Topic: Second Take: Console Piracy On The Rise ?

[Pugnate]

http://www.tomshardware.com/console-piracy,video-310.html

[Xessive]

Was that really a surprise? I didn't wanna say it but "Suck it, CliffyB. It happens on consoles too."

[MysterD]

No surprise that it was going to happen -- especially to big titles on the console.
I mean, it happened with Halo 3 for the 360.

But, the funny part is some of these games, their PC versions ain't been cracked; such as FO3 PC.
Has Far Cry 2 PC has been pirated yet?

Epic, Ubisoft -- both complained about PC piracy, yet their upcoming console games got pirated. What a slap in the face to them. I wonder if PC pirates have banded together and decided, "Let's get at these companies back for ditching PC gaming and slap them by pirating their console version" or "Let's show them games can be pirated on the console, too." Or if say X360 pirates just banded together and said, "If PC games can be pirated, let's do it on the console." Hell, who knows.

Here's a thought -- these companies got to stop announcing a game went GOLD too soon b/c there's all this time in-between, where often they start putting out trailers for the Net and/or TV for the game; especially the console and multi-platform (console and PC) ones. In this time, usually of 3-4 weeks, this is when the cracked version/pirated version gets out.

Maybe they should announce the game went GOLD say a few days before the game's coming out? B/c by the time it's announced, it'll be on the shelves, maybe people will just go to the store and go pick it up?

About WoW -- ugh, that's been cracked. Didn't Blizz sue a company for putting up their very own servers to play WoW?

[scottws]

I absolutely love that Gears of War 2 for the 360 is being pirated like crazy.  I just looked and I see over 2,000 seeders and over 3.000 leechers on one torrent site.  Take that CliffyB you backstabbing piece of shit!

[MysterD]

I absolutely love that Gears of War 2 for the 360 is being pirated like crazy.  I just looked and I see over 2,000 seeders and over 3.000 leechers on one torrent site.  Take that CliffyB you backstabbing piece of shit!

Maybe Cliffy B is thinking he should've planned a PC port out for GoW2 right about now... 

[Pugnate]

hahaha I love Scott's rage.

Watch most of those people just be pissed off PC gamers.

[MysterD]

hahaha I love Scott's rage.

Watch most of those people just be pissed off PC gamers.

That wouldn't be a surprise, actually.

[Cobra951]

It concerns me that a big deal is being made of this.  Sure there's some console piracy.  It's nothing new.  It's not a secret.  But there seems to be a concerted effort to prop up the PC market by trashing the console one, which these guys seem to be swallowing at least part of the way.  Console piracy is harder because it requires modification of a machine not designed for user modification, in the hands of an average user who would have little or no knowledge about how to do it, and probably no desire.  The proportion of console piracy to sales in so low that it doesn't merit upsetting the applecart.  It would be a counterproductive shame if console disc games suddenly become the pain in the ass to use that so many retail PC games now suffer.  And it wouldn't change any sales numbers for the better--not in the console market, not in the PC market.

[scottws]

I've never looked into console piracy, but that video story linked here basically says it is extremely easy to enable your console to run pirated content and doesn't require it to be turned into a "Frankenstein monster" (their term).

[MysterD]

It concerns me that a big deal is being made of this.  Sure there's some console piracy.  It's nothing new.

But, it's happening even more so than ever before and more PC-like than ever before, wouldn't you say?

GoW2, Fable 2, FO3 -- all been pirated way before its release.

It's not a secret.  But there seems to be a concerted effort to prop up the PC market by trashing the console one, which these guys seem to be swallowing at least part of the way.  Console piracy is harder because it requires modification of a machine not designed for user modification, in the hands of an average user who would have little or no knowledge about how to do it, and probably no desire.

Do you think if say more console games get the leaks (like they do in the PC world), do you think more X360 gamers would just start thinking about learning about how to mod out an X360?

The proportion of console piracy to sales in so low that it doesn't merit upsetting the applecart.

It's just starting to tip the iceberg it looks like, Cobra. It hasn't really got going yet to the PC's level of piracy, I don't think; not close. Looks like it's just starting to happen and get some attention.

But, what if console game piracy suddenly become ultra-rampant like it is on the PC, Cobra?

Now, it's true that even crummy console games usually do outsell great PC games (even those that even sell well for a PC game), in many instances and regards. So, yeah -- piracy might not hurt console games as much currently, but it will hurt PC games b/c they doesn't really have normally the basis of sales console games have.

