Topic: Modern game consoles suck

[scottws]

I broke out the ol' 360 for the first time since moving because I got GTA4 today.  I get it all hooked back up, fire it up, and pop in the game.  A dashboard panel pops up saying I need to download an update before I can play the game.

Well, this is a problem since I sold my 360 wireless adapter a couple months back.  I mean what the fuck?  Did I need a DirectX fucking upgrade to the 360 or something?  Why can't I just fucking pop the disc in and play?  Crazy.

I lugged it all upstairs and plugged it into my router and got the update.  Of course, since it's Microsoft, the damn thing had to reboot on top of it all.

[scottws]

Nice... RROD.  Suck it, Microsoft.  Suck it.

[idolminds]

Oh man, that sucks.

[scottws]

Warranty Status: Out of Warranty

[Xessive]

Shit.. That sucks man.

The new consoles are freaking me out now. I can't imagine anything close to this ever happening back in the days of SNES and Megadrive (Genesis), or even the Saturn and PS1.

[scottws]

Well I called, apparently that website reports the original 1 yr warranty.  The 3 yr extended warranty you hear about is only for the RROD, and I qualified for that.  Still, that means what... 3 weeks?  This blows.

I knew something was wrong with it the moment after I began playing.  After it updated, I brought it back downstairs and plugged it in.  It kept freezing on the 360 splash screen.  It did that about four times.  Then it loaded but froze right after it showed all the cartoon characters.  The sixth time, it worked, and I played it for about an hour until it froze again.  That's when I got the RROD.

All I can hope is that console manufacturers have learned their lesson and won't try to pull the same shit Microsoft did with the 360.  I mean it is a hunk of junk.

[idolminds]

I used to really want a 360, but now I'm going to hold off until the system gets a total redesign and reports of red rings disappear.

[Cobra951]

That's 3 of us now, in our little group (or is it 4?).  It further supports my belief that every single 360 without correction to the original design will fail completely and prematurely--not 33%, 100%.

I'm sorry about that, man.  MS seems to have the process down to a science.  Call support, have them set up a repair order under warranty.  (All 360s are still under RRoD warranty.)  They'll send you a "coffin", an empty box with packing material, sealing tape, and a return UPS label.  Remove absolutely everything from the 360--HDD, memory cards, power supply, and of course the game disc.  Send only the bare console.

It took less than 3 weeks for the whole process with me.  The box got here quickly, and I shipped it the same day.  I got a replacement back, which is both good and bad.  The good is that the DVD drive is much quieter and better behaved.  The old one was starting to have problems and make a racket on some games.  Also, it's likely that at least the cooling system has been improved (or so I hope).  The bad is that now I need to be tethered to mama Microsoft in order to play XBLA games I've bought.  Those must be "dongled" either by the original console, or the XBL service.  I think there's a way now to transfer licenses, but dealing with support about it was a waste of time during the one call I made, and I've been too lazy to try again.

[K-man]

Welcome to the party.

[Cobra951]

I now have this image of Scott backing away in a bullet-ridden cop car with a body on the hood, trampling over shrubbery.  Yipee cayey, mother hubbard.

[MysterD]

Shit.. That sucks man.

The new consoles are freaking me out now. I can't imagine anything close to this ever happening back in the days of SNES and Megadrive (Genesis), or even the Saturn and PS1.

Yeah, I can't recall these kind of frequent problems on the old school consoles, either.
Biggest problem I recall was blowing inside of the Nintendo and NES cartridges to get a game going.

I had the iris get jarred and burnt out on the Original PSX once, but that was pretty much it. Got that repaired; never had a problem since.

[Quemaqua]

Damn man, that really sucks.  I'm with Cobra that I believe all 360s will eventually just up and fail well before any reasonable timeframe, and I'm also deathly afraid that mine isn't going to die while the extended warranty is still valid, doing it afterward instead.  I don't even fucking like the machine that much now that I've got a PS3, and I certainly don't want to spend however much money buying another.  I've been tempted to try and melt the thing myself just so I can get it repaired before I'm out of luck.

[scottws]

Honestly... I would I think at this point if I were you.

[gpw11]

Do it.  Doesn't that towel thing work?  You have a PS3 to keep you occupied anyways.

