Topic: Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2

[W7RE]

I got a chuckle out of the FAGS video. I didn't even make the connection and realize the acronym, but now that I do and I know people bitched, it's even funnier.

[MysterD]

You just knew the politically correct crowd was gonna eat this up and slam IW - especially since COD such pop-culture now.

The joke got a chuckle out of me, but that was about it. I figured the joke would've been funnier and rowdier than what it turned out to be, actually - given the uproar over this ordeal.

[MysterD]

Maximum players supported by ANY version (PC, 360, and PS3) of Modern Warfare 2 is EIGHTEEN - b/c the maps were built around that.

[idolminds]

This is interesting. Direct2Drive refuses to sell MW2 because of Steam.

Thanks for your interest in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 from Direct2Drive.

At Direct2Drive, we believe strongly that when you buy a game from us, you shouldn't be forced to install and run a 3rd party software client to be able to play the game you purchased. Because COD MW 2 requires you, the consumer, to do that, we aren't able to offer the game via Direct2Drive at this time.

If you're interested in this game or future games being free of any additional software clients, please let us know by sending us an e-mail.

I know someone said something like this would happen. Forcing the install of someone elses storefront will cause the other storefronts to not want to sell the game. It was probably Brad Wardell but I'm to lazy to find the interview.

Though its odd that D2D would pick out MW2. They sell FEAR 2 and DoW2, and both of those games require Steam. Plus some others. Maybe its not about Steam, but IWNET?

UPDATE
In non-shocking news, Stardock refuses to sell the game on Impulse for the same reasons.

[Quemaqua]

Three cheers for everybody that isn't Steam!

[MysterD]

This is interesting. Direct2Drive refuses to sell MW2 because of Steam. I know someone said something like this would happen. Forcing the install of someone elses storefront will cause the other storefronts to not want to sell the game. It was probably Brad Wardell but I'm to lazy to find the interview.

From Idol's Thread on Brad Wardell speaking about Steam should not be the only option.

The problem is that Steamworks requires the user to have a Steam account and Steam installed to use it – even if you buy it at retail or through a third party like Direct2Drive. I think that’s the basic strategy for Steamworks -- give developers a bunch of “free” features that they used to have to pay for (copy protection, DRM, GameSpy type stuff) with the only catch is that the user has to become a Steam user and have Steam installed. As a result, something like Dawn of War 2, for instance, won’t be on Impulse.

EDIT:

Though its odd that D2D would pick out MW2. They sell FEAR 2 and DoW2, and both of those games require Steam. Plus some others. Maybe its not about Steam, but IWNET?

I don't think it's b/c of IWNet, Idol - I think it's b/c MW2 requires Steam - which is a direct competitor to them. Maybe now they're taking a full-fledged stance against Steam?

D2D does sells GTA4 for the PC, which requires The Rockstar Social Club.

D2D also does sell Saints Row 2, which requires Steam.

[idolminds]

Yeah, I know now that its not IWNet. Its Steam. I just wasnt sure at first since D2D already sold games that need Steam so it seemed odd that they would have a problem with it now.

But now that Impulse and GamersGate have stepped forward and said they will also refuse to sell Modern Warfare 2 because of the Steam integration, its pretty clear whats going on.

Its funny some people are saying they are dumb for not selling it. "But they will at least make some money off the sale! Now the only place to get it is Steam or retail, this plan is going to backfire!" Thats not the point of this. Sites like Impulse and GamersGate have already lost the battle for MW2. No matter where you buy it from, gamers are going to have to use Steam to play. This isnt a protest against MW2, its not even really against Steam. Its against developers/publishers using Steamworks and locking their games into a single service. They want to pressure devs to not use Steamworks since they will then refuse to sell the game.

And really, you cant blame them for taking such a stance. People should be supporting them in their effort as well. Vendor lock in is bad not just for them, but for us gamers as well.

[MysterD]

But now that Impulse and GamersGate have stepped forward and said they will also refuse to sell Modern Warfare 2 because of the Steam integration, its pretty clear whats going on.

Its funny some people are saying they are dumb for not selling it. "But they will at least make some money off the sale! Now the only place to get it is Steam or retail, this plan is going to backfire!"

Problem I think D2D and other digital stores see that if I buy said game from D2D that requires Steam, I'm likely goin' to wind up headin' back to Steam to possibly buy more games - b/c this is what said game requires. Why should I head back to D2D, if the game is NOT a D2D exclusive?

Also, I'm sure D2D and other digital stores don't feel like giving the "Go bother Valve" run around - especially if some goof asks about "I'm having problems w/ Steam" ordeal. I'm sure D2D wants to deal w/ their own games and those problems - not games from another site.

