Topic: Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO

[idolminds]

Bioware + LucasArts = SWTOR

[gpw11]

LAME

[MysterD]

*shrugs his shoulders*

[MysterD]

Four page preview from IGN

The sense of scale, however, will make Star Wars: The Old Republic different from every other BioWare game. In response to community pressure to scrap this game and just make Knights of the Old Republic 3, the team suggests that there's enough content in Star Wars: The Old Republic to call it "Knights of the Old Republic 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9." At first hearing, it's easy to suspect that is just marketing hype, particularly since it was delivered to us more than a couple of times by more than a couple of different people. Nevertheless, it seems to be entirely accurate to claim that, in the team's words, this is "the biggest and most ridiculous BioWare game ever made."

The problem is that the success of the stories in Knights of the Old Republic, Jade Empire and Mass Effect relied on scripted interactions, a dramatic pace and a sense that the player's actions had a lasting impact on the game world. BioWare admits, "common sense says you can't approach story this way in an MMO." As they see it, the problem with most MMOs, even those that have large story arcs for their characters, is that they try to apply a single story to a wide range of classes and attitudes. In designing content that works equally well for both saints and scoundrels, many MMOs are left with rather generic stories where the only real roleplaying is whatever the player projects onto the action.

The solution is to give each class its own story arc. While it means the writers have to create a lot more content, it also pays tribute to the fact that "not everybody's fantasy was to be Luke." There's plenty of opportunity to tell equally interesting stories for other possible character types like smugglers, bounty hunters, politicians and moisture farmers. Okay, well, maybe not so much with the moisture farmers, but those other possibilities seem like they'd have experiences that are every bit as exciting as you'd get as a Jedi.

In creating a specific story for each class, the writers can actually heighten the drama and highlight the key moments and moods that work for the type of character you're playing. So your class story will start right away with you being introduced to your class, not based solely on the mechanics of gameplay, but in terms of what motivates your particular class and how you should start thinking about your opportunities. That's not to suggest that each player of a given class will be forced into a scripted motivation; as we'll see in tomorrow's feature, BioWare will be giving players tremendous freedom to set their own sense of value and priority in the game. But the point is that your class story will provide a relevant framework for you to exercise your own choices throughout the entire life of your character. And then you can carry that sense of identity out into the rest of the game's content that's not directly tied to your class experience.

[Quemaqua]

Could be cool, but I'm so beyond done with the franchise it makes no difference to me in the least.

[MysterD]

Could be cool, but I'm so beyond done with the franchise it makes no difference to me in the least.

All I can still say -- WTF with rushing the last 1/3rd of KOTOR 2?

[MysterD]

Interview with IncGamers with James Ohlen, who is from Bioware Austin (which is the BW Division working on this MMO).

[MysterD]

Ray Myzuka of BioWare speaks on PC gaming being alive, the casual games market, and the MMO

BioWare: PC gaming is in fine health
Monday 19-Jan-2009 7:45 AM More PC players and more money being generated "than ever before"
6 Comments

The CEO of BioWare has told us that, contrary to numerous 'PC gaming is dying' claims, the sector's in fine health on a number of fronts.

"I think there are more people playing PC games and more dollars being spent on the PC space than ever before, but it's taking a different form," Ray Muzyka said in a recent interview.

According to Muzyka the PC gaming landscape is changing as audiences and technology evolve, and it's the job of developers to adapt to these new market conditions.

"MMOs are one way that's occurring... And there are more people playing flash-based games and casual games, even core games that are played in a casual way, so maybe [they have] a more core experience and you only play them for short bursts or for half an hour or something.

"It's not a bad thing if people want to play more types of games than they did 20 years ago, it's natural and normal as the audience and technology evolves... As creators we have to adapt to that and continue to make sure that we're satisfying the audience, but it doesn't mean we have to compromise.

"We can still make deep rich experiences but we have to make them easy to access, you have make the control system really easy to use, and you have to make people feel like they're playing an experience that they can play how they want to play it, whether that is long sessions or short sessions."

[PyroMenace]

That guy is in for a rude awakening if he thinks he can compete with WoW.

