Author Topic: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.  (Read 12412 times)

Offline Pugnate

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Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« on: Friday, November 28, 2008, 05:20:14 PM »
I thought we could talk about this here. The whole crazy terrorist attack was a full front a assault, nothing like anything we've seen before, and almost something out of a Rainbow Six game. Basically, armed young men invaded and took over some massive hotels in the hotspots of India, and have been holed up inside for the past few days wreaking havoc.

Obviously, what they have done is terribly wrong, but I thought you guys might like some info on the issue. I will try to keep it short, but would appreciate it if you guys would read everything... also it is late, so I won't proof read till tomorrow. :P

Quick history lesson:

It is basically all about Kashmir, a disputed territory located between India and Pakistan. It is an issue which Barack Obama said he would like to solve, because he believes it to be the key to all the instability in the region:

http://www.apakistannews.com/barack-obama-kashmir-talk-88397

Basically, the British empire was sucking the Indian subcontinent dry in the 1900s, and treating Indian citizens as second class people in their own country (like it was doing with the citizens of every country).

An Indian solider in the late 1900s named Mangal Pandey upset over what was happening, took on his superior British officers. He was hanged weeks later for his actions, which resulted in the first riots against the British rule. Then came a man named Gandhi, who struggled for years and eventually helped India achieve independence in the late 1940s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi

At the time when India achieved independence, the Muslims of the country demanded their own country. They had been long discriminated against by The British as well as the Hindus -- as well documented by British and Indian historians. Apparently the Muslims were robbed of their wealth, land, status etc.

So basically it was decided that all the regions of India populated mostly by Muslims would go to Pakistan, while those populated by Sikhs and Hindus would go to India. While all the areas were divided as agreed, a crucial piece of land, Kashmir which held many resources and strategic value was forcibly kept by India, despite the fact that it has a 83% Muslim population. Unfortunately, all calls from the United Nations (which was just as useless back then) for India to hold a referendum in Kashmir were ignored, despite being part of the agreement.

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In the last days of 1948, a ceasefire was agreed under UN auspices; however, since the plebiscite demanded by the UN was never conducted, relations between India and Pakistan soured

(plebiscite is another word for referendum)

That was in the 1950s, and the two countries have fought three wars over the territory since.

You can read more about Kashmir on the encyclopedia Britannica online:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/312908/Kashmir

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Although there was a clear Muslim majority in Kashmir before the 1947 partition and its economic, cultural, and geographic contiguity with the Muslim-majority area of the Punjab could be convincingly demonstrated, the political developments during and after the partition resulted in a division of the region. Pakistan was left with territory that, although basically Muslim in character, was thinly populated, relatively inaccessible, and economically underdeveloped. The largest Muslim group, situated in the Vale of Kashmir and estimated to number more than half the population of the entire region, lay in Indian-administered territory, with its former outlets via the Jhelum valley route blocked.

Kashmir even now is considered disputed territory by the United Nations.

Unfortunately, the Indian portion of Kashmir is treated like jail cell. It is kept under control worse than North Korea, and the atrocities there are constantly reported by the United Nations -- yet it does nothing
Some disturbing stuff:

http://www.ummah.net/kashmir/atroc/index.htm

Basically, Kashmirs are deprived of basic rights. India says it is because they wish to flush out the militant elements, but there are constant reports of rape, torture, mutilation etc.

Unfortunately, the Kashmiri "freedom fighters" can be just as barbaric, as evidenced by the events of the past 48 hours.





Offline Pugnate

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #1 on: Friday, November 28, 2008, 05:25:38 PM »
PRESENT DAY:


TIME magazine did an excellent piece on the Kashmir issue after the terrorist attack in Mumbai:

India's Muslims in Crisis :
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1862650,00.html?cnn=yes

Here are some quotes:

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The disembodied voice was chilling in its rage. A gunman, holed up in the Oberoi Trident hotel in Mumbai (formerly Bombay), where some 40 people had been taken hostage, told an Indian news channel that the attacks were revenge for the persecution of Muslims in India. "We love this as our country, but when our mothers and sisters were being killed, where was everybody?" he asked via telephone. No answer came. But then he probably wasn't expecting one.

