Author Topic: Sicko  (Read 7886 times)

Offline Cobra951

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Sicko
« on: Tuesday, April 22, 2008, 11:48:57 AM »
Sicko is the most important film I remember seeing.  Clearly, Michael Moore is going to stack the deck in his favor as far as he can.  Any director or writer would, when trying to drive home a point.  But even with all possible skepticism serving as a shield, this movie will drive its point into you.  The American healthcare system is not just broken.  It is a criminal enterprise.  Moore provides perspective from other successful western countries--Canada, England and France.  Then he shocked me with one more, not so successful, and at least in politics, not so Western--Cuba.  It must be seen, particularly by Americans, and definitely before November.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday, April 22, 2008, 12:05:02 PM »
I can't help but think that the movie brought the healthcare system back into the national conscious. There is a lot of criticism of Michael Moore, some well founded and some not, but this movie definitely dealt with an important topic. This was one of the rare movies where I went home and did research after watching the movie to see if everything checked out.

Offline poomcgoo

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday, April 22, 2008, 12:13:24 PM »
I've taken 7 separate classes on the ethics, marketing, management, financing, delivery, and the regulations and laws of the health care system.  I've never seen the movie, but I'm interested to see it now.  I know Michael Moore is a bullshitter, but the health care system truly is fucked up right now more than ever so I'd like to see a movie by him that actually supports a subject that does matter.  If you're a taxpaying American, it should matter to you too.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday, April 22, 2008, 05:49:03 PM »
I agree that things are fucked up, but I will never, ever see or support anything from Michael Moore.  That fat fraud should be shot in the face with a fucking rifle and left for wild animals to devour.  That said, I think you'd have to be crazy to disagree with the fundamental point that our health care system is a huge problem.

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Offline Ghandi

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday, April 23, 2008, 03:06:32 PM »
Well I guess you can call the HMO's crazy then, because they will disagree all the way to the bank. I don't think that any significant change will happen with our healthcare system for at least a decade. There are too many vested interests in the current system.

Offline poomcgoo

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #5 on: Thursday, April 24, 2008, 06:03:25 AM »
Depends on what you mean by "significant."  I see a LOT of change happening and very soon.  If it doesn't, then the problem will be exponentially worse.  I think people are starting to realize this and take the issue more seriously now.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #6 on: Friday, April 25, 2008, 10:09:17 PM »
Your health care is fucked.  Ours generally is too, but less of a "we now own you...bend over" sort of way and more of a "You've been paying into this bit by bit for your entire life just like everyone else and we've used your money in some of the least efficient ways possible.  As such you're now waiting in our understaffed hospitals for 9 hours for a doctor to pull a foreign object out of your arm, 11 hours with a shattered hand, and your MRI isn't getting done for approximately 12 months.  Please live that long and remember: having a non-public option isn't fair to those who can't afford it" sort of way.

As it is, I think our system is better because I can break my leg tomorrow and not be financially ruined for a few years.  But there's a cost involved in that and while the American system is absolutely fucked and needs to be regulated and rebuilt, I don't know if a public system like we have here would be the best for such a large country with far less of a social welfare structure and mentality than the political culture here has bred over generations.

I need to see the movie, and back when it was on television I saw the TV nation segment (as well as read about the backround for it in the book) it's based upon, but at the same time I still totally can't stand Michael Moore because of his argument style (and also for more superficial reasons).

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #7 on: Saturday, April 26, 2008, 12:03:19 AM »
I don't know if a public system like we have here would be the best for such a large country with far less of a social welfare structure and mentality than the political culture here has bred over generations.

What, the mentality that we are fucked either way (don't pay and you are fucked medically, pay and you are fucked financially)? Our system works brilliantly if you are wealthy. Unfortunately, the majority of the citizens in this country aren't wealthy. The idea that another system wouldn't work is absurd. The reality is, it's going to take a very long time to change the system. It's one thing to score political points by talking about changing things and it's another to actually implement them.