[Quemaqua]

I'm just afraid that maybe something else will happen instead and I'll somehow screw it up, I guess.  It just sort of seems in bad form to destroy your own console, which is of course stupid since they were in bad form to give you a busted ass piece of equipment... but you know what I mean.

[scottws]

I know what you are saying, but if you don't do it, I guarantee you get the RROD at some point and you'll be kicking yourself because it's out of the three year warranty.  The problem supposedly is the heatsink on the Xenon-era 360s is nowhere near sufficient, and the way the lead-free solder was applied causes the joints to break as the motherboard bends.

I can't think of a situation where someone that has a Xenon would be exempt from the problem happening.  I feel like it's not a matter of if, but when.

When it happened to me, I was playing with my 360 in the upright position (better airflow, supposedly) on the tile floor part of my basement.  It's very cool in my basement.  And I was only playing an hour.

I think those three year warranties start expiring this year.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, that's why I'm starting to consider it.  I'll probably just bite the bullet and do it at some point soon.

[Cobra951]

Hope for the near future, but really only for new customers.  I don't imagine these will filter down as replacements for dead units for a long time still.

[scottws]

It's about damn time they went 65nm.  As if the racket and heat generated by the current 360 aren't indications enough...  Plus haven't CPUs and GPUs in the PC market moved to 65nm years ago?  There are already whispers of 45nm processors coming out next year.

[scottws]

I just walked out of the UPS Store on Glenway Ave.  The girl behind the counter was like "go ahead and set that here on the scale.  I know they want you to have a receipt for that.". I was like: "Who?". She said, "Microsoft.  For the Xbox 360s."

Its just a plain white box.

I noted that she recognized the box and she responded, "Oh yeah.  I see 10 or 15 every day."

Wow.

[Cobra951]

Haha.  I told a similar story (in the "F Microsoft" thread).  The guy said he sees about 3 of those a day, before I said anything about it.  To be sure, I asked him what he thought it was.  "Xbox 360."

[sirean_syan]

That's insane. How is this sort of thing profitable, again? They're still loosing money on each console built, right?

These sorts of stories were a large part of the reasoning that went behind my choice in the PS3. There may still be rough patches in the games that end up on the system, but at least I we haven't heard stories of every system out there failing.

[Cobra951]

There's no way anyone here would have bought into the 360 had we known the design was fatally flawed.  The problem is that now I'm into it completely, with over 20 games plus the XBLA stuff.  I could buy a few spare 360s for what it would cost me to sell everything at a loss and then get a PS3 and the same kind of game library.  If I were choosing between them right now for the first time, there's no doubt I'd go for the PS3.  As it is, I'm committed.  Once enough revisions fix the botched design, it will all be good again.

[K-man]

That's insane. How is this sort of thing profitable, again? They're still loosing money on each console built, right?

These sorts of stories were a large part of the reasoning that went behind my choice in the PS3. There may still be rough patches in the games that end up on the system, but at least I we haven't heard stories of every system out there failing.

I think they're starting to come close to breaking even on consoles.  The xbox division is finally making money.  Microsoft considers the xbox brand as a long-term investment.

Microsoft attempted to create a console as cheaply as possible.  It just so happened that there was a flaw.  I think they're doing everything reasonable to remedy the situation.  Sure, it was inconvenient to be without my console for a few weeks.  I was pissed just like everyone else the RRoD has happened to.  However, I'm not short-sighted enough to think that it was by any means intentional on Microsoft's part.  The only thing I fault them for is waiting so long to admit there was a problem.  I mean there was more than enough evidence long before Microsoft actually got around to admitting it.

From a reliability standpoint, I have been very pleased with the PS3 so far.  It still has a long way to go before the experience is as streamlined as it is on the 360.  There are a lot of shortcomings with the console. 

[Quemaqua]

Not in my book.  I've barely touched my 360 since I got the PS3, and I don't plan on buying any more cross-platform games for 360 without good reason.  I was down on the PS3 for a really, really long time, but I've definitely changed my tune.  Sony's got some things it needs to deal with, but as far as the actual console goes I've got zero complaints.