The roots of Muslim rage run deep in India, nourished by a long-held sense of injustice over what many Indian Muslims believe is institutionalized discrimination against the country's largest minority group. The disparities between Muslims, who make up 13.4% of the population, and India's Hindus, who hover at around 80%, are striking. There are exceptions, of course, but generally speaking, Muslim Indians have shorter life spans, worse health, lower literacy levels and lower-paying jobs. Add to that toxic brew the lingering resentment over 2002's anti-Muslim riots in the state of Gujarat. The riots, instigated by Hindu nationalists, killed some 2,000 people, most of them Muslims. To this day, few of the perpetrators have been convicted. (See pictures of the terrorist shootings in Mumbai.)

That's pretty much what I meant right there.

Killing innocents can NEVER be justified... of course (I don't understand how the fuck they could justify killing tourists). But take a look at that... Nearly 2000 people killed in a riot in 2002 by Hindus, most of them Muslims, and most were BURNED alive. This is pretty much the same thing happening in Kashmir since the 1950s. Grow up in atmosphere like that, and you are bound to be an animal.

I also find that phone call from that terrorist in the hotel to be disturbing...

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Kashmir, a Muslim-dominated state whose fate had been left undecided in the chaos that led up to partition, remains a suppurating wound in India's Muslim psyche. As the cause of three wars between India and Pakistan — one of which nearly went nuclear in 1999 — Kashmir has become a symbol of profound injustice to Indian Muslims, who believe that their government cares little for Kashmir's claim of independence — which is based upon a 1948 U.N. resolution promising a plebiscite to determine the Kashmiri people's future. That frustration has spilled into the rest of India in the form of several devastating terrorist attacks that have made Indian Muslims both perpetrators and victims.

A mounting sense of persecution, fueled by the government's seeming reluctance to address the brutal anti-Muslim riots that killed more than 2,000 in the state of Gujarat in 2002, has aided the cause of homegrown militant groups

More on that 2002 riot:


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1828144,00.html

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The group's biggest grievance by far, however, is the unresolved business of the 2002 anti-Muslim violence centered in that same city, Ahmedabad. After an attack on Hindu pilgrims in another part of the state, up to 2,000 Muslims were targeted and killed, many of them tortured, burned or raped, according to reports by local and international human-rights groups. The Chief Minister of the state, a BJP hard-liner named Narendra Modi, was widely criticized for failing to stop the attacks. Modi has denied those claims, has never faced any charges and, despite the criticism, has twice been re-elected as Chief Minister.

The Gujarat riots, and Modi in particular, have become a rallying cry for extremist groups, who have drowned out the voices of moderation among India's Muslims. "We have a completely extraordinary situation post-2002 in Gujarat," says Harsh Mander, a former civil-service officer who works with victims of the riots. Other spasms of sectarian violence in India have been followed by "some kind of healing process," he says, with official remorse and legal action. But six years after the Gujarat riots, only a handful of cases have led to convictions. The Indian Supreme Court forced the state's government in 2004 to reopen nearly 2,000 cases that had been thrown out for lack of evidence. Mander adds, "We have reduced an entire population to second-class citizens."

Stuff like this unfortunately feeds the terrorists..

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #2 on: Friday, November 28, 2008, 05:39:30 PM »
Pug, my unflinching attitude toward any event like this is that no cause matters.  It doesn't matter.  I don't care how much suffering anyone has endured or for how long.  Savagery such as this can never be allowed to bear fruit.  The rabid animals first need to be exterminated.  Then, after they are no longer an issue, the possibility of righting other injustices opens up.  I don't even want to see a successful resolution of the Kashmir issue that happens to coincide with brutality of this magnitude.  First, wipe out the mortal enemy.  Then, after enough time passes without it happening again, address the unrelated injustice.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #3 on: Friday, November 28, 2008, 05:50:24 PM »
I can't possibly have a real position on this, much less any real informed understanding, especially with how utterly, rabidly furious a lot of stateside Muslim organizations have made me (CAIR, etc.) in the recent past.  I just don't know how to process any of this information anymore.  I've had enough problems, but this is just turning me into a truly hate-filled and bitter person.  I don't understand the world I live in.  Maybe I never did, but it seems with every passing day the deficit grows larger.

EDIT - Looking at that post, it seems so selfish, but I don't really know what else to think.  Not every situation like this will affect me or be something that hits close to home, yet it always seems to feel that way, to darken my perspective and my conscience and my will.  I suppose it's only showing how truly powerful strife can really be.  Even as a distant thing, it eats away at the soul.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Xessive

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #4 on: Friday, November 28, 2008, 05:59:35 PM »
What is wrong with people?