Offline beo

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #8 on: Saturday, April 26, 2008, 05:10:08 AM »
i'd just like to chime in with the fact that our healthcare system ain't great either. waiting lists are ridiculous and the level of care given is pretty shitty. if you do something like just break your arm, you'll normally get it sorted out within a couple of hours - but for more complicated, non vital stuff, such as hip replacements, back surgery, etc, you'll be waiting months.

like gpw said about canada, the budget here is handled terribly too. our government put in place a centralised NHS database that went massively over budget and doesn't really work. it cost the tax payer around £16bn at last count, yet we have a huge shortage of doctors and nurses because they keep getting laid off and are forced to accept pay cuts due to a lack of funds.

for those who can afford it, private healthcare is still an option here. so if you have got a series of health problems that need serious attention, you have the choice to spend a bit of money to get a superb level of treatment at very short notice.

anyway, i don't think there's any doubt that the medical system in the US needs radical change, whether or not americans will be willing to pay for the tax increases is another matter. i mean, stuff like this borders on communism!

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #9 on: Saturday, April 26, 2008, 12:08:04 PM »
That's the crux of it though:  When you break something or are in danger of dying, you will get timely help.  That's not the case here.  The one contrast I remember best from the movie involved two guys who sawed off parts of fingers accidentally.  The American was told it would cost him $60,000 to reattach the middle finger and $12,000 to reattach the tip of his ring finger.  He chose the ring finger.  He couldn't afford to keep his middle finger.  The non-American guy cut off several fingers, and they were reattached free of charge.

Nothing is perfect, but there's humane and inhumane.

Edit:
Quote
anyway, i don't think there's any doubt that the medical system in the US needs radical change, whether or not americans will be willing to pay for the tax increases is another matter. i mean, stuff like this borders on communism!

The movie covers this.  The USA has socialist/communist institutions, like the fire department and public schools.  Some things are too socially important to leave up to profiteers.  Once upon a time, fire brigades were private, and yes, places burned to the ground because of money issues.

Offline poomcgoo

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #10 on: Saturday, April 26, 2008, 04:20:14 PM »
Obviously the problem with America's health care system is money, and like Ghandi said, it works if you actually have money.  There are so many different options for how you want to pay for and receive your healthcare, but a lot of them suck.  There are certainly choices that are affordable to someone with a steady job and that I personally would choose over a "better" system like Canada's, but that's where our system truly fails because it doesn't account for people who don't have the money to pay for insurance.  Uninsured people who need care can't be turned down for treatment and seeing as our billing is not cash-based as in countries like Mexico, these uninsured people get the care they need and dodge the bill.  The only thing the hospital or care provider can do at this point is cross their fingers and hope these people pay for their care at some point before they die. 

This accounts for a monumental loss of everyone's money and it is only a small part of why our health care costs so damn much and why it won't be getting any cheaper.  It seems like there are some good ideas out there on how to fix this, but most of these good ideas are fundamentally flawed to the point where it actually hurts the industry even more.  Examples?

-In Massachusetts they recently made it necessary to have health insurance if you live in the state.  Awesome, step in the right direction, no?  Well the penalty for not having insurance is a massive fine.  So poor people who can't afford health insurance now owe even more money before they can pay for their insurance.

-Hospitals are incredible moneypits, and are among the biggest losers in the industry.  What to do?  Cut costs of course -- trim what things you don't need to run more efficiently.  Hospitals are being built right now without emergency rooms.  The biggest money loser in every single hospital is the ER so they're beginning to cut them.  Smart financially, stupid in every other respect.

It's not like I have any good ideas, but damn I'd hate to see where things are headed in the next 20 years if nothing changes.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #11 on: Sunday, April 27, 2008, 12:49:07 AM »
What, the mentality that we are fucked either way (don't pay and you are fucked medically, pay and you are fucked financially)? Our system works brilliantly if you are wealthy. Unfortunately, the majority of the citizens in this country aren't wealthy. The idea that another system wouldn't work is absurd. The reality is, it's going to take a very long time to change the system. It's one thing to score political points by talking about changing things and it's another to actually implement them.