But seriously, who intentionally fucks up their own product?  I'm sure we can all agree the 360 failure thing was an accident that resulted from trying to squeeze out a cheap product, and we know why they did it for all the flack the PS3 got for being so expensive.  But the problem isn't even just that the issue exists, but that we can assume it will affect nearly every manufactured unit.  The issue is just too big now.  It's good they fessed up to it and are providing the extended warranty, but these defective pieces of shit should have just plain been recalled.

[sirean_syan]

I'm not saying Microsoft intentionally made a faulty console, but you can blame a company for cutting corners, or at least cutting corners where it matters and getting bit in the ass for it. Also granted they'll fix the thing for free now, but these stories started to come out of the woodworks not long after the system launched. They might not have known immediately and for a while it seemed like isolated incidents, but you can't deny that they knew something up not long after the launch. I'm curious, have the Elites had problems? Those came out not long after it seemed that the red ring became a fairly common occurrence. Have there been any real changes to the systems itself aside from all the returned systems?

But yeah, I'm sure no one here willingly bought a 360 expecting it to die. Had I not jumped back into school I probably would have broken down and bought one for Gears last year too.

[gpw11]

I think all three companies have been barely skirting this problem for maybe the last two generations, and Microsoft just happens to be the one that finally went a bit too far cutting costs.  A lot of people have had problems with the PS2 laser, which was basically specifically developed to cut costs in DVD players and consoles.  No where near as widespread, but I remember hearing a few people running into it a year to two years out of the starting gate, and it's been a problem with one of the ones in my house as well (to be fair, it is a near-launch unit and it's to be expected with anything like this).  Same with the Xbox and some of their drives.  Actually, Nintendo seems to do it right, so lets keep them out of this. 

The 360 problem is miles above anything from last generation, but I guess this kind of had to happen eventually. That doesn't make it excusable, maybe even less so.  I think from now on both MS and Sony will be testing sub contracted parts more thoroughly and probably be reconsidering giving contracts to the lowest bidders.  Good, QC should be number one.

The thing I wonder though, is how much of this is just a general design flaw that's actually some engineering fault, and how much of this is just lead-free solder? It's still somewhat of a question mark, even though lead based is fully banned in some places.  I don't think they use it in medical equipment right now, and I think other critical electronics (boat/plane computer systems) are also still using fully lead based solder.  That seems to say to me that it's a big question mark.

[Ghandi]

It's good they fessed up to it and are providing the extended warranty, but these defective pieces of shit should have just plain been recalled.

It was a recall, essentially. "Extended warranty" is just good PR for what is a recall. They know that most will fail within the three years if they are used enough. For all the second-hand reports we get on here for the amount of units recalled, they have the actual numbers. They just don't want the bad press (or the worse press, as it is).

[Quemaqua]

But it isn't a recall because it's dependent upon your system actually failing, which for a few of us has not yet happened, which means our units may last just long enough to die and leave us no recourse.  That's not a recall.

[ren]

I just bought mine but with a three year Best Buy warranty. Hopefully when it fails the equivalent of the PSTwo is out which solves the problem.

When I first put in GTAIV my 360 wasn't connected to the internet and it said it had to update. I said ok and a few minutes later it just started the game. I assumed whatever was updated just happened off of the disc. The console was manufactured in March though which is fairly recent. Maybe it didn't need the entire update?

[scottws]

The thing I wonder though, is how much of this is just a general design flaw that's actually some engineering fault, and how much of this is just lead-free solder? It's still somewhat of a question mark, even though lead based is fully banned in some places.

From what I understand it's a combination of a grossly insufficient heatsink and lead-free solder that wasn't applied at the proper temperature.

[poomcgoo]

I think everyone I know with a 360 has had the RROD.  No exaggeration, I can count 10+ people, myself included.  How many of us here have gotten one? 

[scottws]

I know of Cobra, myself, Pyro, and K-Man.  Actually, did Pyro get one?  I thought his issue was something else, like not being able to play XBLA content.

[Quemaqua]

I think Pyro had two RRODs, if I remember right, plus the additional problems with XBLA content and stuff.  Frankly, I don't know how he can even still play the thing.  I'd be so mad I'd probably go to some corporate office or other and jam it up somebody's ass.  Mine hasn't even failed yet and I'm infuriated by the situation... I don't think I could deal with multiple failures.