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #5 on: Friday, November 28, 2008, 06:10:47 PM »
Pug, my unflinching attitude toward any event like this is that no cause matters.  It doesn't matter.  I don't care how much suffering anyone has endured or for how long.  Savagery such as this can never be allowed to bear fruit.  The rabid animals first need to be exterminated.  Then, after they are no longer an issue, the possibility of righting other injustices opens up.  I don't even want to see a successful resolution of the Kashmir issue that happens to coincide with brutality of this magnitude.  First, wipe out the mortal enemy.  Then, after enough time passes without it happening again, address the unrelated injustice.

But just killing people without addressing the underlying issue solves nothing, because more people will pop up in their place. I agree here that no cause matters, mostly because there is nothing that could cause this other than pure hate. And you can't really eliminate that. I guess what I'm saying is, look at Iraq. We knew almost nothing about the people going in and it put us in a world of hurt. Who was talking about Sunnis and Shiites before we invaded? There is definitely merit in looking at these sorts of issues, even if it doesn't justify what is taking place.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #6 on: Friday, November 28, 2008, 06:23:12 PM »
I doubt that anyone here isn't smart enough to see what a horrible precedent it would be for terrorism to help an underlying legitimate cause.  It can't even appear to help.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #7 on: Friday, November 28, 2008, 07:36:44 PM »
In this case I agree with you. But surely you can understand how your logic can lead down a slippery slope.
« Last Edit: Friday, November 28, 2008, 10:37:17 PM by Ghandi »

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #8 on: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 12:37:40 AM »
Pug, my unflinching attitude toward any event like this is that no cause matters.  It doesn't matter.  I don't care how much suffering anyone has endured or for how long.  Savagery such as this can never be allowed to bear fruit.  The rabid animals first need to be exterminated.  Then, after they are no longer an issue, the possibility of righting other injustices opens up.  I don't even want to see a successful resolution of the Kashmir issue that happens to coincide with brutality of this magnitude.  First, wipe out the mortal enemy.  Then, after enough time passes without it happening again, address the unrelated injustice.

Again, attacking and killing 160 civilians is extremely barbaric and can't be justified in anyway. They were attacking the wrong people and innocent people, and it was senseless. Aside from foreigners, over a 100 innocent Indians were also killed.

Having said that, I do agree.  But when talking about the rabid animals, surely you don't mean just the bastards who attacked the hotels last night? There is a lot of info I posted up there. If the Indians have occupied Kashmir for the past 50 years and raped and tortured the people there -- as reported by independent sources -- then surely they too are part of the savage circle?

Just because they are part of the government, they don't have the right to be barbaric?

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Then, after they are no longer an issue, the possibility of righting other injustices opens up

Well after they are no longer an issue, the injustices continue. It was 2002 since nearly 2000 Muslims were raped/burned alive/mutilated. There was no investigation by the hard line state minister. That's six years right?

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First, wipe out the mortal enemy.  Then, after enough time passes without it happening again, address the unrelated injustice..

Right. That's the same attitude the terrorists have.

So what you are saying is that the Indian government wipe out the terrorists, as well as those legitimately resisting the occupation...and then address their own atrocities?

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I can't possibly have a real position on this, much less any real informed understanding, especially with how utterly, rabidly furious a lot of stateside Muslim organizations have made me (CAIR, etc.) in the recent past.  I just don't know how to process any of this information anymore.  I've had enough problems, but this is just turning me into a truly hate-filled and bitter person.  I don't understand the world I live in.  Maybe I never did, but it seems with every passing day the deficit grows larger.

Well, I just looked up CAIR for the first time. What have they done?

I distrust religious organizations in general though. Honestly, I distrust organized religion in general. When I am ultimate ruler of this planet, I will only allow religious functions to take place when there is one attendee at a time. :P :P

Quote
I doubt that anyone here isn't smart enough to see what a horrible precedent it would be for terrorism to help an underlying legitimate cause.  It can't even appear to help.


Absolutely. I see what you are saying here. Pretty soon everyone would start bombing anything to get attention. But tell me, doesn't the world just reek of selfishness though? China, Saudi Arabia, Kashmir, Sierra Leone etc etc... countries where atrocities and bullshit happen all the time, and have been for years upon years, yet no country gives a damn because there is no money in it?

Bosnia was one place where the world actually did something... but they were more motivated by oil than anything else.


Offline Cobra951

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #9 on: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 04:50:49 AM »
I know what you are saying.  Please understand the complete intentional disconnect in my mind between the injustice in Kashmir and the events in Mumbai.  One in no way will make me notice the other.  Senseless massacre in no way will draw my attention, action or compassion toward the other.

