Topic: Chris Taylor and Peter Molyneux join the death of PC gaming chant

[Cobra951]

I read some of that thread, until it started to degenerate into the usual argument about piracy, morality, impact, etc.  I have no idea what SupCom is.  It could be this guy is following the money.  Would you blame him?  Anything good and even not so good sells in boatloads on the popular consoles.  He was commenting about how well the multi-threaded SupCom runs on the multiprocessor 360.  The compromises that need to be made are not perceived to be as big a deal as they once were, to move their projects from PC to consoles.  More money, lower artistic losses, FTW?

[Pugnate]

I wouldn't blame him. Who doesn't like money? What angers me is this whole justification of piracy. If I can buy legit games sitting here, what is stopping these guys. And like you said, perception is reality. Even the guy from Relic, who did Company of Heroes, Homeworld and Dawn of War, talked about priacy being an issue. Yet people just don't want to admit it. This whole thing is a sorry affair. Everyone is angry at Taylor, but no one is upset with the pirates.

And SupCom is the game he made, Supreme Commander.

That's it. I am selling my PC, and am getting a 360. Come on K-Man, show me some games.

[Cobra951]

I wouldn't blame him. Who doesn't like money? What angers me is this whole justification of piracy. If I can buy legit games sitting here, what is stopping these guys. And like you said, perception is reality. Even the guy from Relic, who did Company of Heroes, Homeworld and Dawn of War, talked about priacy being an issue. Yet people just don't want to admit it. This whole thing is a sorry affair. Everyone is angry at Taylor, but no one is upset with the pirates.

And SupCom is the game he made, Supreme Commander.

That's it. I am selling my PC, and am getting a 360. Come on K-Man, show me some games.

I wouldn't say they aren't mad at the pirates.  More like the pirates are there to stay, like bad weather--so why bother discussing how to waste time on impossible attempts to eradicate them?  Better to spend the time on figuring out ways around them, where everyone gets what they want--good games and money.

If I could afford to, I'd buy your PC off of you. 

[MysterD]

If Taylor is really so concerned about piracy on PC gaming, he just needs to talk to Valve -- who are pretty good at stopping pirates, since they really do have so much control over their STEAM games and STEAM servers.

STEAM is pretty good at stopping "Zero Day Piracy."

EDIT:
About Taylor talking about gamers buying high-end vid cards and downloading games illegally, I believe it. Many college students I knew at college back when I was in college would do that -- they'd buy the $500 vid card, but they would DL the game illegally somewhere.

[scottws]

Why is everything this guy is saying big news?  I've never even heard of him.

[Quemaqua]

I don't even like him.  He hasn't made anything that didn't fucking suck in years.  I can't be arsed to listen to what he has to say.

Also, Steam games get pirated like anything else, you just have to wait a little while.  But it happened with Half-life 2 and it happened with Portal and it'll happen with everything else.  It's just another example of how intrusive copy protection doesn't actually do anything.

[MysterD]

Why is everything this guy is saying big news?  I've never even heard of him.

I think it's b/c he's a PC game dev' that might be planning to do more of his games for the consoles.

[13:50 - 16:15]  Whether piracy is really the cause or not, these guys conclude that it is, and are taking evasive action as a result.  So it may as well be completely true.  Perception becomes reality.

Of course piracy is an issue.

The other problem here is the dev's and publishers are not coming up w/ good ideas AND good execution to combat them. So, they come up w/ ridiculous Protection schemes (StarForce and the newest Securom that dials up) that alienate the legit gamers, making them possibly turn rogue to pirate the game so they don't have to deal w/ the crap protection, the legit gamer will boycott their game, or possibly even BOTH.

[16:34 - 16:53]  "Even our system requirements are insane.  Really, forcing people to spend $1000 to $3000 for the privilege of playing your game the way it's meant to be played--we're limiting our potential markets . . ."

Yeah, hot everybody can afford to have a Intel Duo Core, GF 8800 GT 512 MB, 3 GB RAM, and Win Vista.

To me, graphics are NOT everything. In gaming, that has been the biggest thing that is always changing. I mean, really -- what was the most innovative game we've seen on the PC for a game? Any brand new genres pop-up b/c of ONE game?

