Topic: Need advice on getting a new computer overwritten friends...

[KontrollerX]

Well this piece of crap Emachine is almost done for and I've never had a decent gaming PC before so at the urging of Cobra I am making this topic here. 

Guys since I am not knowledgeable enough like the rest of you to build my own computer...

When selecting a new one which specifications should I be looking for that you yourselves would consider great that you have yourselves or are planning on getting?

Like how much RAM should it have what kind of CPU is the best currently in your opinion, whats the best videocard and general inner things for gaming, should I just wait for the next big Windows operating system to come out before buying one since all the experts like you guys seem to hate Vista with a passion? etc.

I suppose I'm looking for a PC that is one that you would all consider quality and up to todays standards and that is powerful enough to last quite a good long while.

Well thanks.   

[gpw11]

Nice, I take it you want to play games on this eh?  How much are you willing to spend?

I generally buy all my parts at a newegg-type store here that puts everything together and tests it for $25-50 extra dollars.  The shitty thing is I don't believe this paticular place will actually build anything they're shipping to the USA because warranty issues across borders can be a huge bitch.

There has to be something like that somewhere in the States though.

[Ghandi]

I generally buy all my parts at a newegg-type store here that puts everything together and tests it for $25-50 extra dollars.  The shitty thing is I don't believe this paticular place will actually build anything they're shipping to the USA because warranty issues across borders can be a huge bitch.

There has to be something like that somewhere in the States though.

I bought a computer from ibuypower.com about....7 years ago and it's basically what you describe. Everything worked well. But I don't know how they are now or how expensive their stuff is at the moment.

[Quemaqua]

Just don't buy a laptop from them.  Trust me.

[scottws]

Sorry, I only really follow hardware when I'm in the market for a new PC, but I satiated that need about two years ago.  I'll do my best, but consider most of what I'm saying here is based on personal past experience most recently updated about 2 years ago and the rest is mostly from anecdotal sources.

• 2 GB RAM minimum.  I honesty would go with as much as you can afford... something like 4 GB, and go 64-bit.  It doesn't pay to wait to try to upgrade your RAM years later... it's hard to find the kind you use and it's not really any cheaper than you bought it and in fact can be more expensive.  RAM is dirt cheap right now.
• Don't worry about RAID.  Two hard drives isn't a bad idea though so you can store your data on one and have Windows plus your apps installed on the other.  That allows you to reformat without worrying too much about backing up your data.
• Get an Intel CPU.  They aren't too expensive, and are cooler and more energy efficient than their AMD counterparts.  I have a quad-core CPU, but a dual-core should be fine.  You don't necessarily need a top of the line CPU... ever.  Buy one a few steps down to find the greatest value in terms of cost vs. performance.
• Get a motherboard based on an Intel chipset.  They are the most reliable and are great performers as well.  nVidia used to have good boards, but their recent incarnations have been marred by several issues.  They aren't a bad choice per se, but I would say Intel is a better one.  IT is possible this has changed but last I looked it had not.
• Get a quality PSU (Antec and OCZ are great choices), and I would set your minimum at 500W.  Shoot for 550W - 600W.  Don't try to skimp here by purchasing a cheap PSU or you'll have nothing but problems.
• SLI or Crossfire support:  I wouldn't worry about it but it doesn't hurt to have a board that has two PCI-E 16 slots just in case.  The performance gains by doing SLI or Crossfire aren't 100% by adding a 2nd card.  You can get good performance out of a single card.  But it's possible a few years down the road you can really help performance by adding a 2nd card when it is much cheaper.  Of note though if your card starts being outstripped in terms of features of a game that a card doesn't support natively, a 2nd card won't be a big help.  Not an important feature IMO, but if you find a good deal on a motherboard that happens to have it, it's something to consider.
• Video card:  I think the 8800 GTX is still the top card, but the 8800 GT is a great value and a solid performer.  The 9600 GT is good too, but I think the 8800 GT is still considered the better card.  I'm not sure what it offers over the 8800 series to achieve a 9xxx designation.  I wouldn't consider ATi right now due to a history of driver and overheating issues, and also due to the shakeup from the purchase by AMD.
• Just a suggestion, but consider a case that uses 120mm fans exclusively.  They will be much quieter than cases that use 80mm fans, yet push a comparable amount of air.
• OS:  Vista sucks.  XP Pro is still fine.  The only time this is untrue is if you go 64-bit.  Vista x64 is far better than XP x64, especially in terms of driver support (key when considering a 64-bit OS).

[gpw11]

I think the 8800 GTX is still the top card, but the 8800 GT is a great value and a solid performer.  The 9600 GT is good too, but I think the 8800 GT is still considered the better card.  I'm not sure what it offers over the 8800 series to achieve a 9xxx designation.  I wouldn't consider ATi right now due to a history of driver and overheating issues, and also due to the shakeup from the purchase by AMD.