[MysterD]

That guy is in for a rude awakening if he thinks he can compete with WoW.

If there's one company (Bioware) and franchise (Star Wars) that can take some business from WoW, I think this might be the one...

[Quemaqua]

You are so wrong.

[MysterD]

You are so wrong.

My keyword is "IF."

We won't know if SWTOR will overtake WoW or not until it actually gets released and been around the block for a bit...

[Ghandi]

No, we know. It won't.

[Quemaqua]

And my point is that I disagree with your statement, "if" or not.  Whether or not the if is true is irrelevant, because I have absolutely no faith whatsoever that Bioware is the company to overtake Blizzard in *any* endeavor, let alone trying to overtake WoW, and I certainly don't think a Star Wars game would be the franchise to do it.  Not after what Lucas did to it.

[Pugnate]

MysterD will be more popular than Jesus on planet earth "IF" there is a zombie apocalypse and D is the last surviving human being.

keyword is "IF."

[MysterD]

MysterD will be more popular than Jesus on planet earth "IF" there is a zombie apocalypse and D is the last surviving human being.

keyword is "IF."

When did I ever care if people worshiped me and if I was popular?

And my point is that I disagree with your statement, "if" or not.  Whether or not the if is true is irrelevant, because I have absolutely no faith whatsoever that Bioware is the company to overtake Blizzard in *any* endeavor, let alone trying to overtake WoW, and I certainly don't think a Star Wars game would be the franchise to do it.  Not after what Lucas did to it.

About your last line, yeah, that's actually a pretty good point -- about what Lucas did to Star Wars -- two prequel movies (Phantom Menace and Clone Wars); and rushing and removing lots of content from KOTOR 2.

If you want to add more fuel to the fire, you could mention Bioware becoming part of Bioware and all the DRM business with Mass Effect PC (Retail Edition ONLY).

Though, I don't know, man...Star Wars brand has been around forever. People seem to go crazy over SW stuff, no matter how good or bad it is.

About reputation and all, has Blizzard ever even made a horrible game?

[W7RE]

I think of WoW as not part of the MMO market, but the WoW market.

Plus, an MMO might do really good, and never come close tot he financial success or subscribtion numbers of WoW, and I'd still play it instead because it's not WoW. Sure, I played the game for a long ass time, but every time I go back to it or try to get into it again, I eventually run into the wall of "You must arena or raid for gear. Otherwise fuck you." Now, I don't like people much, so finding 1-4 people to play arena games with regularly is not my cup of tea. Waitingf or 24 other people to "get it right" in a damn raid instance is even less fun. So I quit, and really can't see myself going back again. If I did I'd end up at that wall again and quit.

So, a Star Wars MMO could be fun if done well. I love to harass people and piss them off though, so if there's no pvp or stealth class, I may not be interested.

[PyroMenace]

Well yea, with any game your going to hit that wall inevitably, its just the nature of game design. Im sure the amount of time you spent on WoW has given Blizzard more than enough justice that they got the MMO replay longevity down to a science, you cant really fault them if you eventually get sick of the game.

Also any new MMO that does hit the market goes through the usual cycle, the WoW players flock to it searching for something new for a short while, then go back knowing they those MMOs cant touch the amount of content WoW has. I honestly dont see anything stopping that game.

[MysterD]

Bioware's aiming to get this the first MMO to be fully voice-acted.
Given how big Bioware is trying to make this game in size and scope, this sounds kind of crazy to me...

BioWare's Ray Muzyka has revealed Star Wars The Old Republic will be "the first ever fully-voiced massively multiplayer online game".

Speaking at EA's E3 press conference, Muzyka said every class and character in SWTOR "will have his, her or its own unique voice".

"We think this changes everything for MMOs," he added. "We believe this could be one of the largest voiceover projects in the history of games - and maybe the rest of entertainment."

Muzyka went on to say that every class in SWTOR will have its own unique story. "So if you play as a bounty hunter in the Empire, then as a trooper in the Republic class, the experience will be different," he explained.

[Ghandi]

*yawn*

[MysterD]

Star Wars: TOR - E3 2009 Trailer.

