Author Topic: MS hit by class action over RROD  (Read 2323 times)

Offline Pugnate

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Offline Xessive

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Re: MS hit by class action over RROD
« Reply #1 on: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 07:28:01 AM »
I can't believe this shit is still going on.

The RROD issue was so unnerving and it was one of the minor reasons I opted for the PS3.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: MS hit by class action over RROD
« Reply #2 on: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 07:45:20 AM »
FINALLY.  I've been waiting for this for ages.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Cobra951

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Re: MS hit by class action over RROD
« Reply #3 on: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:57:39 AM »
Yeah.  What I can't believe is that it took this long to happen.  Where do I join?  *Goes look*

Edit:  Oh, California.  A bit far for me.  Also, what they seek is unreasonable and only those who abandoned the console would want it.  It will never happen.  What should happen is that anyone who put up with the ordeal should get a set amount of money in damages for each time they had to deal with it, plus a lifetime guarantee on the console for all provable causes of the RRoD.

Offline gpw11

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Re: MS hit by class action over RROD
« Reply #4 on: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 08:44:19 PM »
Yeah.  What I can't believe is that it took this long to happen.  Where do I join?  *Goes look*

Edit:  Oh, California.  A bit far for me.  Also, what they seek is unreasonable and only those who abandoned the console would want it.  It will never happen.  What should happen is that anyone who put up with the ordeal should get a set amount of money in damages for each time they had to deal with it, plus a lifetime guarantee on the console for all provable causes of the RRoD.

That's much more reasonable.  I also kind of wonder what the chances are of actually winning anything are.  I don't know anything about it, but from my understanding consumer class action lawsuits are so successful in the auto industry because of pre-existing and industry-specific statutes in place protecting consumers.  Apart from that, when you buy any product I don't think you have a legal guarantee that it isn't going to break - buyer beware. It's not like Microsoft wasn't honoring warranties.

I'm not saying I don't think they SHOULDN'T get something, I feel they do.  I just don't know if the system has protections in place for this sort of thing, especially when the damage to the consumer is an inconvenience at best.

Also, the first comment on the Kotaku article linked is kind of funny, kind of sad.  "Isn't it illegal to punish whistle-blowers? "  I cried a little inside.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: MS hit by class action over RROD
« Reply #5 on: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 09:53:58 PM »
There's a difference between a manufacturing defect and a design defect, in law.  Manufacturing defects can happen sporadically to any products.  But a known design defect needs to be corrected before manufacture.  If it isn't, and it can be proven that the company knew or should have known about it, they can be held liable, and punitive damages may be possible.  A case such as this, where MS pushed knowingly defective hardware on unsuspecting consumers, is perfect for product liability.  Sure, we're not talking Ford Pinto here, so damages per individual are going to be low.  I'd love to see people get $10-20 per trip to UPS with a dead console.  I think that would be fair.

Offline sirean_syan

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Re: MS hit by class action over RROD
« Reply #6 on: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:44:19 PM »
As an outsider to the whole affair, I would really like to see that situation actually be fixed so that if I do decide to buy the system at some point I don't have to worry about it choking up before too long. Warranty might cover it, but that's not something I want to go through especially since I would mostly want to buy it for Live games like Castle Crashers, Rez, and Braid. Worrying about saves for normal games wouldn't be fun either.

Offline gpw11

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Re: MS hit by class action over RROD
« Reply #7 on: Friday, October 17, 2008, 12:11:31 AM »
There's a difference between a manufacturing defect and a design defect, in law.  Manufacturing defects can happen sporadically to any products.  But a known design defect needs to be corrected before manufacture.  If it isn't, and it can be proven that the company knew or should have known about it, they can be held liable, and punitive damages may be possible.  A case such as this, where MS pushed knowingly defective hardware on unsuspecting consumers, is perfect for product liability.  Sure, we're not talking Ford Pinto here, so damages per individual are going to be low.  I'd love to see people get $10-20 per trip to UPS with a dead console.  I think that would be fair.