The 9600 GT technically uses a more advanced core (only available to the 9XXX series).  The thing is that the 8800GT uses a core no other card has (save maybe the 8800GS) which is kind of a stepping stone between that of the 8 series and the 9 series.  There's no major feature difference between the two.  That said, the only real advantages of the 9600 GT over the 8800GT are that it runs cooler, more silently, and has far less of a power draw.  Performance wise, the 8800GT is the way to go since it has more stream processors and all that other shit I totally don't understand. 

So, in laymans terms considering the price of each card, go for the 8800GT.

[KontrollerX]

Thanks again guys especially scottws and the beav.

Yeah beav I'm gonna try to max this sucker out and spend a ton of cashola to do so.

I found a computer shop in my town that will install anything they can in a new machine that I will buy so I'll try to buy a ready made PC with as much of the stuff scott recommended as possible and just have the other store install the recommendations he gave me that are not already in the PC so I should be able to finally have my dream machine or at least as close to it as I'll be able to get without some serious computer building lessons lol. 

I'm gonna go for the 64 bit Windows Vista premium loaded machine and work from there.

[gpw11]

Yeah, if you're going to go ready made like that I suggest doing something like Alienware or Dell XPS (especially if coin isn't an issue).  The main reason being that if you get something like a multimedia HP or non gaming PC, it might not have all the options to expand (such as PCI slots, Ram Slots, ect..), so the shop won't be able to help you out as much.  A lot of those mass produced machines cut a lot of corners.

[Ghandi]

Dell is the worst when it comes to cutting corners like that. Although I'm guessing the XPS line is geared towards gamers? Just make sure you wipe the harddrive clean if you get a dell, they install all kinds of bullshit on it before they sell it to you.

[KontrollerX]

Thanks for the heads up guys.

I checked em both out and yeah PC experts like you dudes regularly trash talk Dell so I don't have much faith in em.

I checked out Alienware's Aurora line just now so I guess I'll run with that. 

[Quemaqua]

I have a little advice: avoid Vista like the plague, and don't buy a ready made thing.  Always build your own if you can help it.  Always.  If you can't build it yourself, find a reliable shop and have them build it.  I'm sure there are some places that build an okay rig, and Alienware is probably one of them, but I'll tell you with certainty that I haven't yet found one I could afford that I trusted.  Everything I've ever purchased from a computer brand has always, always, always turned out to be crap, even the one time I bought from a more specialist gaming company.

[JacksRag(e)]

Vista isn't so bad.  I've gotten quite used to it and whatnot.  Everything's stable and I've had no issues with it for the last year or so either.  But to each their own, I suppose.
It'll be much more cheaper to build a really good rig as opposed to buying a pre-built.  But I would recommend the HP Blackbird, just because it's so damned sexy.

[gpw11]

Yeah, I'm not as down on Vista as everyone else seems to be, but I got it for "free" with my laptop.  I don't think I'd upgrade my gaming PC to it at this point.

As for pre-built, Alienware is a solid choice if you have the cash.  They still have a sterling reputation and actually build expandable PCs without cutting corners, which is about all you can ask for in this kind of thing.

[KontrollerX]

I heard Vista is a RAM hog beav.

Is that why most of you knowledgeable PC guys hate it so much or is it more like a ton of reasons?

[Quemaqua]

Ton of reasons for me, fewer for others.  I don't know how much of it has been sorted out with updates and stuff, but just from what I've heard, I wouldn't touch the thing if you paid me.  And the rumor mill is saying they may not even support it all that long and will abandon it sooner than usual in favor of whatever their next thing is going to be.  I don't know if that's true anymore, but it looked really likely for a while there.

In any case, I just don't like it.  It's big, clumsy, and likes to proclaim it's presence all the time instead of just sitting back and being unobtrusive the way an operating system should.  XP isn't even too good in that regard, but with Vista it just seems worse.

But I don't own it.  This is just from limited experience tooling around with it elsewhere, so you should probably listen to people with more first-hand experience.

[scottws]

I heard Vista is a RAM hog beav.

Is that why most of you knowledgeable PC guys hate it so much or is it more like a ton of reasons?

Vista is a RAM hog, but it's actually a good thing.  You know how on systems with low RAM, the PC will swap stuff out of physical RAM to virutal RAM on the hard disk?  Well, in a very simplified sense, Vista does the opposite.  It puts key parts of programs you use often into physical RAM, even if they aren't open, so that when you do open them it opens a lot faster.

So yes, I have 4GB of RAM and Vista is generally using 2-3 GB of it, but that's because of this feature, which is called SuperFetch.

I actually think it's one of the better things about Vista.