I understand the dev's want to give us the best eye-candy they possibly can, but do we really need that great eye-candy if they can't even get the game run good? I think the way a game is meant to be played is at a good resolution where the game itself looks at least good AND technically runs great. Maybe, just maybe, they should aim more so for the mid-range specs and below out the box. After the game's already a well-oiled machines -- maybe in a patch, they can add techs and features to try and cater to the high-end gamers?

[18:49] "We're creating this problem, but we're prisoners of it."

B/c instead of Chris Taylor, dev's, and publishers coming up w/ good solutions that are done with good execuction to solve their problems, they don't change ANYTHING to benefit the consumer. They just leave things as is; piss and moan; and keep doing the same thing or even worse for the consumer.

EDIT:

Also, Steam games get pirated like anything else, you just have to wait a little while.  But it happened with Half-life 2 and it happened with Portal and it'll happen with everything else.  It's just another example of how intrusive copy protection doesn't actually do anything.

Right, you have to wait a "little while" -- usually, Valve does well when it comes to "Zero Day Piracy" (to letting the game not get pirated like crazy anytime before the game's official street date is) b/c of the way they have STEAM work.

Valve likes keeping that "Zero Day Piracy" down b/c they want the PC gamer to just go and decide to spend full price on it, as soon as its officially released. Yes, they want lots of sales at a very quick rate.

[idolminds]

Chris is a little odd. First question is about RTS as a genre falling by the wayside as they become more complex and cater more and more to the hardcore RTS players, leaving new players out in the cold. The Relic guy I thought was very insightful, stating that theres a difference between complexity and depth and devs seem to confuse the two and add more complexity. Chris, however, mentions piracy first. WTF? Thats not even the question.

Though I like the thought on system requirements. I know I've got a lower end system right now so of course it would directly benefit me. But I think this is something I've said for a while. Make your games run on lower end systems. And not "run" as in turn everything off so it looks like shit and still only get 15fps, I mean run as in runs well and still looks good. That opens up your audience to more people. Releasing on PC is already limiting, why limit it further to only those with high end rigs?

[Pugnate]

Yell you one thing. I can understand the Relic guy bitching, but why was Taylor? What did he expect from SupCom? Yes the game was built on a huge budget, but it had very little artistic beauty to. Secondly, the game is a very hardcore RTS. It isn't like StarCraft, WarCraft or Command & Conquer, that tons of people can easily get into.

I think when you make a hardcore niche focused RTS, then you shouldn't expect more than a few million sales. The fact that you made it so difficult to run on most machines just means you cut your potential market further. In the end, the horsepower wasn't even worth the visuals.

Also, Steam games get pirated like anything else, you just have to wait a little while.  But it happened with Half-life 2 and it happened with Portal and it'll happen with everything else.  It's just another example of how intrusive copy protection doesn't actually do anything.

D, I never said that.

On the subject though, they seem to suggest that the most sales are lost because of piracy in the first week.

[MysterD]

Whoops, that was from PCG's boards and wasn't from you.
Hell was I thinkin'?!?!?!?

Remind me to never post on two boards at the same time again!

Sorry about that one, bro.

[Pugnate]

Ummm...no... it was from these forums. It was from Que.

[Xessive]

Ungh, watch the next step of copy protection involve biometrics!

[Pugnate]

I am sorry sir, your sperm sample did not match the rightful owner of this software.

[idolminds]

More

"Flash is the next console," he posited. "It's pointing its way to the future more than the next generation of consoles," with capabilities increasing dramatically over the next 12 months. "Retail PC is in dire straits, but... the web is kicking the console industry's ass."

Gas Powered's Chris Taylor seemed to agree that, at very least, digital distribution of any kind is the way forward, saying, "PC gaming as we know it is dead... secure gaming is the future."

Ex-Sony exec Phil Harrison concurred, saying, "There is a generation of kids who are already on the planet who will never ever buy physical media," to protests by EA's Neil Young that "I don't think it's that simple and you'll get to choose."

"No it will not," said Harrison, who later said he thinks this is the last generation where physical disc media in a case is the primary means of delivery, and that the business model will have to change.