No, I'm not saying you're fucked either way at all, I'm just saying that Americans are probably going to have to look at things a lot differently in order for universal health coverage to come into effect and actually be effective in any way.  Most countries that have beneficial health care systems are far more social-welfare oriented than America, and while it is true that you do have public education and services, look at the state of your public education.  It's fucked and not because of a lack of resources (look at the American GDP and the american GDP per capita), it's fucked because of the allocation of the resources and mismanagement.  Now multiply that by a thousand and throw in a ton of lobby groups.

I say it's hard in America because of the socio-political culture that doesn't put a strong social safety net as high on the priority list as many other countries do.  Hospitals didn't start here as for profit businesses.  They started as private or public institutions who's entire purpose was to provide medical care to those who could not otherwise obtain it through private doctors. Because of that change wasn't necessary for many years, and when it was there were no major objections because it just made sense.

It should, however, be pointed out that 'public' (technically it's not) care here was implemented rapidly because it was done so by province before the federal government got involved in any way.  I don't know about most federal countries with universal health care, but chances are it worked the same way.  Talking about it is all good and fine, but there's really not all that much to discuss, public funds are either allocated towards a regulated health care system or they're not.  Once that's covered, the specifics of it are most likely pretty complicated but should be able to be worked out quickly.  The fact is that you're going to piss a lot of people off doing it rapidly, but the less time you give special interests to corrupt the system before it even starts up the better.  All you need is a politician with the balls to say "fuck you, all your taxes are going up a bit, we're cutting spending in this unnecessary area (military) and reallocating it here, and you may have to pay a small yearly or quarterly fee.  This government agency is now regulating all health care practices and pricing and this one over here is acting as one giant medical insurance company...without the profit."

That's why I say a system such as ours might not work out so well there.  I'm not saying you're fucked either way, I'm saying that there's probably a different and more suitable (for your country) way to actually implement any sort of government funded medicare in the US.

The thing to keep in mind is that medical spending takes up over 10% of our GDP here.  Not only are you ten times the population, you also have a far far far higher obesity rate and over twice the percentage we have of people 'overweight'.  Any sort of universal coverage opens up the doorway to new sin taxes, not those based on elasticity (booze, gas), but those based on deterrence. 

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #12 on: Sunday, April 27, 2008, 12:51:57 AM »
Obviously the problem with America's health care system is money, and like Ghandi said, it works if you actually have money.

If by that you mean so wealthy that you can pay for medical care directly, out of your own pocket, then you're right.  But the movie is primarily about the 250 million Americans who are insured.  The HMOs are raping them with denied coverage due to a multitude of manufactured reasons.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #13 on: Sunday, April 27, 2008, 02:06:27 AM »
All you need is a politician with the balls to say "fuck you, all your taxes are going up a bit, we're cutting spending in this unnecessary area (military) and reallocating it here, and you may have to pay a small yearly or quarterly fee.  This government agency is now regulating all health care practices and pricing and this one over here is acting as one giant medical insurance company...without the profit."

There are plenty of politicians saying that. In fact, both of the democratic nominees are basically saying that. Granted, their tax hikes are currently directed towards the wealthy (and Barack even promises to even lower taxes for the middle class, although his cop out is that there is a varying definition for middle class). But the point is, it's one thing to say it. I could promise that it would rain chocolates and happiness and get elected, but delivering on that promise is another thing entirely.

Do I think that another system will eventually be implemented? Absolutely. But the next administration is coming into office with so many fucking problems that all of them will not get addressed. How are we going to get out of Iraq? How are we going to let OPEC realize that these fucking ridiculous prices for oil are only hurting them in the long run? I mean, what better way is there for us to realize that we need to get off oil than for them to drastically raise the price of it? Don't they realize what they are doing? And the amount of money that we are borrowing from China is staggering. Quite honestly, all of these problems need to be addressed before we deal with health care, because we need to figure out how we are going to pay for it.