[gpw11]

Yeah, it is a bit of a RAM hog, but RAM is so cheap right now that if you're buying a new computer for games you shouldn't be putting anything less than 4 GB in it (dual channel).  That said, XP is only going to allow you to use 3 GB of that, so the other GB that you paid for is pretty much just sitting there useless (and because of the pricing, it's pretty much free when you consider the price of a 4 GB ram kit over that of a 2 GB kit and a 1 GB stick). In my mind that makes up for it.   Beyond that, what Scott said; it's a RAM hog, but in good, useful ways.

The things I don't like about Vista are more in line with what Que is talking about; it asks for permission for too many things (you can probably turn this off), and other little tiny annoying things like that.   Beyond that, a lot of the standard windows functions have been moved around and/or renamed making it a bitch when you try to do some things such as setting up a home or print network.  For the casual user though, I don't know how much of a difference it would make and it may even be more intuitive.

There are a few things I really like about it though; aero glass is nice on the eyes, the task bar preview feature is something I've found to be very usefull when I have like 6 different office windows open, and little stuff like that. 

In the end it's kind of a toss up, so I'd just do whatever Scott says....he's really really smart.

[KontrollerX]

Alright guys I finally bought one if my credit card worked. 

I think I got at least half of scott's major suggestions in it. 

I thought I was going to get an Alienware but I decided to go with Dell XPS instead since my cousin who is similarly intelligent to you guys was raving about it.

I went Intel like scott said.

The comp I'm getting is from the Dell XPS 630 gaming system line and is also a quad core like scott's and I took scott's other suggestion and went 64 bit and loaded it up with 4GB of RAM on Windows Vista Premium edition, got a 500GB harddrive, ATI Radeon HD3870 512MB GDDR4 video card so yeah unfortunately they didn't seem to be offering that 8800 GT card you guys told me to get so that sucked but once I build my money up again I suppose I can have one installed unless you guys think the current card it comes with is alright.

Anyway thanks again bros. 

[gpw11]

The HD3870 isn't quite as good as the 8800GT, but it's not far from it.  Hold on to that one and when things start getting a little rough in a year or two upgrade to something better, but skip the 8800 series all together...it won't be enough of a step up to justify the price.


And the dell XPS systems have been getting really good reviews.  I guess what happened is that Dell bought out Alienware, left it a separate company but got them to overhaul their gaming line leading to improved XPS systems.  Good call on that one.  Also, are you sure it's just one HD3870 instead of two?  A lot of times manufactures will ship these cards in a dual configuration in these types of PCs.

[K-man]

I had a lot of apprehension about running vista on my new comp, but since I had 4 gigs of RAM I figured it was worth a shot.  Boy was I right.  Vista is pretty awesome now.  I loved XP, but vista has exceeded all my expectations thus-far.  I highly recommend it over XP, provided your system can handle it efficiently.  It does things you expect an OS to do.  It automatically organizes my game shortcuts into a subfolder.  I can now redirect where my music and my pictures folders go.  so much more too.

Vista has really transcended some of the problems that plagued it initially, and is not really as deserving of most of the bad rep it got upon launch.

[scottws]

One of the biggest remaining problems is UAC.  I mean I get it.  It's trying to like Linux except a little easier in that you just confirm giving admin privileges by clicking OK instead of typing in your password every time.  But it is flaky.

It would be nice if it handled the file system a little better.  If you try to write to a directory that's locked behind admin, it doesn't ask you to confirm admin privileges, it just fails.  You have to add your user account as a valid user that can modify the folder, or you have to open the program that's trying to create the file as admin.  Also, your games all install by default to the Program Files (x86) folder, which is admin-only write access, of course.  Want to tweak a game's config file?  You have to open notepad as admin, then open the file.  You can't open the file itself normally and expect it to ask you to provide the ok for admin privileges because it won't, it will just fail with an access denied message when you try to save it.  You also can't right click the config file and hope to find "Run as Administrator" as one of the options, because that only shows up on executable files.

Basically UAC sucks.  Most people turn it off and I don't blame them for it.  But I have stuck with it now that I know its caveats and how to work around its issues.

[K-man]

Yeah, turning off UAC was like the second thing I did.

[K-man]

I should also mention that I'm running home premium

[KontrollerX]

A bit off topic in my own topic lol but I just had to share my excitement with you all that my replica Model M keyboard now known as the Customizer 104/105 at PCkeyboard.com has arrived today and I am loving the hell out of it.

The Model M as I'm sure you all probably know is one of the world's most beloved but ancient keyboard designs upgraded to work on modern computers by the company that bought the rights to IBM's keyboards called Unicomp.

I definitely recommend this keyboard to you guys (if ever you find yourselves in need of a new keyboard) for its extremely sturdy feel and design but yeah only if you don't mind a noisy keyboard heh heh. 

[Cobra951]

Oh yes.  The original super-clicky kb design.  My 1st real job involved early IBM PCs with those.