Offline scottws

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #10 on: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 08:26:41 AM »
Maybe this was false information reported by the news, but I heard the gunmen were asking for the locations of American and British hotel residents.  I guess for the purpose of killing them, but I don't really know.  What do these people have to do with Kashmir?

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #11 on: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 10:12:23 AM »
Didn't you hear?  Killing Americans solves pretty much every problem.  It's like magic.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #12 on: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 11:14:14 AM »
I understand your point of view, and I do agree with your assessment that providing attention sets a dangerous precedent.

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Maybe this was false information reported by the news, but I heard the gunmen were asking for the locations of American and British hotel residents.  I guess for the purpose of killing them, but I don't really know.  What do these people have to do with Kashmir?

Nope, that is correct... the reason I think this has to do with Kashmir is because the group taking responsibility are apparently some new organization called the "Deccan Mujaheddin". Deccan is South East Indian, while Mujaheddin means someone who takes part in Jihad. Plus one of the terrorists holed up talked about the murder of his mother and sister.

I think the reason they were looking for foreigners was so that they could get maximum media attention.

Anyway some comments from the popular separatist groups of Kashmir are coming in, and they are condemning the attack. Glad to see them showing sense here...

Offline scottws

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #13 on: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 01:32:31 PM »
Maximum media attention... Whatever.  If their goal was retribution for atrocities commited in Kashmir by Indians, then why bring other, unrelated foreigners into it at all?  It makes it seem like it would undermine and overshadow what their main objective was.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #14 on: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 01:51:04 PM »
You are accusing these people of logic?

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #15 on: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 03:42:30 PM »
Only of forfeited humanity.  Put them to sleep.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #16 on: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 10:41:34 PM »

Offline iPPi

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #17 on: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 11:26:16 PM »
so my cowoerker is planning on going to india.  i wa slike you're not going to mumbai right!?!?! he said he might stop over there but probably not now. 

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #18 on: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 12:10:39 AM »
Amazing pictures.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #19 on: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 02:06:28 AM »

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #20 on: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 10:55:08 AM »
In the pics where they show the terrorists, they all look calm and collected, like they are taking a stroll through the park. Scary.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #21 on: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 02:24:53 PM »
I've been intentionally ignoring this since I posted last.  No TV or internet news for me since.  A headline on our newspaper this morning reads that it's over.  5 Americans dead, and I'm sure many others.  The only purpose this will serve for America is to remind us why we need the ability to eviscerate hellholes overnight.  The voices clamoring for cutting off support to the military will get drowned out for a while.  People forget quickly, though, which is what these fuckers will never understand.  They killed 5 Americans, and they strengthened us as much as if they had killed 5000.  If this is war, holy or otherwise, they made a huge strategic mistake.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #22 on: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 04:52:32 PM »
Holy shit, I haven't really been following this but that's insane.  I actually just kind of started looking at this today as I remembered a girl I had been on a few dates with here and there over the last six months had left to go to India and Pakistan like a week ago.  I don't think she was going to any major city centers and her background is Indian so I think she'd be fine (well...in my mind), but I heard about a girl from here dying and was like "oh yeah...fuck!".  It (obviously?) wasn't her, but it kind of brought this more to my attention.  I seriously hope she's okay but I don't have any way of finding out at all. She kind of left abruptly and all I have is her cellphone number.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #23 on: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 05:29:58 PM »
Couldn't you...call her?

Offline gpw11

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #24 on: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 06:52:31 PM »
I can say with 100% certainty that she doesn't have her phone with her.  You do raise a good point in that someone else might have it.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #25 on: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 06:56:43 PM »
I'm assuming that there's an amusing / somewhat tragic backstory to this.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #26 on: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 07:23:23 PM »
Not really at all.  I met this chick last summer, went out with her a few times but we were both pretty busy at the time and nothing went down.  I met up with her again a month or so ago and we got (or at least I did) pretty drunk and we made out a bit.  We didn't really have the chance to meet up again for a couple of weeks and I eventually got a phone call saying she was going on this trip in a couple days.  I didn't ask for a email or anything but told her she should call when she got back.  That pretty much sums it up.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #27 on: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 07:44:20 PM »
Well I guess you were due for at least one normal relationship story.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #28 on: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 08:59:28 PM »
Yeah, uh that totally wasn't a relationship.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Indian terrorist attack, and the Kashmir issue.
« Reply #29 on: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 09:04:17 PM »
Well now we're just arguing semantics.