Topic: MGS4

[idolminds]

Thats whats being said.

If true...fuck you, Kojima. I get pissed playing MGS games and not being able to actually *play* anything for half an hour. 90 minutes is too much, and multiple 90 minutes is just torture. Learn to tell an interactive story or just fucking make movies.

[scottws]

90 minutes is too much?  10 minutes is too much.  The final cutscene in MGS2 was like 30 minutes.  It's ridiculous.

[TheOtherBelmont]

90 minute cutscenes dont bother me, especially since you can pause them.  Yes, its slightly annoying not being able to play that long but when I play games like this I'm usually set to play for 4-6 hours (sometimes longer) in one sitting anyways so it personally doesn't bother me.  I can sort of understand for people who don't play longer sessions like me though.

[Ghandi]

I personally have always wanted a game that is just one big cutscene. Fuck actually playing the game, that takes effort.

[MysterD]

90 minute cut-scenes??!?!!?

Sheesh....There better be a fast forward button or a way to skip certain pieces of the cut-scenes or something.

Are there any cinematic interactive cut-scenes, too? 

[gpw11]

You know, if done right that might not really bother me.  I play a lot of games just for the plot and storytelling, and while it's usually not as developed as a good movie, television series, or novel, with certain games that's totally what keeps me playing.  I could get into something with 90 min. cut scenes assuming I can a.) pause them b.) save during them so I can stop and start watching again when I want and c.) have some sort of 'arcade' option so I can play actual gameplay if I feel like it for 10 min when my save is halfway through a huge cutscene.

I'm probably unique in this, but if it's worth watching then I don't think I'd mind too much.  Then again, it would totally fucking suck to be like "After I beat this boss I'm going to bed" finally beat that motherfucker and have it be like "SURPRISE! Feature length film time and you're not going anywhere!"

[idolminds]

So it seems some sites are debunking this saying there are no 90 minute scenes, though some say there are 45 minute ones.

The situation gpw describes is exactly why I don't like long cutscenes. That exact thing happened to me playing MGS2. The cutscenes should have a DVD-like setup if they are that long, with chapters you can skip to and stuff. So make an autosave when its triggered and players can watch it, skip it, or stop playing and watch it later, watch half and come back later, etc.

[Quemaqua]

I think you can't do that simply because a game is not a movie and you don't know how long someone may have been playing before a cutscene or how long they may want to play during a given session.  It *has* to be like a book in the sense that you have the option to pick it up and stop where you want.  It just has to work that way, and if it doesn't you're breaking it.  Even not being able to save anywhere can be a problem, though that's one we've all come to accept given the way it usually works with gameplay, but something like this is just excessive and stupid.  I would have absolutely no problem watching a 90-minute or 45-minute cutscene in a game personally, just because story means a lot to me.  If you integrate that with the surrounding gameplay in a way that makes sense, fine, I would have no issue watching it.  However, I think that's a sincerely stupid way to make a game and agree wholeheartedly that it just shouldn't be done.  While it wouldn't personally bother me, I think it's a horrible idea that does nothing for gaming but take it in exactly the wrong direction.

[Ghandi]

Well I wouldn't have a problem with it given that I was aware beforehand what was going on, and I could pause it and whatnot. But honestly, what game needs a 90 minute cutscene? That's a fucking movie

[sirean_syan]

The thing is, what movie is like ten hours long? Okay, a miniseries then. What miniseries keeps production values of this caliber? If it does, then it sure as hell isn't going to be on one disc and cost $60.

I'm probably weird. I saw the title, the first thing that came to my mind is, "Awesome!" You go to Metal Gear for the story, fun gameplay is the icing on the cake. Most games couldn't get away with this and most probably shouldn't. However, this is freaking Metal Gear. Exceptions are made for a reason.

[Ghandi]

My point was just that, at some point, you begin to move from the realm of games to movies. Once you lose interactivity and the media becomes more passive, it's hard to define it entirely as a game.

I'm not saying that this is a bad thing - it can be fine it it's own right. But at some point the line between "game" and "movie" becomes a little blurry. 

[ren]

I didn't bother reading this thread cuz I know what any logcal perosn would say to this. bullshit. 0- minute cutscens? fuck thta

[Ghandi]

That's true. I've always thought that 0 minute cutscenes were a fucking waste of time as well.

[Quemaqua]

See, Sy's first bit there is what I always say when I'm thinking of games with lots of story and cutscenes.  There's a distinct advantage to peppering in gameplay along a segmented stretch of story.  You get to feel this bond with the characters that you just can't emulate with film because there's actual extended length there, not to mention interactivity.  Even if you aren't getting actual story or character development with every minute of gameplay, you still get bits here and there, and the extra time just helps you bond with characters as those little bits drop.  Then the story grabs you even more when the big scenes come, and if it all goes right, you get something more personally moving because of that longer personal investment that's tempered further by your own invested *effort*.