This is the last gen with physical media as the primary delivery method? A bluray (being the new "standard" format) holding 50+GB of data...and you're going to have people download that shit? Get real.

[gpw11]

I've heard that before, probably from the same guy in a different interview. It's bullshit, especially with ISPs getting very close to implementing download bandwidth caps (ala cellphone min.) and throttling techniques. 

[Pugnate]

PC gaming as we know it is dead? What, Taylor plans to bomb all the developers coming out of Europe?

And I doubt very much physical media is dead. I think people still very much like holding what they own.

[scottws]

If people want to bitch about system requirements, bitch about Flash.  That is the most poorly optimized system I've ever known.  It's way too CPU intensive for what it does.

Anyway the disappearance of physical media isn't likely to happen until we have like 1 MB/s down pipes in everyone's homes.

[Cobra951]

It's like I've stepped into an alternate reality last couple of days.  Go back to two-button controllers?  Flash is the replacement for consoles?  WTF?!  Could these guys be further off in left field if they tried?  Flash is years and a complete dev-team overhaul away from ever being capable of anything like that, let alone the internet infrastructure.  Is the air in those ivory towers too thin for those guys' brains, or is there something they see from up there that we can't?

[K-man]

Today's PA

 A week or so ago, I read over Steven Totilo's off the cuff interview with Cliff Bleszinski, who is also known as CliffyB, and is still sometimes called Clefairy B. In it, Clifford makes a few personal observations about the PC as a gaming platform - namely, that it is schizophrenic in its focus. The industry itself apparently agrees, but it hasn't spared him any heat. Epic's Liar-King Mark Rein scuttled out from a rotting log to do some damage control, but noone on the Internet remembers anything for more than a week anyhow. It's wasted effort.

This "heat" I referred to, and it is not difficult to find, ranges from the merely rankled to full on psychotic episodes. To an outside observer, it must look like Stockholm Syndrome. It's hard to imagine that there are those who still see the PC as ascendant, and not merely one option available to gamers, an option fraught with costs in time and treasure that not every person feels like fucking enduring when they get home from work. The rationalizations at play in these threads are feats of such liquid mental agility that I wish we could put these minds to work on renewable energy or on the fabrication of advanced polymers. There are profound advantages to a hand-built, precision twiddled machine, running a (relatively!) wide open OS - I've done so for well over a decade. It is this generalized potential that Sony has done their best to emulate in their latest console foray. But it's certainly not the only true way to amuse yourself with electronics, and by dismissing the fixed gaming platforms you are actively sabotaging your own happiness.

You can't point to Valve's success - as so many do in these threads - and claim that the entire PC market is doing incredibly as a result. Valve is a single company. Valve isn't even a developer, in the traditional sense - it's a development environment, where by some bizarre alchemy newly hatched auteurs are thrown together with the best gaming humorist who has ever lived, and a few months later they deliver a three hour experience that overshadows the output of an entire industry. They worked on Team Fortress 2 for eight years. The 1.5 million sales of Orange Box on the console are, to them, something like a rounding error. Their software platform virtually defines digital delivery, community, and user created content. This is simply not what life is like for most developers.

Team Fortress provides an excellent example, actually. We started playing TF2 once our shit was out of the way recently, and there was a problem on Gabe's machine where the game won't run fullscreen. Yes, I checked the dropdown. Listen to my story: after updating this, and changing that, and looking up some other shit, and then rebooting, I was able to make it work. Mostly. "This is why I don't play games on here" he suggests lightly. And why should he not say this? How had we been enriched by the act? Not all toil is virtuous. Some toil is just regular old slavery.

[Quemaqua]

It's funny, because he goes off on rationalizations and using the same old arguments, but he's doing the exact same thing in reverse.  It's just another post spouting the same stuff everybody else does.  I still say these arguments are pointless and nobody is ever going to change anybody else's mind.  Even the PA guys, who I think are generally intelligent and often insightful, are repeating the same lines about it.  Nobody has anything new to say and they never will until something major changes.

[Pugnate]

Well the PA guys have stated several times dating months back, that they are frustrated with PC gaming and what not, and I think Tycho went on to say he hated how difficult PC gaming was.