It would be a counterproductive shame if console disc games suddenly become the pain in the ass to use that so many retail PC games now suffer. And it wouldn't change any sales numbers for the better--not in the console market, not in the PC market.

Agreed.
Vicious protection on console games might be worse than anything console piracy could happen to cause.
Might turn some console gamers into pirates -- like it has done to many on the PC.

[Cobra951]

It's just starting to tip the iceberg it looks like, Cobra. It hasn't really got going yet to the PC's level of piracy, I don't think; not close. Looks like it's just starting to happen and get some attention.

But, what if console game piracy suddenly become ultra-rampant like it is on the PC, Cobra?

No.  It's not an iceberg tip.  Console piracy is not a massive block submerged below perception.  It has been out in the open for years.  Take the PSP for example.  UMDs get dumped by those who know how, and distributed via the web to anyone who wants them.  I personally witnessed a half-dozen Playstations getting chipped at a lab in my place of employment about 12 years ago.  It's not a secret.  It's not a new threat to the market.  That's a load of potentially destructive bullshit.  All we need now is for the money people to knee-jerk consoles into a PC-like restrictive state.  That's my fear.  That's why my reaction to this is stronger than it may seem to merit.

For it to become "ultra-rampant", the average console owner would have to change significantly.

[Pugnate]

I absolutely love that Gears of War 2 for the 360 is being pirated like crazy.  I just looked and I see over 2,000 seeders and over 3.000 leechers on one torrent site.  Take that CliffyB you backstabbing piece of shit!

While it may be easy, most people don't want to risk it. You void your warranty etc. Secondly, once you pirate your 360, you can't go online... ever.

Also, there is no way to pirate PS3 games.

The video link also talked about how piracy is a lot more dangerous for PC games. Like the guy said, 200,000 lost sales (sales not actual downloads) on the PC might mean a 50% loss, but aren't nearly as big a problem on the 360, where most generic shooters go multiplatinum.

It's just starting to tip the iceberg it looks like, Cobra. It hasn't really got going yet to the PC's level of piracy, I don't think; not close. Looks like it's just starting to happen and get some attention.

Nah... I wouldn't go that far.

  It has been out in the open for years

Handhelds and last gen consoles are pretty much pirated rampantly. Of the current gen, The Wii is pirated easily, while the PS3 has no modchip for it yet. Modding the 360 is really risky, because it results in the warranty becoming void -- and that's a huge risk to take on that console.

Plus if you go online with a modded 360, MS will lock your system.

All we need now is for the money people to knee-jerk consoles into a PC-like restrictive state.  That's my fear.  That's why my reaction to this is stronger than it may seem to merit.

But there isn't much they can do for consoles, right?

But there seems to be a concerted effort to prop up the PC market by trashing the console one, which these guys seem to be swallowing at least part of the way.

Yea, they are doing that. Being the guys from Tom's Hardware, I am not entirely surprised.

[MysterD]

No.  It's not an iceberg tip.  Console piracy is not a massive block submerged below perception.  It has been out in the open for years.

Even in the mass media?

Take the PSP for example.  UMDs get dumped by those who know how, and distributed via the web to anyone who wants them.  I personally witnessed a half-dozen Playstations getting chipped at a lab in my place of employment about 12 years ago.  It's not a secret.  It's not a new threat to the market.  That's a load of potentially destructive bullshit.  All we need now is for the money people to knee-jerk consoles into a PC-like restrictive state.  That's my fear.  That's why my reaction to this is stronger than it may seem to merit.

Last thing console gamers need is more restrictions a la PC.

I'm hoping something tips the iceberg backwards for the PC, as I find myself holding off on games I was looking forward to b/c of their PC version's DRM -- Spore, FC2, Dead Space, etc etc. Personally, I'm hoping Stardock comes up with DRM that PC gamers and even publishers will adopt b/c it's fair to both sides, myself.

I'd rather have no DRM myself, but yeah -- there's gotta be some sort of compromise here. I never had many bitch, moans, or complains about the old school disc-check.

For it to become "ultra-rampant", the average console owner would have to change significantly.

I know, I'm proposing lots of "what-if" scenarios here, since it ain't happened yet and all...