Thanks, that does clear things up a fair amount.  I plan on looking into it a bit further in the near future, but I just did a quick check and am still kind of unsure how much that applies for two reasons.  The first being that the examples I saw (note, I only checked two, and they're internet sites) only really cited design vs. manufacturing defects in regards to personal injury. That kind of brings up my original question; apart from the heavily regulated automobile industry, do you really have any sort of legally binding guarantee on the quality of the products you buy? By honouring a warranty, is a company skirting legal responsibility?   Basically, is inconvenience grounds for a lawsuit like this when dealing with a consumer luxury item.  I'm fairly certain that in Canada it isn't (we don't even have lemon laws).   Personal injury,however, is a completely different level of broad liability.  Sure, there are other ways of punishing a company for doing things like this through lawsuits, but generally they require a much higher burden of proof which in this case isn't likely to exist.  Just knowingly selling a product with a short lifespan and not warning people isn't grounds for suit here because private citizens (and most companies) have no obligation of full 100% disclosure. Similarly, I can sell my neighbour a car that is completely fucked and he can't sue me unless I fucked up in other way somehow during the sale - if even then. Again, that's here, I don't know about there.

The second thing that leaves me uncertain while looking that up was that I don't know if this really is a case of it being a design defect.  Let me rephrase that - I think it is a design defect, but I don't know if the law would consider it a design defect.  To illustrate, one of the examples I just read stated something like "If a stool falls over because it has three legs in an unstable configuration it's a design defect.  If it falls over because of faulty bolts it's a manufacturing defect. They also define design defects as "intended defects with unforeseen consequences" whereas manufacturing are "unintentional".

Personally, I'd agree that it seems like you could very easily argue either way.  I tend to side with you and saying it's a design defect because there's obviously a reason you don't use cheap and lead free solder (still banned in medical equipment as far as I know) in certain applications and the whole high percentage of the production run being faulty thing.  But, again, I don't really know anything about this and I imagine a lawyer with a fast mouth and well versed in this aspect of law could probably sway my opinion pretty easily.


I don't know.  It's kind of a shame because shit like this does need to go down more often and companies need to be held accountable for for selling shoddy products.  I hope it goes somewhere and Cobra's idea of a fair settlement sounds like a good way of going about it. I find it kind of interesting and will watch to see where it's going.


Offline Pugnate

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Re: MS hit by class action over RROD
« Reply #8 on: Friday, October 17, 2008, 12:54:51 AM »
Apparently the problem is far smaller with the Falcons. So far my Falcon 360 is OK... though I've only had it since Sep.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: MS hit by class action over RROD
« Reply #9 on: Friday, October 17, 2008, 01:07:55 PM »
As an outsider to the whole affair, I would really like to see that situation actually be fixed so that if I do decide to buy the system at some point I don't have to worry about it choking up before too long. Warranty might cover it, but that's not something I want to go through especially since I would mostly want to buy it for Live games like Castle Crashers, Rez, and Braid. Worrying about saves for normal games wouldn't be fun either.

There are plenty of rumors about the continuing work on improving the hardware, making it cheaper to produce and hopefully more reliable.  MS won't say anything about it.  It stands to reason, though.  They want out of this nightmare as much as anyone, if not more.

As for the lawsuit, you have to remember that this is a civil case.  Burden of proof is preponderance of the evidence--the allegations are more likely than not.  This is a much lighter burden than a criminal trial's beyond a reasonable doubt.  What I think needs to be proved (under this light burden) is that MS knew or should have known that what they rushed to production was likely to break prematurely.  Whether injury results or not, lying to the consumer about the condition of what they're being sold is actionable.  I'd be shocked if that wasn't the case here.

Offline gpw11

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Re: MS hit by class action over RROD
« Reply #10 on: Friday, October 17, 2008, 04:32:55 PM »
Good point, I neglected to consider the lighter burden of proof at all.