Even with that said, though, I still think this isn't right.  It *could* be done if it was done brilliantly with some really clever intermingling of story and game, and while I respect Kojima well enough, I don't think he's got any ideas that innovative in him.

See, you can't have a 45 to 90 minute cutscene that's strictly dialogue or drama, even if you mix it up.  That's going to be boring as shit to at least 75% of your audience and you're going to lose them.  However, you can't throw a bunch of action in there either because then people are going to be pissed that there's awesome action happening that they aren't getting to take part in (which is still why we all buy games, even if some of us aren't those stupid people who skip every cutscene because of their hyper ADD).  So unless you guys can think of some magical way around that, I don't see this ever working.

On top of this, there's the problem that when we want to play games, we generally want to play.  Likewise, when we want to just watch something, we generally don't want to worry about anything else.  When you've got lots of time spent doing strictly one or the other, the switch is very jarring, and it will pose a significant problem to somebody that goes in wanting one thing and gets the other.

I don't mind long cutscenes, and even prefer them most of the time... but 45 minutes?  That's pushing it.

[MysterD]

I came to play a game, not watch a few 90 minute mini-series here. So, is this MGS4 more of a game? Or an added piece of machinima here?

When I buy a game, I want to play the thing and be involved in it. I don't mind sitting back for a few minutes, watching a good FMV or In-Game Cut-Scene -- especially when it's really good cut-scenes and dialogue, like say TLJ or NOLF.

I don't mind long dialogue pieces like in say RPG's, but most of those games like The Witcher, SW: KOTOR, Planescape, and many other RPG's give you plenty of options to react to the conversation -- and usually, what you say and decide matters. That really keeps the player engaged and into the story and game.

But, 45 min to 90 min cut-scenes? Geez Louise! That's extremely daring for a game. They better be absolutely fantastically great cut-scenes, or else gamers are going to be pissed. Also, there better be an option to fast-forward through it, skip certain chapters of one of those long-ass cut-scenes or something.

Another good option would be for the player to be given the option to actually be able to play a much more condensed version of these long-as-hell cut-scenes, which probably would take up a hell of a lot less time -- maybe around say 5-15 mins tops?? What do all of y'all think of that?

EDIT:
I think one of the smartest things done in gaming was what was done in Bioshock. You could basically play that game w/ really seeing very little cut-scenes in either games, since there's very few forced cut-scenes to watch. Most of the game is told through the audio-journals which you will pick up through the game, which you are given the option to even get completely into and listen to or just completely ignore them completely and just stick to battling. Take your pick. And when you play them, you'll be listening to them as you're likely somehow get involved in a shootout or some sort of action. Doom 3 and System Shock 2 actually did the same thing, as well -- but D3 had a few more cut-scenes than Bioshock did, to say the least.

EDIT #2:
Planescape had an interesting option in for. B/c the game was littered w/ so much prose (especially in comparison to many other games), there is an option in the game to make the game a lot less "Verbose", condensing the dialogue into less longer dialogue sequences.

[sirean_syan]

Looks like the article was updated and it turns out it was an exaggeration. Go fig.

[idolminds]

Admit it, you were saddened by the update.

[Xessive]

I don't mind long cutscenes as long as their reasonable. So long as they're done really well (cinematic style) and they don't interrupt the flow of the gameplay I think they're an immersive and possibly interactive way to convey a storyline.

A part of me craves rendered in-game cutscenes and I really loved that in the MGS series.

[Cobra951]

That's utterly ridiculous.  Put it on a boxed set of DVDs and include a coupon for a case of popcorn.  Then make a fucking game I actually get to play most of the time, to go along with the miniseries.

[scottws]

Now this probably isn't fair because the only MGS game I ever played was 2, but I find it interesting when people talk about how they love this series for the plot.  MGS2's plot was entirely nonsensical!

[Xessive]

Now this probably isn't fair because the only MGS game I ever played was 2, but I find it interesting when people talk about how they love this series for the plot.  MGS2's plot was entirely nonsensical!

Haha that's so true! I think it's just so convoluted that there's bound to be a story in there somewhere.

I understand a lot of it, and it basically comes off like a typical 80's action film with modern tech. That's how most games are anyway.

I like the story of the series, especially MGS1, mainly following what Solid Snake's been up to and what becomes of him.

From what I understand MGS2 was the "flop" of the series due to several issues the fans had with every facet of the game, from storyline and characters to technical issues.

[poomcgoo]

MGS2's plot was stupid for sure, but if you've played other games in the series (specifically MGS) it does make somewhat more sense.  I personally loved the cutscenes in MGS, not always just for the plot but for how they are composed.  The cinematography (if you can call it that) is outstanding for any game and the action scenes are always intense.  I love most all of the characters in the series out of sheer badassery and the dialogue can be both good and bad in ways that it works.  I enjoy the cheesiness and jokes that poke fun of the game itself, and conversely there are moments that are as serious as any movie and are presented with conviction. 