Do you think it's possible maybe we'll see more PC gamers fed up with Securom and other vicious DRM hop over to the X-360? Maybe those that hop over even start pirating games over there instead?
And maybe if that starts, more casual 360'ers will see this piracy on the consoles games and turn into hardcore types?

[idolminds]

I've never looked into console piracy, but that video story linked here basically says it is extremely easy to enable your console to run pirated content and doesn't require it to be turned into a "Frankenstein monster" (their term).

The Wii was a software modification using an exploit inside Twilight Princess. Patch the ISO and and you basically install a new channel onto the Wii to run stuff, including "backups". The exploit might have been patched recently, but if the channel was already installed it didn't remove it. I'm sure we'll see something else soon for new installs.

The 360 you take the disc drive out, attach it to your PC, flash it with special software, reinstall and it'll play burned games. Doesn't seem all that difficult. The thing keeping people from doing it would be the failure rate of the console itself. Don't want to void the warranty on your ticking timebomb.

DS just needs a special card thats not really that expensive, and PSP needs custom firmware installed which can be tricky but if you know someone thats done it it's easy for them to do it for you.

Ps3 so far can't play backups as far as I know.

*EDIT* And damnit, don't post when I'm typing and make everything I type redundant!

Fine then.

About WoW -- ugh, that's been cracked. Didn't Blizz sue a company for putting up their very own servers to play WoW?

I wouldn't consider that the same as being cracked. WoW has no copy protection itself and you can download the client for free (you still have to buy the game to get a key to make your account, though). The private servers are nowhere near the level of the Blizzard official servers. Buggy or missing quests, low low player numbers (making raids impossible, or the auction house useless), missing monsters in the world, etc. All sorts of issues. You can play on them for free, but its nothing like playing the real deal.

[Cobra951]

The 360 you take the disc drive out, attach it to your PC, flash it with special software, reinstall and it'll play burned games. Doesn't seem all that difficult. The thing keeping people from doing it would be the failure rate of the console itself. Don't want to void the warranty on your ticking timebomb.

You and I can do that.  The average owner wouldn't know where to start, even if he were blessed with this information (which he likely isn't).  Also, unless there's something new, this only works on some of the 360 DVD drives, not all.  And after you get past that hurdle, as Pug said, you can't go online--ever.  And then what you said comes to bear.  Bad deal all around.

I agree that there isn't much they can do in the current gen about a perceived piracy threat.  But it may very well alter plans for future consoles, with either the elimination of disc delivery, or an online requirement.  We don't need to encourage more dilution of game ownership by end users.

[idolminds]

Ive read you can take modded 360s online and not get banned, but I haven't looked into the specifics of it. You're right that the average owner wouldn't know where to even start with this stuff, but it seems like consoles are getting to be more and more technical to use with the online play and setting up the wifi and messing with routers or whatever. With PCs becoming more and more useful, and kids now growing up with them there will come a time where more console owners have the tech knowhow for this stuff.

Plus, like PC piracy, it only takes one. Imagine a class of 8th graders and one guy mods his 360 and brags about it. Others want theirs modded, so he will do it for them. He could even sell burned games for $5 each for the ones that don't even want to deal with finding isos. If you know the right people this stuff gets easy enough for anyone to do.

But I agree, it'll suck if this changes future console design. Online requirements would be horrible.

Or...would it? slightly OT rant here, but if consoles started requiring an online check it might show the trouble with such systems to your average Joe. When they cant play their game because they dont have internet, or the servers shut down and now none of their stuff works. It might show how bad this kind of thing is, console and PC. It would signal the end of the crap we put up with now. Just that transition period would be pretty shitty to go through. I was hoping that game companies would look over at the music industry since they have been going through this exact same thing for years and they are moving toward no DRM sales. They found it doesn't work. Would be nice if gaming could avoid the ugliness and just skip to the conclusion. </rant>

[Cobra951]

That would be like spreading a disease that mostly affects a single demographic, so that the general public can join in the outcry about how bad it is.  Deliberately screwing something up to raise awareness of problems elsewhere is a perverse thing to do.

My main point is that this is not any bigger deal now than it was the day before yesterday.  It's a tempest in a teacup.  I know what it takes to pirate games, and the possibility of piracy will never be eliminated.  The question is how much does it erode a particular market.  Console markets have never been healthier.

[Pugnate]

Well I have some cousins in the UK, who got their 360 modded from Pakistan, went online, and three weeks in, were left with a very expensive paperweight.