[K-man]

Yeah Pyro got a RRoD the day he got his console, which most likely means it was defective to begin with.  The second was resolved, but once he got his console back he couldn't play any video content.  Took weeks to convince microsoft there was a problem.  They sent him a coffin..got it back like a week later.  Problem wasn't resolved.  He utilized his Game Crazy warranty and got an HDMI unit.

As far as still being able to stomach using it, there are great games on the 360.  A majority of the multi-platform games are still better on the 360 than the PS3.  The PS3 has some pretty solid exclusives, but I'm not sold on multiplatform offerings by a long shot.  Plus, the fact that the XMB and games are so disconnected turns me off to it.  The fact that I can't initiate a voice chat with someone aside from going (and staying) in a chatroom is ridiculous.  I should be able to access functions via the PS button in-game.  The UI needs a ton of change.  Hopefully that'll come soon, but with Home being delayed yet again I don't see it happening for a long time.

[Quemaqua]

Well, I disagree with you as you know.  I really just hate the 360 interface completely and find the PS3 far more comfortable.  Granted I don't know about voice chat (I hate listening to people talk) or any of that stuff, but for what I've used the system for, I find the PS3 superior.  The Playstation Store still needs some work, for sure, but I can't say I ever cared for any of the Xbox Live stuff either.  I don't think either is particularly intuitive.

I don't have a ton of cross-platform experience, and while past games may have had more issues on PS3, I think that will change now that people are getting used to developing for it.  The four games I have for it that I could have gotten on 360 are all perfectly fine, and in the future as long as there isn't some glaring problem with a PS3 release, it's going to get the nod over the 360 every time because I know the console won't explode and leave me unable to play it, and because the multiplayer will be free.  That last is a big deal.

[Cobra951]

Some people still refuse to accept it.  They get vocal about it too.  They need to watch Yahtzee's take on fanboys, I guess.  MS doesn't need defending.  They do fine on their own.  How many of us got 360s?  Maybe the better question is, who has one that never pissed itself and died?

Honestly, you're coming on very strong on Sony's side.  I find it surprising.  I can't judge how good the PS3 is.  I don't have one.  But while the 360 works, I have no problem with it or its UI.  It works very smoothly, and does what it needs to do.  It's fairly well organized under the blades.  The games I've gotten were all worth what I paid, some a great deal more to me.  If they deal with the crap hardware design, I have no complaints.

Speaking of which, the weakest-link question is a good one.  I brought up lead-free solder once before.  I remember that being shot down at the time, the argument being that if it's applied correctly, it will do the job just as well.  Something about temperatures.  Of course, if it has more finicky requirements, cost gets into the picture.  And if they're cutting costs, well, you get my drift.

Heat was an acknowledged challenge since the system was introduced.  The form factor is too small for the amount of heat that needs to be dissipated.  Extra cooling is needed.  I read that in an interview with the designer, on the XBL website itself.  I wonder if it's still there.  He was saying that the problem was solved, though.  Clearly it wasn't.

[Quemaqua]

I find my siding with Sony surprising, too.  I think they made some huge blunders and I was very vocal about my dislike of them a while back.  But the fact is, now that I have both to compare to, I think the PS3 is far and away the better of the two systems.  Now a lot of this is strictly personal preference, at least once you get away from the topic of system stability and potential death.  Don't mistake me as saying the 360 is crap... I think it's fine, and I know plenty of people will prefer that.  It's just for me, there's no comparison.  I like the PS3 setup a lot better, and I never liked the 360's interface from the get-go.  Add in the fact that I don't have to worry about the PS3 dying on me (or at least not as much), and it's clear where I'll be spending the bulk of my money where non-exclusives are concerned.

[gpw11]

If I had an HD TV and wanted to buy a console (like I said before, schools a large part of it, but apart from that dropping $400 for a console and dropping $1100 for a console and TV are two completely differnt things) I'd go PS3 right now.  I initially liked the 360 a lot and was thinking of buying one with a new plasma, but the RRoD came up and I decided to wait.  In that time I played more of both consoles and decided that the PS3 after the price drop just seems like more for the money to me.  Oh and MGS4 + Little Big Planet = me breaking the credit card out.

[scottws]

My beef with the 360 lately is it just seems there is so little worthwhile on it that isn't also on PC.  Oh, and the RROD thing of course.  Bastards.