I think this is just a case of finding stuff to support your dislike.

[gpw11]

You know; I don't really see why anyone actually cares all that much. Like, it's not that big of a deal.  PC gaming will never fully die, and if the bulk of developers move to consoles, buy a console once to thrice every four years.  Really, with HD tvs and all that jazz, there's not as big of a difference as there used to be.

[Pugnate]

http://www.developmag.com/news/29331/The-PC-market-is-not-dying-says-newly-formed-PC-Gaming-Alliance

He offered up stats on the US and worldwide PC games market, saying the former (not including casual games) in 2007 generated $2.76bn revenue, a year-on-year rise of 12 per cent, accounted for 30 per cent of gaming revenues in the territory, and was set to make $9.6bn - a rise of 16 per cent - in 2008. For the global games market the figures were $8.3bn in 2007, up 14 per cent, with 2008 revenues set to be $9.6bn, up for 16 per cent.

There are 263 million onlne PC gamers worldwide, added Stude, saying it was proof that the PC gaming market's death has been greatly exaggerated.

[gpw11]

The best way to avoid economic catastrophe is to restore consumer confidence.  Anyways, this whole thing is cyclical. 

[Pugnate]

cyclical

Definitely.

[K-man]

Well the PA guys have stated several times dating months back, that they are frustrated with PC gaming and what not, and I think Tycho went on to say he hated how difficult PC gaming was.

I think this is just a case of finding stuff to support your dislike.

Actually, it's a case of posting things relevant to the conversation and generating discussion.

[Pugnate]

I was referring to PA's comments that have been consistent with their other thoughts through out the year, where they've taken anything negative to support their views, while ignoring positive news.

I wasn't directing that at you, if that's what you meant, which I am actually not sure of.  

[K-man]

Ah, I completely misunderstood you.  Sorry about that.

[Pugnate]

'tis OK. I can see how you took it that way after our... 'ahem... debates. Honestly, I am pleased this thread retains your interest. I don't mind the discussions continuing.

As for PA, I have heard them say plenty of times that they've started to hate PC gaming. I actually think it was Tycho, -- I probably shouldn't be grouping them together -- who has said many a time that his problem comes from all the tweaking, time wasting, and the crashing etc. I can see why he says that, because these guys seem extremely busy, and given the choice, they'd rather spend their free time gaming seamlessly.

At the same time, I remember when PA strongly disagreed with IGN's Assassin's Creed review.  They felt it was more of a game that needed to be enjoyed at a leisurely pace, rather than be rushed through at a pace that only reviewers on deadlines work. I think some of that holds true for PC gaming as well. To do it right, you need to be a bit more relaxed both in terms of state of mind, and time.

Just a recent personal story. A few weeks ago, it was the last Sunday of a major holiday here, and I invited my cousins over for a LAN party. I had three computers hooked up. One was mine, one was my sister's, and the third was my office work PC. Basically we had about six hours, and two of those precious hours were wasted with bullshit. I had forgotten that I had added a new sound card to my sister's PC without installing the new drivers, and basically spent the first hour trying to reinstall the old card drivers without realizing it was a different Creative card. Then the next hour was spent with us screaming at Gears of War, which wouldn't recognize the second PC on LAN.

Turned out that one couldn't play GoW CO OP PC LAN, unless signed on the internet with GFW Live. That I found absolutely ridiculous, having paid $50 for the game, and having wasted an hour on patching, and restarting. Despite my obviously pro PC stance, I kept thinking, I wouldn't be having these problems on an Xbox 360.

In the end it was all worth it. We rocked out with Company of Heroes on LAN, as well as SupCom, UT3 and Rainbow Six: Vegas. It was all amazing fun at a level that I could never experience with a 360, on a TV shared with my opponent. And some of the problems setting it all up, were just stupidity on my part. But some weren't, and that's when I really started to hate GFW Live.

Anyway the point of all of this is that I can see where Tycho is coming from, because part of my frustration that day stemmed from having a limited amount of time. As a working professional, some of the hiccups of PC gaming are harder to swallow. At the same time, these guys seem so busy, that I think they probably have a far lower tolerance level.