As for an online verification, I don't see it happening.

The question is how much does it erode a particular market.  Console markets have never been healthier.

Right. To be fair, basically all this fuss is coming from the PC friendly quarters. People like myself are admittedly silently pleased, while others whose livelihood (like's Tom's HW) depends on the PC enthusiast crowd, revel in it.

To be fair, a lot of this cheering is coming from the legit PC gaming crowd frustrated at all the publicity surrounding pirated PC titles.

[idolminds]

That would be like spreading a disease that mostly affects a single demographic, so that the general public can join in the outcry about how bad it is.  Deliberately screwing something up to raise awareness of problems elsewhere is a perverse thing to do.

Of course it is, but it seems like that would be the only way to get people to really give a shit. "So? It doesn't affect me." is what I hear from pretty much everyone regarding DRM. It has to affect them for them to care.

Anyway, that was OT. You're right, I don't think console piracy is anywhere near as bad as PC piracy levels. However, looking at the PSP you can really see it there. Very few new game releases and torrents for everything.

[Cobra951]

I'm going to assume you're not actually endorsing the proverbial bombing of the console status quo as a tool to get your way on PCs.  It doesn't fit your good nature.  It makes more sense that you're just mentioning it in passing.

I would think that most people do give a shit.  Most console owners also own PCs, or at least have one accessible in a room nearby.  Nobody likes overly intrusive DRM and other protections.

[idolminds]

Heh, yeah. I don't actually want it to happen. It as just an amusing thought.

No one likes overly intrusive DRM, but the problem is people have different levels of what they consider intrusive. For a lot of people it seems like the stuff on Spore, Far Cry 2, Dead Space, etc aren't overly intrusive. They are to me, but that doesn't seem to matter.

[Pugnate]

Well you could be right, but we don't have evidence of that yet. We have Spore, but then that was bought by many people who probably don't even understand DRM on PCs.

Let's see how well FC2 and Dead Space do.

[Cobra951]

I was reading a forum earlier where someone became infuriated with FC2.  First, the key wouldn't work for the first hour.  (Don't know why.)  Then Securerom wanted him to remove emulation software (I assume CD/DVD).  Even after he uninstalled it, the game still refused to run.  Tech support gave him the runaround.  So he ended up doing what any of us would have done before removing Daemon tools and the like.  He got a crack, and now the game works fine.

[Pugnate]

So there is a working crack already?

Beautiful.

Like I said before, the biggest problem is how easy the pirates have it.

I know airport security is different, but it is frustrating and tedious, yet us regular travelers put up with it. Now what if we saw reports that terrorists were beating it daily without issue? It would suddenly be less easy to put up with...

Also, while I am sure the case you reported is a guy with a legit complaint, I wouldn't be surprised if it is some normal guy running a bit of a propaganda campaign. I've seen it happen before on numerous occasions, where illegitimate users would make such posts in order to push their own anti-DRM agenda.

What happened on the Titan Quest forums was well documented, where some pirate eventually admitted that the problem he had been having was with a torrented copy (Which had been crashing because of the crack). Later when used an authentic CD, he failed to remove the crack. Once he did, the problem went away.

Mass Effect actually took a while to crack, and the Bioware forums made for entertaining reads. Lots of people came in on day 1, claiming they had legit copies and were being caused problems by the DRM. When the moderators asked them to register -- (on Bioware if you register a game, it is reflected under your user name, with a list of all your Bioware registered games) -- as you may have guessed, they disappeared FAST.

So yea, you never know.

In the end, guys like myself are just taking the third route. We aren't pirating the games, but we aren't buying them either. For the first time in my life, I am buying more console games than PC. So far I've skipped Spore and have resold my sealed copy of Mass Effect purely because of the DRM.

I kid you not, despite being a massive PC gamer who purchases three games a month, I have not played two games I preordered: Spore and Mass Effect. As of yet I have NOT played Crysis: Warhead and I have NOT ummm..."purchased" Far Cry 2 (tried it on my friend's comp). I will probably get over my DRM nausea at some point, especially with GPW claiming the Spore DRM to be seamless, but I can imagine a lot of us not being so willing.

The game that will end up next on my PC is Fallout 3.

[MysterD]

I was reading a forum earlier where someone became infuriated with FC2.  First, the key wouldn't work for the first hour.  (Don't know why.)

