Topic: Just let them boody die already...

[Pugnate]

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=14493

[Quemaqua]

We've already wasted how much?  It should be obvious to these fucking morons by now that it was never going to work.  You know, like every fucking American screamed at them a few months back.

[gpw11]

Were there really that many people against it?

[Quemaqua]

My prior statement was obviously hyperbole, but yes.  In regards to the link I posted: I have no idea what that article really states, since reading a bit of it makes it sound like pandering bullshit that should probably be shoved down the writer's throat in light of how absolutely ineffectual throwing money at the problem has been so far (which really is doing nothing but ensuring that the inevitable end will be even harder), but... I don't know.  This is probably half the reason my guts feel like they've been on the business end of a hand grenade, so I try not to think about it.  At all.

[ren]

That article is basically the complete opposite of your point of view but you seem to have covered yourself for that. You seem to be saying that you're right just because which is a pretty awful reason. Seriously though, without hiding behind doomsday prophecy, what's your actual reason for being against a stimulus package or bailouts or whatever it is you're against?

As for GM, you think they would've figured out how much this would cost before they lent out the first bit of money.

[Cobra951]

The biggest problem with that article is that it's ancient, going by the speed of disastrous developments since October.

I don't think anyone really understands what it's going to take to pull out of this tailspin.  There are only two very different approaches I can think of.  One, is to continue doing what they did for the last 8 years, which is basically no interference with or help for the private sector.  The other is to throw money at the problem with some semblance of intelligence, if any can be conjured up.  The first approach will lead to a full-fledged depression, and the country will eventually come out of it after years of untold suffering.  The second might do no better, but at least there's some possibility that it will have limited success. 

Whether the initial bailout plan under Bush was a partial success, a complete failure, or a catalyst for worse times ahead depends on who you talk to.  There is absolutely no consensus, and the worst thing you can do to yourself is listen to liberals and conservatives debate the issue.  You'll come away more confused than ever, since one side is saying the complete opposite of the other, and you have no way of knowing who's right (if anyone). 

At this point, in for a penny, in for a pound.  We're going to prop up the institutions we think we need in order to avoid complete economic collapse.  What's happening in Wall Street can't be trusted anymore than politicians, because those people would love to see a liberal administration fail.  They very much fear imposed strict controls and social obligations.  Fear drives bear markets.  But the value of things that have stocks associated with them is usually real, and if the market overreacts to the social policies, it will bounce back.  At some point, some rich investors won't be able to pass up the bargains.  One thing's for sure, though.  We can't create wealth by moving money around.  We have to get back to creating and producing in this country, in this country.  If GM is worth saving for one real thing, it's its industrial capacity right here, not in China, India or wherever else we shouldn't be raining our limited wealth.

[Quemaqua]

Before the vote, members of Congress were getting calls 100 to 1 against the bill.

How does that in any way go against what I said?  And what does the age of the article have to do with it?  I was talking about before, not now.

And what the fuck is this about doomsday prophecy?  You people utterly baffle me sometimes.  Where are you getting any of this?  I think the bailouts are a bad idea so now I'm a nut in the street with a sign saying the end is near?

[Cobra951]

The article was written before a lot more serious economic developments, like the unexpectedly severe contraction, and even before the current president was elected.  An October article on agriculture would be recent.  This one is outdated, like a map printed just before collapse of the Soviet Union and the regional wars that followed.  That's all I meant to say.

[Quemaqua]

But... that's what I was talking about.  I was saying people disagreed with it before, and whether or not changes since then have occurred, I still don't see a lot of support.  Most of the people I know are either in doubt or are outright against it.  And no, most of them aren't conservative (people seem to forget that almost everyone I work with is either liberal or just apolitical).

[Pugnate]

I know nothing has changed, but I just posted this item to let everyone know that GM is now really on the brink. Once it crashes... let's just hope and pray for the best. The immediate stock market ramifications could be intense.

[Cobra951]

But... that's what I was talking about.  I was saying people disagreed with it before, and whether or not changes since then have occurred, I still don't see a lot of support.  Most of the people I know are either in doubt or are outright against it.  And no, most of them aren't conservative (people seem to forget that almost everyone I work with is either liberal or just apolitical).

My gut feeling is against them as well.  I did the math on the projected bailout expenditures once before, and came up with what would be a decent full year's income for a hundred million families (if the money were simply distributed to the people rather than institutions).  What could be more stimulating than that?  My ambivalence comes from our experience with doing nothing at all.  All you have to do is remember the last 8 years.  With very few exceptions, like the idiocy of politically correct loan policies, this is all a result of uncontrolled private greed.  

(Allow me to recommend House of Cards, a CNBC 90-minute [without commercials] story on the causes and effects of the economic meltdown.  If nothing else, you'll get to know intimately what a CDO is, and why it's worse for the economy than the Islamic-fascists' successful attack on our financial center in NY.)

The conservative approach is to stay the course, to continue allowing greed to rule unchecked.  Let's have Darwin rule and watch failure take out the weak, which will devastate much of the regular citizenry, and with it the consumer-driven economy.  That rings very hollow with me now, though in the fading past I might have accepted it as the right thing to do.  I don't know what the right thing to do is now.  But if we're going to go down, let's go down swinging.  It makes no sense to sit back and do nothing.

[Quemaqua]

I agree wholeheartedly, though my approach would be to immediately arrest all the obscenely rich criminals who are robbing us while we fall further into decline, and unseat a lot of the equally rich, equally criminal politicians at the same time.  Then we could start thinking about what to do next with a cleaner slate.  Unfortunately, nothing has changed and greed remains uncontrolled.  The only difference is now other people are trying to get a piece, and are trying to use scare tactics to drum up donations for causes that have nothing to do with stimulating the economy at all.  It's just a power play.  The war between the parties has little to do with what difference is made to the American people.  The war goes on to see who ultimately gets the right to suck the most resources out of us.

[Cobra951]

I know there is a lot of that going on.  Nothing would please me more than to see Bernie Madoff swinging from a tree in Central Park.  That wont happen, and neither will a lot of other needed changes.  But I'm still hoping for some of them.  A change in tax laws to discourage outsourcing is supposed to be in the works.  I'll believe it when I see it.  That's one step I would welcome.  I will endure the global warming bullshit much more cheerfully if we start to protect good American jobs (and therefore the means to pay mortgages).

[Quemaqua]

Agreed.