By the way, I found this fucking hilarious.



That's two PA comics I have LOL'ed at in the past month.

[scottws]

I have none of the problems Tycho mentions as far as issues.  Maybe his PC sucks and has a problem.  It's not like there aren't 360's out there that are breaking left and right.

The only problem I ever deal with is patch management.

[Pugnate]

He mentioned having an 8800GTX computer etc. I think his primary concern seems to be 100% convenience.

[Cobra951]

Consoles can break.  PCs can break.  That's a separate issue, even after Microsoft's botch job on the original 360 design.  The issue being discussed here is the time cost to get a game working right across the board.  No one here can deny the extra time and aggravation investment the PC takes.  When there's no good choice, everyone will put up with it.  When there is, only those who are passionate about PC games will put up with it.

[K-man]

I think his main point was the fact that years ago it was worth it to go through and 'deal' with a PC in order to get a superior gaming experience.  Now we can boot up a console and 'settle' for a little less quality and not have to worry about compatibility (360 death notwithstanding). 

Ultimately I'm just glad to have the choice.

Admittedly I haven't purchased many PC games in the past few years.  One I made a point to purchase was Civ IV (and both expansions).  Very excited for the game.  Got it home, installed it, and fell victim to the graphical glitches that plagued the unpatched version.  I was so damn frustrated with the game.  All of that got ironed out, but man there's nothing worse than getting a bright and shiny new PC game home that you've literally been waiting YEARS for only to have it not work properly on a high end system.  But shit like that has to be acceptable in PC gaming, if only for the sheer fact that developers have to accommodate for so many hardware setups.

[scottws]

Consoles can break.  PCs can break.  That's a separate issue, even after Microsoft's botch job on the original 360 design.  The issue being discussed here is the time cost to get a game working right across the board.  No one here can deny the extra time and aggravation investment the PC takes.  When there's no good choice, everyone will put up with it.  When there is, only those who are passionate about PC games will put up with it.

I vehemently disagree.  What aggravation?  I guess if you equate installing a game to aggravation, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Sure, I suppose there are exceptions like Crysis which take some fiddling to get working with acceptable speed.  But that is no where close to the norm.

Admittedly I haven't purchased many PC games in the past few years.  One I made a point to purchase was Civ IV (and both expansions).  Very excited for the game.  Got it home, installed it, and fell victim to the graphical glitches that plagued the unpatched version.  I was so damn frustrated with the game.  All of that got ironed out, but man there's nothing worse than getting a bright and shiny new PC game home that you've literally been waiting YEARS for only to have it not work properly on a high end system.  But shit like that has to be acceptable in PC gaming, if only for the sheer fact that developers have to accommodate for so many hardware setups.

I'd be putting on blinders if I didn't admit that EA uses consumers upon release as beta testers, but that stuff isn't totally isolated to PC games.  The Wii version of GH3 has mono sound even thought it's advertised to have Dolby Pro Logic II.  Ask Que about that one game on PSP that gave him fits.  Madden '07 on 360 is full of tons of graphical glitches and guess what?  They never got patched.

Look, I can admit that PC gaming has disadvantages.  I'm not going to put hardware because there are upgrade costs with consoles too in terms of purchasing new ones and accessories.  You have ease of use, the fact of installation, patches, and potential hardware incompatibilities.

But there are advantages too:  better visuals possible, better performance possible (generally), possibility of user-created content and modifications, vastly cheaper, better control options

[K-man]

I'd be putting on blinders if I didn't admit that EA uses consumers upon release as beta testers, but that stuff isn't totally isolated to PC games.  The Wii version of GH3 has mono sound even thought it's advertised to have Dolby Pro Logic II.  Ask Que about that one game on PSP that gave him fits.  Madden '07 on 360 is full of tons of graphical glitches and guess what?  They never got patched.

Look, I can admit that PC gaming has disadvantages.  I'm not going to put hardware because there are upgrade costs with consoles too in terms of purchasing new ones and accessories.  You have ease of use, the fact of installation, patches, and potential hardware incompatibilities.