I've had trouble before with the game unlocking over servers -- even if there's likely nobody hitting the Net. I had this happen w/ AITD 2008 PC, which is not selling very well.

Maybe he ran into something of that kind of issue?

Then Securerom wanted him to remove emulation software (I assume CD/DVD).  Even after he uninstalled it, the game still refused to run.

That has happened plenty times before with Securom, before they brought the Net style protection into things.

Question -- does FC2 require the disc in the drive?

I know EA's Securom protected games don't require the disc -- so I wonder if people still get that boot error if they have Daemon Tools, Alcohol, or any of those black-listed software/virtual drive programs installed.

Tech support gave him the runaround.  So he ended up doing what any of us would have done before removing Daemon tools and the like.  He got a crack, and now the game works fine.

Damn shame.

And I bet if there's a patch, he'll have to uninstall and reinstall the game b/c he's using a crack, eh?

[scottws]

In response to Pug, I'm with you... in a way.  I don't buy games anymore either.  There was a brief stint of a couple years where I shed my seafaring ways and bought everything I wanted to play or try, out of principle to show that the PC was not a lost platform, but now I don't buy (or pirate) anything really.  But I'm not replacing it with console purchases.  FPS games are still my favorite and I just can't get into those on the console for obvious reasons.  My purchases still weigh like 4 PC games for every console game.  I even try to buy multiplatform games on PC.  For instance, I'm waiting for the PC release of SH5.

As far as all the stories from reported pirates go, well we all know that there are pirates out there.  I'm not surprised by that.  As far as the made up stories go that try to show that DRM caused a problem, you know I don't really give a fuck that it's made up.  Videogame purchases have been license purchases for as long as I can remember.  It didn't used to matter.  The game was yours... the license was yours.  You didn't notice so the distinction didn't really matter.  Well now we are starting to enter a phase where videogame publishers want to rent us our software and I think it needs to be fought tooth and nail.  These arbitrary "You only get to install the game 3x or 5x" kinds of things need to end.  Now.  If someone makes up some BS story that draws attention to possible scenarios that could possibly happen due to these ludicrous schemes then good.

DRM apologists/enablers say "You know, people get pissed about all these DRM schemes but I bet only 1% of people that legitimately bought the game ever truly run into any problems because of them," or something like that.  You know what?  They might be right.  But you wait three years.  Or five years.  When people start trying to play games in a legacy sense, I guarantee the real problems that occur are enormous in number.  Do you think EA's going to care about games they sold that long ago?  Ubisoft?  They don't give a rat's fucking ass.

[idolminds]

A thread on Polycount on the same/similar subject. Polycount is home to many industry peope, mostly the artists. Heres a particular quote I like.

The PC games market isn't dying because of piracy. It's dying because it's not accessible anymore in a time where everything has become streamlined and accessible, making people lazy and comfortable ("what? open my PC and put in a new graphics card? wut?"). Hell, the PC games market isn't dying, period. The PC games market is changing, leaning more to casual games (e.g. PopCap), or niche markets with a low development cost and high return (e.g. Stardocks Sins of a Solar Empire (didn't even have copy protection(!), was pirated, but made a respectable profit that the developer and publisher seem happy with)).

And you know what, I'm happy with that.

As for Steam, if I remember correctly games delivered via Steam were cracked and pirated first week. But Steam's strength doesn't lie in being able to securely lock games down. This is impossible to do. Steam's strength is in its accessibility and ease of use (no more hunting for patches), and the fact that it's so easy to just impulse-buy games. You don't have time to change your mind on your 30 minute trip to Wal-Mart/Tesco/Game.

I think he makes some good points.

[MysterD]

Great points right there, Idol.

I think as long as there are good PC game companies like CD Projekt and Stardock that know how to treat their PC customers with some respect (and keep continuing to do so), these companies will be the ones making the money here on the PC.

As annoying as Steam can be -- with their SP games wanting activation, forcing updates on you, you have to run Steam to boot a game, some 3rd party publishers with their games still impose their install limit terms on top of the Steam protection -- there's some good things about it. They often have good weekend deals on games for cheap; especially older ones that ain't easy to find in retail boxes. No need to go patch hunting; Steam has them and can do it for you. It's very accessible. Its community tools are pretty good, too. Back-up your game onto disc as much as you want, since Steam only cares about YOU being the user running the game.