[MysterD]

Vid showing off some of the undertaking of Bioware trying to get SWTOR fully voice-acted.

[MysterD]

Hmmm....
Will SWTOR have micro-transactions...?
Or just a monthly fee?
Or both?

[PyroMenace]

So I think I'm starting to come around more on this game with the stuff I read and hear about, simply because it sounds less and less like WoW and more of something like Guild Wars, actually I think this game is trying to strike a balance of somewhere between the two. There will be some obvious parallels with WoW I think, like the interface, and quest giving, but this seems to feel less like a MMO, and more like a single player experienced RPG Bioware game. The quests are much more in depth, hopefully fetch quests will be far and few between, much more story driven and best of all, more soloable. You can get companion characters, like the ones that would follow you around in Guild Wars, and there will be more instancing. I think the player to player interaction will be less pushed upon and feel a little more like a closed experience, like you would want to play with friends, rather than random people. I'm actually hoping for a fully rounded story for the characters, like a sense of accomplishment and closure that never seems to come out of MMO games, but that really goes against there nature. An MMO with no end game content practically spells failure even though its something Im wanting out of it. It would be nice to play through a selected character classes story, with some friends to boot, then when I'm finished, I can take a break from the game for a little while, then come back and play though another character class getting a new story and play through all over again. Something like that would totally work for me, no never ending hunting for end game loot, just playing for the story and world of the game. With WoW, specifically Wotlk, I really enjoyed leveling through northrend and seeing quests and story unfold about Arthas and the new continent and how all the factions fit, but once you get to 80, theres no end to it. The Arthas raid hasnt even been released yet, nor am I going to be able to see it since it requires that relentless raid weekly schedule mentality. So yea, from what I am seeing in the Old Republic, I hope that what its trying to do will succeed. It's something I think I will be very interested in playing.

Oh yea, here's a little more information about some new classes, and an interview with Blaine Christine by Ryan Davis.

Also here's a large 20 minute play through, which is what really started to peak my interest.

[W7RE]

I'm really interested in this game, but I'm seeing pretty much nothing on PvP. I hope it at least has some PvP. I'd really like an MMO (worth playing) that has a PvP focus, but I'll settle for a good PvE MMO with some decent PvP on the side. Of course I guess with a PvE focus and PvP on the side, there's always the hope that griefing will be possible.

[scottws]

I'm sure this game will be as awesome as Star Wars Galaxies.   Oh wait...

[PyroMenace]

Yes... that's exactly what I was trying to say...

[Pugnate]

Different developers, different focus.

[iPPi]

I fear the strong focus of the game's voice work and story in an MMO might be to its detriment.  From what I've seen it seems like a single player game more than an MMO.  You have to understand that most people who play MMOs quest to level up, and once at cap, they PvP and raid PvE content.  The entire concept of story is usually a side thought... they're more interested in the loot and rewards and the endgame content.  I suppose RP players would love something like this, but they are a minority.

It definitely does try and break some of the standards and expectations of an MMO though... for example, that quick look had a 'flashpoint' (looks like basically a story driven instance), but doesn't need the traditional tank/healer/dps combos.  Still, the story driven focus and dialogue (it's Bioware, so lots and lots of dialogue) slows down the gameplay too much for an MMO.  Based on the direction its heading, it doesn't look like it will have raid content unless they cut out the story and voicework out of raid instances. 

It'll be interesting to see how the game is received by the community, and if it can shake the foundation of WoW.

[Pugnate]

So I had a look at the gameplay videos a few days ago, and this looks like ASS. I shudder to think how dated it will feel by the time it is out.

A lot of the editors who previewed the game at E3 said it was DOA.

What a shame.

[Xessive]

That's generally how I feel about most MMOs. Very few have impressive visuals. It all comes down to the monotonous gameplay.

[Pugnate]

It isn't just the looks. They say the gameplay is extremely underwhelming.

BTW, Guild Wars 2 looks really good, both visually and in terms of the gameplay.