I see reform in the current system, and I see some changes. But anything drastic is not going to happen for at least 8-10 years.

Offline poomcgoo

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #14 on: Sunday, April 27, 2008, 06:06:39 AM »
If by that you mean so wealthy that you can pay for medical care directly, out of your own pocket, then you're right.  But the movie is primarily about the 250 million Americans who are insured.  The HMOs are raping them with denied coverage due to a multitude of manufactured reasons.

Well if that's the case then, again, Michael Moore is missing the point.  There are bigger issues with our health care and people being screwed by their managed care org. is not only old but usually exaggerated.  Yes, there is truth behind them fucking us over, but that isn't the reason why our health care is failing so incredibly right now.  Then again it makes sense Michael Moore would focus his movie on how Americans are getting fucked over by their shitty American government (sic) rather than how the whole system is fucked from the start.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #15 on: Sunday, April 27, 2008, 12:07:06 PM »
But the current government interests are the same as the corporate interests.  One hand washes the other.  You can't accuse one of corruption without pulling in the other.

Have you seen the movie?  The only way Moore missed the point is if he's lying or was lied to.

Offline poomcgoo

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #16 on: Monday, April 28, 2008, 04:45:31 AM »
Well you may have gotten the wrong impression.  I feel like it's more about how badly thought-out most of our policies are and how a lot of money is lost beyond anyone's control due to some of the current regulations in place, rather than corruption (which is certainly prevalent, don't get me wrong).

Offline scottws

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #17 on: Monday, April 28, 2008, 07:26:50 AM »
HMOs are a problem, but does anyone remember what it was like prior to HMOs and PPOs?  I remember my mom taking me to the doctor because of a bad cough and sore throat.  The doctor came in, looked at me for like 10 seconds, and said "It's a viral infection.  There's nothing we can do.  Buy some Robitussin.  Oh, and by the way you owe us $75."

The $20 co-pays were and still are a lot easier to swallow.

Edit:  The healthcare industry is a mess, but I think a bigger and more fundamental problem is that science itself has become commercialized.  No one searches for a fix or a cure anymore.  Now they search for treatments in order to maximize profits.

A Wired article recently said grants are given out a lot more frugally lately, and basically no one is studying "normalcy" anymore.  They said there's all these new diseases that are being discovered and they have markers, but no one knows whether or not these markers can exist in someone without the symptoms of the disease or the disease itself because no one can get a grant to study a normal person.
« Last Edit: Monday, April 28, 2008, 09:29:20 AM by scottws »

Offline poomcgoo

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Re: Sicko
« Reply #18 on: Monday, April 28, 2008, 04:40:59 PM »
Good point.  There is less incentive to cure disease now because of the money situation (see a common theme?).  Drug companies are barely breaking even on breakthrough drugs because R+D costs are through the fucking roof.  Every drug developed spends a MINIMUM of 10 years in development and even in clinical trials nobody can be sure how the drug will work on a human body.  Imagine spending 20 years and a billion dollar coporation's bankroll on the development of a new wonderdrug only to have it fail miserably due to some unforeseen interaction or problem.  What do you do at that point?

Contrarily, say the drug hits with success and the company is riding along on their patent for a solid 8 years.  They recoup costs by the time the patent is out (which is rare even), and then every biotech out there wants to manufacture the generics.  There's no more revenue coming in that pipe, so maybe there's an international market?  No -- patent laws are just that -- laws in the good US of A.  Why should Canadian (example) companies wait for the patent to run out to push this new drug?  These companies are losing money hand over foot and there is little incentive to keep going other than the science behind it -- which is only driving a select number of healthcare "professionals."  It's really a shitty situation.