've made exceptions for games that I felt were absolute works of art, such as Ico, but I think it's safe to say everybody here can see why that's a very different beast.  Same with games like Contra and shmups that may ultimately be very short, but also cost less and subscribe to a very different design philosophy in terms of challenge and playability.

Anyway, I still think it's something worth thinking about.
« Last Edit: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 10:56:15 AM by Quemaqua »

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Pugnate

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #36 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 10:53:25 AM »
I don't think 1 pirated copy equals a lost sale either, but like you guys said, it is adversely affecting in some manner.

Also I understand the need to collect. Back when Mp3s were the new thing, I had collections of mp3s that I never listed to. I just had them for the sake of it.

Still if you go to these UT3, Crysis and COD4 torrents, and you see tons of comments filling pages upon pages in the comments section, you will realize that these people aren't grabbing these games out of a need for some fulfillment. Most of these guys are complaining about the endings, or the lengths, which makes one realize that they aren't just pirating out of curiosity.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #37 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 10:59:22 AM »
Most of these guys are complaining about the endings, or the lengths, which makes one realize that they aren't just pirating out of curiosity.

Heh, I edited my above post before you said this.  But yeah, that's kind of what I was saying on both points.  I don't think it's right to be like "Oh, I'd buy this game if the ending didn't suck or if feature X was included, but since that's not the case, I'm just happy I pirated it," but that seems really common, and while I haven't specifically seen a lot of length complaints myself (I haven't exactly gone looking), it seems logical that a lot of people would be upset about it.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Pugnate

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #38 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 11:03:11 AM »
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I totally pirated your game and I really did love it, and I would totally buy it too if...

I don't know why that makes me more upset than stories about other budget games pirated. I guess its because they aren't a big company, and.... it just fucking sucks.

Offline Xessive

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Re: CoD4 pirated....a lot, I guess
« Reply #39 on: Tuesday, January 15, 2008, 11:55:37 AM »
I agree with Scott, 1 pirated copy does not equal 1 lost sale. Y'know those things you'd never buy but if you got a free one (or somebody got you one) you might consider using it? There are some games I never would have experienced if I didn't get them for free (gifts, offers, piracy, etc.), basically games I'd never buy myself. I'm not condoning piracy by any sense, I'm just confirming that it is inaccurate to assume that 1 pirated copy = 1 lost sale.