Thats not the point of this. Sites like Impulse and GamersGate have already lost the battle for MW2. No matter where you buy it from, gamers are going to have to use Steam to play. This isnt a protest against MW2, its not even really against Steam. Its against developers/publishers using Steamworks and locking their games into a single service. They want to pressure devs to not use Steamworks since they will then refuse to sell the game.

And really, you cant blame them for taking such a stance. People should be supporting them in their effort as well. Vendor lock in is bad not just for them, but for us gamers as well.

If I was D2D, Impulse, Gamersgate - I'd have the same complaint. I'd not want a game I'm selling to use someone else's client that also SELLS games. That's a conflict of interests.

I also don't like how many games on the PC have their own version for each b/c they all seem to use their own DRM and their own patches (if they use any) - i.e. buy D2D version, stick to D2D patches; buy from Steam, stick w/ Steam patches; buy from directly, stick to their patches.

Some games - if buy the original game from D2D, you will likely have to get expansion from D2D; retail version of expansion might not work w/ original said game. Or, you'll have to re-buy everything. It's annoying.
 
Relic got it right for DOW1 - whatever version you buy of Dawn of War + expansions, they'll work w/ each other. I could go buy DOW from say Steam, then buy DOW - Dark Crusade from Impulse - they'd all work together.

Probably was a pain-in-the-ass in their eyes, so they decided - fuck it, DOW2 uses Steam period.

[Xessive]

The part that's especially annying about DoW2 is that it uses Steam as well GFWL. I think it was a licensing problem that Relic fell into. I just wish they had chosen one or the other rather than screwing us both ways.

[MysterD]

The part that's especially annying about DoW2 is that it uses Steam as well GFWL. I think it was a licensing problem that Relic fell into. I just wish they had chosen one or the other rather than screwing us both ways.

Oh, I forgot that DOW2's MP uses G4WL exclusively. Man, that sucks - I'm not too fond of G4WL.

But, yeah - would've been better if DOW2 uses either just Steam, just G4WL, or say just some Relic dedicated servers for EVERYTHING.

[Xessive]

The odd part is that Relic had already made their own system for Company of Heroes; you create an account with RelicOnline and register your CD keys, kinda like Steam except its built right into the game. It even has a matchmaking system. Then for unknown reasons they ditch it and sign on with Steam AND GFWL. I guess they thought it would take the load off.

For COD:MW2 I don't really understand why they didn't just use Gamespy instead of making a whole other application and registration. Do they believe that people love making new accounts and registering with services all the time?!

[MysterD]

The odd part is that Relic had already made their own system for Company of Heroes; you create an account with RelicOnline and register your CD keys, kinda like Steam except its built right into the game. It even has a matchmaking system. Then for unknown reasons they ditch it and sign on with Steam AND GFWL. I guess they thought it would take the load off.

For COD:MW2 I don't really understand why they didn't just use Gamespy instead of making a whole other application and registration. Do they believe that people love making new accounts and registering with services all the time?!

Yeah, I got too many gaming-based accounts, as is - Steam, G4WL, D2D, Impulse, GameSpy, NCSoft, GameRanger, XFire, etc etc - do I really need any more? I'm sure there's more out there - but yeah, enuff already!

You're right - they came up w/ RelicOnline, yet suddenly ditch it? Was it too much work? Did someone (like THQ or Valve) give them some big bucks to go w/ Steam? What's up w/ all this?

[Pugnate]

Well, that's one thing I am pleased with -- that they didn't use gamespy.

It is like you go to someone's house and want to use the washroom... but instead of letting you go to the washroom in the house, the host hands you the keys to an outhouse.

Slightly off topic, but come to think of it, I'd love to be able to ask my guests to use the outhouse instead of my own washroom.

[idolminds]

Your outhouse has a lock on it? I guess people really will steal anything.

[Quemaqua]

There was some interesting talk about MW2 on the most recent PC Gamer podcast.  Man, I wouldn't go anywhere near that piece of shit.  It's like they took out every single thing that could possibly interest me, replaced it with dogshit, then let it sit out under a heat lamp for a week.  Not that I had any real interest before, but I at least always figured that the first game was good, just not worth the price for me personally.  Now I'm fully convinced that IW should go fuck themselves since that's basically what they told gamers to go do.

The best part of the podcast chatter was when they were talking about how someone asked them if the PC version of the game was just a straight console port.  They said, "Oh no, it totally isn't.  We let you use mouse controls and you can change the resolution the game displays at."  And apparently they tried to say this with a straight face.