But there are advantages too:  better visuals possible, better performance possible (generally), possibility of user-created content and modifications, vastly cheaper, better control options

The upgrade costs aren't nearly as much on a console you buy every 5-7 years.  Hell, I've got the cost of 3 ps3's in my PC right now, and it's nowhere NEAR top of the line any more. 

Sure, you'll get an occasional shitty/buggy release on console, but surely you're not denying the problem is more prolific on the PC side of things.  As far as the wii version of Guitar hero is concerned, they're replacing the discs free of charge.  I realize that the resolution to that problem is a shitty one, and it should never have happened to begin with, but it is a solution.

Plus, most of those buggy console releases aren't the fault of the hardware, but most likely the victim of shitty development.  PC games kinda get a pass because they have to combat so much hardware.  But a  buggy game on a console shouldn't happen.  If it does happen it's going to be 99% of the time due to negligence on the dev's part.

I agree with you on the advantages.  In fact I never denied these facts.  Although the better control option thing is debatable, depending on the game.

[scottws]

The upgrade costs aren't nearly as much on a console you buy every 5-7 years.  Hell, I've got the cost of 3 ps3's in my PC right now, and it's nowhere NEAR top of the line any more.

Would you use a PS3 for the exact same things you use your PC for?  If yes, then you have a point, but I'm guessing the answer is no. 

Plus, most of those buggy console releases aren't the fault of the hardware, but most likely the victim of shitty development.  PC games kinda get a pass because they have to combat so much hardware.  But a  buggy game on a console shouldn't happen.  If it does happen it's going to be 99% of the time due to negligence on the dev's part.

Same as with a buggy PC game.

I agree with you on the advantages.  In fact I never denied these facts.  Although the better control option thing is debatable, depending on the game.

What I really meant was in most cases you have the choice to use a gamepad or a kb/m.  So if a gamepad is better for a certain game, it's trivial to use one.

[Pugnate]

The upgrade costs aren't nearly as much on a console you buy every 5-7 years.

If you bought the 9800pro at the time of the Xbox, it doesn't mean your 9800 is performing any less. It can still run Oblivion to the best of its abilities at low settings, which is more than the first Xbox can do. With the PS3 you are stuck with its tech for its lifespan. Isn't that the same with a video card? The 8800GT even five years from now will continue to be able to run games at the same level as a PS3... well maybe not, but you get what I am saying. 

In terms of hardware value, PCs find it more difficult to compete because console manufacturers are willing to sell their systems at a loss. A loss they recoup as technology gets older and cheaper to manufacture, as well as with higher priced games.

Console games typically are $20 more than PC games. I'd say in the life time of a console, you are buying thirty games? (Unless it is Nintendo, which is when it is maybe one ). I think my brother bought a total of thirty for his Xbox and PS2. So in a life time, aren't you basically paying back the money you saved on the hardware?

Sure, you'll get an occasional shitty/buggy release on console, but surely you're not denying the problem is more prolific on the PC side of things.  As far as the wii version of Guitar hero is concerned, they're replacing the discs free of charge.  I realize that the resolution to that problem is a shitty one, and it should never have happened to begin with, but it is a solution.

Yup there is no denying that.

[K-man]

I buy more used games than new, but point taken.

I won't generally spend 60 on a game unless i'm chomping at the bit for it on day one (cod4, halo 3, etc)

Generally I'm out 30-45 for a console game.

[K-man]

Would you use a PS3 for the exact same things you use your PC for?  If yes, then you have a point, but I'm guessing the answer is no. 

You jest, but since I finished graduate school my PC usage has devolved into basically surfing the net, checking email, posting on messageboards, and playing games - All of which could be done with a PS3 at this point in time.

Not to say that I prefer to use the PS3 for computer-related things.  But if the PS3 had a better interface in that regard I'd probably consider it.

[Cobra951]

Come on.  I'm not some spin meister here, trying to undermine PC gaming.  But why do I have to defend or justify something we all know already?  You pop open a console's tray, slide the disc in, close it, and it works.  It works every time, as long as the hardware works, and the disc is readable.  With a PC, you're lucky if installation is the end of the chores.  I'm not going to fucking argue anymore.  I thought we all stood on the same ground here, shared common experiences, and had come to like conclusions.  Guess I was wrong.