[Quemaqua]

Are those the ones that were really clicky or the ones that had a real spring to them and make kind of a "poing" sound?

[scottws]

I couldn't stand the klickety-klack sound, sorry.

[KontrollerX]

Yes, indeed Que these are the ones with the patented spring technology. 

To own one and use it to construct your poetry would no doubt give you just that little bit of extra satisfaction to know that not only was your work well thought out...

It was crunched out with love. 

Oh and hey scott no worries you could still get one in the future if you need a new keyboard as the space saver model I believe is the new silent variant but still of course has the satisfying feel as you type that not a lot of new keyboards offer up anymore.

[Quemaqua]

Haha, I have fond memories of those.  My sister had one, I used to type stuff up at her apartment all the time.  Indeed, they're very satisfying on a tactile level, but I think the sound might eventually drive my wife insane since she could probably hear it in the bedroom when I'm in here late at night.   

[scottws]

Oh and hey scott no worries you could still get one in the future if you need a new keyboard as the space saver model I believe is the new silent variant but still of course has the satisfying feel as you type that not a lot of new keyboards offer up anymore.

Holy shit!  It's $70!  The last two keyboards I bought were $10.00 and $4.00, respectively.

[gpw11]

haha, awesome.  A roommate of mine in third year university gave me the keyboard to his old computer when my keyboard crapped out and it was the original IBM model.  At first I thought it was a piece of garbage but it grew on me and that tactile sensation is awesome.  I gave it to my parents and it's currently kicking around there (although in pretty bad shape).  I think they even have another one in their garage.

[scottws]

You know, I'd consider the quiet space-saver model, but they only have it in that crappy 80's keyboard color scheme.  I see the buckling spring one comes in a black and metallic gray, which would match my monitor, speaker, and case color scheme perfect but the Quiet Touch one doesn't.

Edit:  Eh.  I just read that the Quiet Touch is basically standard rubber dome.  Don't see the point in paying $70 for something like that unless the build quality of the entire keyboard is just amazing, which I can't find evidence of at this time.

[KontrollerX]

Well guys I got the new comp about a week ago and have been loving the hell out of it.

It is fast, fast, fast and did I mention it is FAST??   

Unfortunately though I've discovered it is the 32 bit version of Windows Vista Premium so there is one more scott recommendation out the window. Argh if only the Dell site had mentioned the bit number I would've known for sure what I was getting.

Oh well though I guess maybe 32 bit works for my surfing the web and playing games casual type of computer user interest.

Anyhow if any of you guys scott, the beav, Que, Cobra...if any of you at all have a wireless modem and console videogame setup like 360 and Wii and want to give me a few pointers on what all to buy for that I'd be most appreciative sirs. Most appreciative indeed. 

P.S: Well I mean I know what things to buy but maybe you guys have an idea of what the best company product is for each thing.

[Quemaqua]

I have a Linksys WRT54G router and I hate it.  It's a popular model, though, and I think my hatred has more to do with networking in general than anything that's actually wrong with the router.  I've had nothing but headaches with my wireless network, though.  Such a pain in the ass.  Have my PS3, Wii, PSP and DS hooked up to it.  It's worth the trouble, in the end, but the thing just always wants to get b0rked somehow.

[scottws]

I have two WRT54GLs and love them, but I use the Tomato firmware.  Jennie's mom just got a WRT54G v8.2 and it seems to do a fine job.

Really, it's kind of tough to go wrong here unless you pick up some no-name brand router that no one has ever heard of.  Buffalo is really good but I think they aren't allowed to sell anything in the U.S. due to the company not filing something with the FCC properly or something of that nature.  Linksys, D-Link, Netgear, and Belkin are all fine choices.  Make sure whatever you get supports WPA2 out of the box or with a firmware upgrade (including 3rd-party firmwares).

Oh, and I wouldn't worry too much about Wireless-N.  At this point it is just not worth the premium price.  Sure, it's faster than Wireless-G, but only inside your own LAN.  You'd only notice the difference transferring some huge files from one PC to another inside your LAN.  Wireless-G is 54 Mbps.  Wireless-N is 300 Mbps.  Sounds huge right?  Yeah, it is, but your WAN connection is usually something around 1 Mbps so even Wireless-B (11 Mbps) is sufficient for Internet-related stuff.  Besides, Wireless-N isn't even really a true ratified standard yet.  Technically it is "draft-N" and there is no guarantee draft-N equipment will be compatible with the true Wireless-N specification and future products using that technology.  Just stick with Wireless-G.

I will say this though: the 360 wireless networking adapter is a huge ripoff ($100!).  Either get one used off eBay or do what I did, get a second wireless router - one that supports WDS or can accept a firmware that supports WDS - and use that to connect to the wireless network.  It's a whole lot cheaper.