Seriously, fuck Infinity Ward.  You couldn't pay me to play any of their shit at this point.

Anyway, Idol made a good post up there.  Vendor lock-in is bad for everyone.  I wish people would realize this.

[W7RE]

You know what it is?

"The PC is dead as a gaming platform.

Sincerely,
Microsoft
Bungie
Epic
Gearbox
Infinity Ward
Remedy
id Software
and many others

PS: The PC platform now belongs to Blizzard."




So the the gaming platforms are now:

Xbox 360
Playstation 3
PSP
Battle.net
Steam

[Pugnate]

Your outhouse has a lock on it? I guess people really will steal anything.

haha no I don't have an outhouse.

But here, the garbage bins are made of concrete.

They used to be made of plastic or whatever, but people stole them.

[Pugnate]

There was some interesting talk about MW2 on the most recent PC Gamer podcast.  Man, I wouldn't go anywhere near that piece of shit.  It's like they took out every single thing that could possibly interest me, replaced it with dogshit, then let it sit out under a heat lamp for a week.  Not that I had any real interest before, but I at least always figured that the first game was good, just not worth the price for me personally.  Now I'm fully convinced that IW should go fuck themselves since that's basically what they told gamers to go do.

The best part of the podcast chatter was when they were talking about how someone asked them if the PC version of the game was just a straight console port.  They said, "Oh no, it totally isn't.  We let you use mouse controls and you can change the resolution the game displays at."  And apparently they tried to say this with a straight face.

Seriously, fuck Infinity Ward.  You couldn't pay me to play any of their shit at this point.

Anyway, Idol made a good post up there.  Vendor lock-in is bad for everyone.  I wish people would realize this.

IW come off as such assholes. They are like id in the ole' John Romero sports car days, minus the class id showed to its fans.

[idolminds]

Derek Smart talks

And sadly, people listen. It appears hes one of the people that "misses the point".

[MysterD]

More from Derek Smart in that thread on Shacknews.

By:  dsmart[3000ad]
Well, I've thought a lot about it and I don't have a strong opinion about it either way.

From a gamer's standpoint, I'm not happy about it. Not because I setup ded servers, but because I want to be able to not only choose the server that I play on, but also to be able to join servers that my friends are on. I have those options in COD4 and I won't in MW2. But until I actually play the game, I can't say for sure how upset I am about it.

From a developer's standpoint, it is a no-brainer. They went for the console model on the PC as it is the path of least resistance and which has both pros and cons.

At the end of the day, they're going to make about 90+% of their revenue on the console side and what they lose on the PC side is negligible when you tally everything.

Lets face it, the PC is no longer the favorite platform because of piracy. When you're making $30m+ games, you tend to regard the PC as you would residual DVD sales of a movie that ran previously. If you make money, so be it - if you don't, oh well.

And the PC piracy numbers on COD4 are primarily to blame for their stance on this. Can't say I blame them. If they control the servers, they can better control the piracy of the game since you have to play on those servers. Unless and until pirates find a way to run the game P2P and bypass IWNet, they have achieved their goal. Whats not to like?

When gamers think about this MW2 debacle they need to remember that piracy brought us all here. And it is piracy that is ruining the platform, leading to most mainstream PC games being nothing but console ports and the like.

The truth is, for large releases like this - unless adequate countermeasures are in place - the PC version is just not going to be a financial gain and as such is only to be regarded as residual sales.

[MysterD]

No surprise - some GameStops are selling Modern Warfare 2 early.

[W7RE]

I called my Gamestop and they said Pennsylvania stores were the only ones given that permission to sell it early.


From Robert Bowling's twitter:

ANY store selling #MW2 early is in violation of street date. There are no "special permissions". That said, we won't punish players for it.

Oh, and:

@traqglow if you bought a retail copy on PC, you can play it on 11.10.09

I guess because of Steam it won't activate until 11/10.

[idolminds]

Exactly. Way to go retarded street date enforcement.

Oh, and if you cant wait, why not watch someone else play through the entire game? Its only 4 hours long.