[W7RE]

What I've been hearing is that the game is really really similar to WoW, in both mechanics and structure. I guess the idea is to copy from the best to insure success. The problem is, everyone I know that was ever a hardcore WoW player is sick to death of the structure and mechanics. They all want something new. Rift wasn't enough, because it was WoW with a different paintjob. If SWTOR is that again, why would they play it for more than a month or two? Linear questing, instanced dungeons, instanced PvP that's both repetitive and predictable, and end game instanced raiding. Why play a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game if everything is instanced and on a small scale? Give me a massive world and stop cutting me of from it.

Oh, and I'm not sure cinematics are what MMO players want. In early WoW, there was an addon to skip the slow loading quest text because people just wanted to glance at the objectives and get on with it. I can see people getting frustrated with having to sit through cinematics now. What I'd like to see is to have all quest text voiced, but short and to the point. Give me the ease of not having to stop and read something, but make it short enough that I don't have to sit and listen for a minute or two in order to get the idea. Still, it's a very minor aspect and I don't see it making much difference.

[PyroMenace]

Looks like its coming this year in December.

I was excited for this, but all the negative feedback from it is underwhelming. I still want to try it, but I don't think its going to do so well. EA spent so much money on this game too.

[Quemaqua]

People keep trying to fight fire with fire when it comes to WoW. I think they need to realize that the next new thing is where the crown will be passed, not the next its-already-been-done-to-death.

[shock]

It's really time to innovate the MMO genre.  Tired of the same old tank, healer, dps to take down a big dragon mash up.

Until that happens, I don't think I'll bother playing another one.  Once you've played WoW, you've played them all.

[Xessive]

That's the hope that's carried in the hype of Guild Wars 2: hopefully things will change.

This is why I prefer traditional action games since they rely a lot more on player skill than arbitrary stats and dice rolls.

I hate being told that it's impossible to for me to defeat a guy who's 10 ranks above me only because he's 10 ranks above; I prefer being told that it's unlikely because he's probably a skilled player but if I can land a headshot he'll go down like a sack of potatoes. I prefer the model that equipment can give you an edge but it doesn't make you invincible, danger is always lurking and may come from the least expected places, even a new player can be skilled with basic equipment or could get a lucky shot.

That's where I feel MMO's need to change fundamentally. It needs to be about the gameplay experience not the grinding or rank.

[Quemaqua]

GW was pretty well established and had a big fan base (still does), so hopefully 2 continues the legacy rather than trying to learn too many lessons that WoW taught.

[W7RE]

I'm so sick of the "holy trinity" of tank, healer, dps. It's ridiculous that all these huge and extremely powerful bosses can be so easily focused on the one guy they can't kill, and NEVER turn to anyone else (assuming things go right). This also makes the fights extremely simple. You stand there and tank, stand there and spam heals, stand there and dps. This is why we have dozens of extra skills on each class, to make a more complicated rotation, because the fight would be boring otherwise. This is also why boss fights in games like WoW are so complicated. They're struggling to add challenge in a world where the boss stands still and beats on the tank. so you get tons of unique abilities on each boss that require you to get close to him, get far away from him, push a button, or do a tapdance to avoid dying. Instead of watching what the boss does and adapting, you have to read about his abilities and study the fight ahead of time.

The worst part is that most people don't want to play a tank or healer, but this system requires that some do so. Why the hell would you design a system that forces you to have character types that no one wants to play? And then those character types are REQUIRED for group content!


I'm just not sure how we got from "fun videogame" to "holy mmo trinity", because I'm convinced the two can't coexist.

[W7RE]

Release for this is coming up quickly. Today is Dec 8, and the game comes out Dec 20. Early start for preorders starts on around the 15th.

I've been in the last 3 beta weekends, so I've had a chance to try it out up to level 27. It's not really anything new, but it's got enough differences from WoW that it at least feels sort of fresh. I've never really been more than a passing fan of Star Wars, but there's something fun about playing as a jedi. So I'm getting the game (have it preordered), and have already joined a guild and decided on a class/race combo.

NDA is lifted, so if anyone wants to know anything I'd gladly help out. I could just go on for a while about the good/bad, but it would probably end up pretty long winded.