I wouldn't mind 90-minute cutscenes as long as they fit gpw's criteria.  I could easily enjoy some badass old-man Snake moments on a grand scale with MGS4's graphics, but at the same time it may only be because I'm a fan of the series.  MGS is definitely a franchise that caters to its fans, and you can expect a lot of similar storylines and cutscenes in MGS4 to what past games have had -- the only difference is it's bigger, better, and flashier.  When the ninja makes it's appearance once again in some ridiculously violent manner it will excite fans of the series more than newcomers because in the back of our heads we know it's coming and we want to see how many motherfuckers he slices up.

[gpw11]

Now this probably isn't fair because the only MGS game I ever played was 2, but I find it interesting when people talk about how they love this series for the plot.  MGS2's plot was entirely nonsensical!

I agree to a point.  The first time I played it I hit that point (no, no one deserves spoilers, the game is like 100 years old) where shit went all over the place for Raiden and was fully confused to the point where nothing made sense after that.  I played through it again, and it made a lot more sense all the way through, but there's still some pieces missing there.

It's a lot like The Matrix where I won't be able to say if the second one has a good plot until the full thing is done.  Hopefully it doesn't totally shit the bed like The Matrix...although that'd be almost impossible.

[sirean_syan]

Admit it, you were saddened by the update.

Well, yes I was. At least a little.

[sirean_syan]

Yay for double replies.

Gametrailers has been putting up a retrospective of the series up over the past couple weeks. It's nearly done and pretty worth watching. At the very least, it's a way to get back up to speed with the series if you're planning on getting MGS4. The fourth and final part should go up within a week or so.

The link

[sirean_syan]

Yes, I renamed the thread. Seems as good as making a new thread.

I'm all set for the release on Thursday now. Tonight I finished up a replay through all the modern Metal Gears (the last three) so the story is fresh in my mind. I'm surprised how well all the games have held up, especially MGS for the PSX. For all the clunkiness inherent in game's age, it aged a lot like some of the better 2D classics have in that it works very well within its own limits. Even the visuals still look all right because they were fairly stylized.

So yeah, bring on MGS4. I know Pyro's looking forward to it too. Anyone else?

[TheOtherBelmont]

I'll be picking up my copy at my local Gamestop at midnight and playing late into the night, can't wait.

[PyroMenace]

Yea its going to be crazy, I keep hearing critics who have finished the game say it all wraps up nicely which I cant imagine that myself, but we'll see. I have a pre-order for the PS3 bundled with MGS4 (not the overpriced gun metal gray one) at the gamecrazy here in town. I got lucky with that one since they were only getting 2 and I happened to ask if they were both taken, I assumed they were but I had them check anyway, and low and behold one of them was available. What sucks is that I cant pick it up till I get paid which wont be another week after its release.

I know K-Man has been anticipating it like crazy, he's still working on the other MGS games, he just moved so he won't get internet till friday  which gives him plenty of time to finish them up.

So the whole week while its out im going to have to deal with avoiding this thread, all the podcasts I normally listen to... hell Ill pretty much have to avoid opening my browser, its going to suck.

[sirean_syan]

I don't know if my game store is doing the midnight thing. When I preordered, the register monkey said it would be there when the store opened in the morning. I should give them a call. Maybe plans have changed.

[TheOtherBelmont]

I don't know if my game store is doing the midnight thing. When I preordered, the register monkey said it would be there when the store opened in the morning. I should give them a call. Maybe plans have changed.

There's also a list on Gamestop's website showing which stores are doing the midnight thing.

[sirean_syan]

I called them a couple hours ago and the place with my order isn't doing one. Oh well.

[PyroMenace]

That might be a good thing Sy considering that Im hearing they are going to be running the game showing off story and gameplay footage while people wait.

[TheOtherBelmont]

I just got done playing the first few hours of the game and damn is it good.  I won't go into any details but I am highly enjoying it so far.

That might be a good thing Sy considering that Im hearing they are going to be running the game showing off story and gameplay footage while people wait.

They didn't do that at the one I went to.

[sirean_syan]

I'll be off to get my copy soon.

I also got an email this morning telling me that Kojima is in the States for a launch tour and will be doing stuff at the Metreon in San Francisco on Saturday. Too bad I'm leaving for Southern California tomorrow for Aimee's sister's graduation.

[Quemaqua]

I don't think you or I have ever been to the Metreon for anything cool even though we live here and aren't strangers to the place.  How is it that we miss everything?

[sirean_syan]

I'd guess that a lot of it tends to happen around Christmas or as summer begins. While I haven't been in school the whole time I've been here, my life has been linked to it without a break and those periods are almost always ones of travel or finishing up the semester.

As for you? I dunno... monkeys?

[Quemaqua]

Interdimensional space monkeys.

[MysterD]

Yahtzee took on MGS4.

[Xessive]

Juts picked it up! It's pretty sweet. If you liked any of the predecessors you'll love MGS4!

[MysterD]

That's TWO PERFECT 10's this year alone from GameSpot now.
First GTA4, now MGS4.