[Quemaqua]

<@Quemaqua> I feel a little sick right now.
<@Quemaqua> I'm watching one of the MW2 videos, and apparently you play as the bad guys at some point?  Because this video is basically 5 minutes of four guys, including the player, going through an airport and murdering civilians en masse.
<@Quemaqua> Like, watching them drag their wounded selves across the floor, screaming in pain, leaving trails of blood, and executing them.
<@idolminds> yeah, pug posted about that and locked the thread
<@idolminds> its been making the rounds
<@idolminds> aparently you're playing under cover and dont actually have to participate but...yeah
<@Quemaqua> I'm generally not one to get squeemish about stuff like that, but that's was pretty fucking hard to watch.
<@idolminds> if only jack thompson was still around
<@Quemaqua> That's literally the first time a game has ever made me feel like that.
<@idolminds> I know a lot of people complained about it, and while I havent seen it...I dont know how to react. They are showing how awful shooting people actually is, not this "2 shots, a little blood, and a silent colapse to the ground" that every other game shows
<@Quemaqua> Yeah.
<@idolminds> which is probably a good thing overall
<@Quemaqua> I can see it being a very powerful storytelling device.  My issue is making the player *do* it.  If I were playing that game, I think I would have stopped, put it back in the box, and thrown it in the garbage.
<@Quemaqua> If it were a non-interactive sequence where you were watching someone else do it, that would be one thing, but giving me control and basically saying, "Here you go, have fun"?  I don't get it.
<@idolminds> I think making the player do it is the point. Its supposed to be uncomfortable. "Is this really what you want?" sort of thing
<@Quemaqua> I'd really need some context in terms of the rest of the game.  That was literally the first video I clicked, which I clicked at random just to see some gameplay.
<@idolminds> I read that you can pass that level without firing a shot.
<@Quemaqua> Still... even with context I can't picture myself being okay with that.
<@Quemaqua> I would never want to watch that again.
<@Quemaqua> I mean, I'm incredibly desensitized to fake violence for most stuff, but that was different.  People have called games murder simulators for years, but that was the first time I ever saw it actually fit that description.
<@idolminds> I can agree with that. Though I think this is actually a good thing for games. You couldnt make someone feel like that in any other medium
<@Quemaqua> That's true, but I don't know that I'd call it good.
<@idolminds> I mean, seeing "the bad guy" kill some people is like...normal. Even having "the good guy" do it for dramatic effect isnt unusual. But its not either. Its you.
<@Quemaqua> Again, context would be required for me to understand it better and get more perspective, but I got the same feeling from that as I do when I look at pictures of the holocaust.
<@idolminds> Thats almost funny considering the history of the series
<@Quemaqua> Heh.
<@idolminds> And it just goes to show what we see in gaming. The rest of the game you're shooting people and thats apparently ok
<@idolminds> They made this different
<@idolminds> I should probably watch it to see what the fuss is about
<@Quemaqua> Shooting people is relative.  I mean, war is war.  Soldiers shoot soldiers.  But any other game that's had you murdering civilians like that was always just... so fake.  Usually parody like GTA or whatever.
<@Quemaqua> And I get the idea behind the debate of whether it's better to portray death as funny or terrible, but 95% of the people in the world can already distinguish the difference.
<@idolminds> yeah
<@Quemaqua> Which is why guys like me have played games for years where people die all over the place but it doesn't mean anything.  It's just silly shit.  Yet I watch that and I get... angry, somehow.  My brain doesn't want it to exist.
<@Quemaqua> And to the 5% of the nutjobs who can't distinguish the difference, the one that feels real is probably just as funny as the stuff that doesn't.
<@idolminds> heh, kind of like me and the cat thing in Drag me to Hell (or Postal 2...)
<@Quemaqua> Yeah, I have trouble with that too.
<@idolminds> I have to hand it to IW, though. It took some balls to put something like that in what is going to be a HUGE game. I wonder if we're going to hear from the politicians on this one
<@idolminds> I mean, its not like they needed controvery to push units
<@Quemaqua> I suspect so.
<@Quemaqua> If you can take a jaded motherfucker like me and offend my sense of decency when I've been on the opposite side of the argument since the argument started, I can't picture normal people not taking issue.
<@idolminds> heh
<@Quemaqua> Especially when you have the kind of advertising they do.  I had no issue with it before, but I'm instantly offended at the route they took.  If you have that kind of shit in your game, it should not be advertised as some hip shit with rap music.
<@idolminds> damn all this off screen cam crap
<@Quemaqua> Heh, yeah.  Five minutes of them zipping up and a blank screen.

[Pugnate]

I doubt it is 4 hours... I am pretty sure it is about 6-7 if you play like a normal person. It was the same thing with MW1.

[Pugnate]

I'm watching one of the MW2 videos, and apparently you play as the bad guys at some point?  Because this video is basically 5 minutes of four guys, including the player, going through an airport and murdering civilians en masse.

This is why I locked that thread. Initially, I was under the assumption that you did play as one of the baddies and it felt disgusting... but in context, it made sense and felt quite acceptable. At the same time, I felt it was a huge spoiler, so I locked the thread.

(click to show/hide)

You play an undercover CIA agent, and are trying to stop a nuke from going off. You are undercover during that scene and aren't supposed to participate in the killing, but you don't try to stop them, because you weigh the lives of a few civilians in an airport vs the lives of millions in a nation.

[Quemaqua]

And I sort of get it in context, you know?  My first impulse isn't to get pissed, cry foul, and try to string up IW for it.  But at the same time... I don't ever want to watch that again.  Ever.

[Pugnate]

I have to admit, my first reaction was the same as yours. I guess it was the same for a lot of people, thus the outcry.

Have you played the first MW game? Even if you have to visit the underworld store, I suggest you do it. Just give it a shot.

[Quemaqua]

I still haven't.  I've seen enough of it online to know that it's just another shooter and I don't really see what the excitement is about.  I mean, it looks like a tight, polished game, don't get me wrong.  I've never argued that.  But it just doesn't grab me.  In theory I might have been interested later on in taking both the first and second games together at once, but not so much after watching that.

[W7RE]

I was talking to a friend in ventrilo the other day about that scene. We both watched it and I don't know, I don't condone stuff like that, but when I saw the guy crawling along wounded, trying to get away, and then he got shot dead, I let out a little giggle. My friend said it made him sick and he wasn't sure if he wanted that game anymore.

The thing is, no matter how close to reality it is, no matter how realistic it looks, not matter how much it mirrors horrors that have happened in real life, I never really feel like that's a real person being shot. I look up photos and videos of real people being killed in various ways all the time, and I never giggle, I never laugh. I just can't get myself to that point with a video game, and knowing it's not real completely removes from me anything resembling sorrow or empathy. Maybe if it was a recreation of a real event like 9/11 it would hit a nerve with me, but even then I think they'd have to use the names or likenesses of real victims (which would never happen) for me to really feel that connection.

At the end of the day, no matter how horrible, repulsive, offensive, whatever, I can't forget that it's just a video game. I can try, but it doesn't work. I can even be invested in the characters and their well being, but it's still in the sense that these are the friends of my fake video game character.

[Xessive]

I can relate to W7RE, I always remind myself that it's just a game or a movie. Still I can't deny some moments that really got me with certain characters.

In Final Fantasy VII

(click to show/hide)

Aerith's death weighed heavily on me. It was an emotional moment.

In Half-Life: Episode Two

(click to show/hide)

the scene when Alyx was killed moved me, I didn't tear up or anything but after having played HL and HLE1 she grew on me. It was quite dramatic.

In CoD4MW I didn't really care about "Paul Jackson" because there was no point of relation to him as a character. Even Soap MacTavish was barely relevant (though still more than Jackson). That's the key, I have to care about a character to feel anything when the drama comes. The only character I cared about in CoD4MW was Captain Price, who's just awesome.

That's just me though, I always look for a story and characters I can relate to. Which makes chess challenging to enjoy

[Pugnate]

In Half-Life: Episode Two

(click to show/hide)

the scene when Alyx was killed moved me, I didn't tear up or anything but after having played HL and HLE1 she grew on me. It was quite dramatic.

(click to show/hide)

What? That never happened... it was her dad.

[Xessive]

(click to show/hide)

What? That never happened... it was her dad.

(click to show/hide)

It was her dad in the end, which was a very touching moment too. Near the beginning of E2 Alyx is stabbed by an antlion and she is presumed dead, then later she's magically revived.

[W7RE]

In CoD4MW I didn't really care about "Paul Jackson" because there was no point of relation to him as a character. Even Soap MacTavish was barely relevant (though still more than Jackson). That's the key, I have to care about a character to feel anything when the drama comes. The only character I cared about in CoD4MW was Captain Price, who's just awesome.

I felt the same way. I think it's mostly because you're playing as them, so they become blank people with no personality. The end of the game was less of an overall loss, but it hit harder than the thing with Jackson. Gordon Freeman is sort of different because of the way other people react to him. You still know nothing about his personality, but you grow to love his reputation and the way people react positively to him. Soap and Jackson didn't have that. Though with Soap being in MW2 and you not playing him (as far as I know), he may matter more to the player, especially to those who played through MW and know what he's been through.

[MysterD]

This article says that console gamers should be like PC gamers and demand dedicated servers.

[W7RE]

From Ice-T's Twitter:

[idolminds]

hahahaha

[MysterD]

hahahaha

Ice-T will be done w/ that MW2 SP so fast, he'll be heading right back to Borderlands...

[Ghandi]

D, no more jokes for you. Ever.

...


That pic is hilarious. What's with those nvgs? They look weird.

[PyroMenace]

Alright, all MW2 news and complaints aside, did anybody pick it up tonight?